Homebrew Why no proper 240p with PAL RGB in some of the new apps?

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This last year has been like a Renaissance for Wii homebrew. Lots of new apps and long awaited updates have appeared and things feel as exciting as in the late 2000's when Wii homebrew started. It doesn't matter if AI is involved in this development, I congratulate the people crafting these apps for gathering the knowledge and expending their time working on improving the Wii experience.

However, I am experiencig one big issue that hasn't happened up until now: some apps have added a 240p mode and when I turn it on I get a red tinted image. It's like playing on the Virtual Boy. I'm using a PAL Wii on a PAL CRT TV with RGB cable. It's possibly the best image quality you can get from a Wii, speacially in 240p, but the experience is ruined.

The only similar thing that happened in the past was when paying Virtual Console NTSC games in a PAL Wii with RGB. The image will have this red tint, but using a composite video cable will get the colours back in exchange for a blurrier and unstable image. Since that wasn't hombrew it felt like it's own thing that would remain like that forever. Luckily this has been fixed recently,
At that time, all the emulators that supported 240p just displayed right. When @SuperrSonic added "double strike" to Wiimc it displayed right. Wiistation added 240p and it works as expected. In 20 years I haven't encountered any other instance where I saw the red tint.

The first time was in @Mayo1990 's port of Quake III when the experimental 240p and 264p where added. 264p displayed well (except for the wrong aspect ratio and zoomed image) but 240p was red. Since Mayo1990 said it was experimental and that game was design for high resolutions I didn't give it much thought.
Then @emukidid added a 240p toggle to Wii64 and it worked well until release 1.4.2. From 1.4.3 onward I get the red tint again. I was able to fix it in the settings.cfg where you can force 240 putting "VideoMode = 2". This makes the menu display in 240p at default too and makes the 240p menu toggle useless (you can't go back to interlace mode).
And lastly, Seta-GX received the 0.4 update with 240p support. This release is specially troublesome because it runs at 480p by default and nothing displays on my CRT. With the right button sequence you can run a game in 240p mode but it's red tinted. You can't change to interlace either so this is the worst case scenario. Fortunately, Z-GX alternative works perfect in 240p.

Why is this issue sudently happening? Is it not easy to implement? Isn't documentation clear enough? Has a bug beeing introduced in the libraries? Is it not proper testing? Is it because developers can't test it with real hardware and equipment?
This souldn't be treated as a rant. I know developing these apps is a process that gets perfected throught iterations. I just want to warn the developers that this issue is happening in case they are not aware. I think this should be considered. I'm sure lots of PAL users are having this issue too. Maybe they can express themselves in this topic to point out the importance of the problem.

Thanks and take care.
 
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PAL... RGB...

240p is already a pain in the ass to work with considering that while the Wii is "capable" of outputting 240p, most modern Monitors/TVs scaletd won't accept such pretty low signal...

Then you add PAL + RGB which are things totally separated from 240p and you have a mix of specific cases where it works and when it doesn't.


You're literally asking: "wHy dEveLopErs cAnt TeSt iN eVeRy sIngLe MoNiTor In eXiStEnSEe If PaL RgB 240p wOrkS bEfoRe I hAve To tYpe 2 iN cFg fIle? ArE tHey lAzy?"

On top of this, there's a huge difference between Analog Signals being converted to Digital Signals.
 
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You're literally asking: "wHy dEveLopErs cAnt TeSt iN eVeRy sIngLe MoNiTor In eXiStEnSEe If PaL RgB 240p wOrkS bEfoRe I hAve To tYpe 2 iN cFg fIle? ArE tHey lAzy?"
That's not what I'm saying at all.
Let me rephrase it in short: "For 20 years, 100% of apps that displayed in 240p have been working perfectly (they still do!). Now there are 3 new apps/updates that have issues with PAL CRT at 240p with RGB. Wasn't that already figured out from like day one?" I was asking politely. I think it's remarkable and it affects to a great percentage of users.

I think the most valuable thing today that the Wii can offer is precisely beeing able to play all these emulators at the original resolution with the right aspect ratio and the best image quality. If the Wii isn't connected to a CRT then what's the point? Why bother having a 240p display mode then?

I mentioned the apps where this is happening and ways to circumvent it. It's not that the developers don't know how to do it or don't have interest in it. The funcionality is there for Wii64 (not as the developer intended) and ioQuake as 264p. Seta-GX is the weird one because I think it's the only app that runs at 480p by default. But even then there is the alternative of Z-GX which plays at 240p perfectly.

Maybe it is not that easy to implement, or there is no source to see how to do it or the details are confusing, or it's caused by a bug somewhere in the process, or the developers broke that part of the code while trying to improve something else. It's probably not the same answer for the 3 apps.


I call it: your Wii's cursed
There's definitely something about the memory in my Wii that works worse than the bast majority of other Wiis, as your ioQuake and NullDC4wii revealed (although I wasn't the only one). I thank you again for all the hard work in making ioQuake compatible with my Wii.

I don't know if my Wii is as special in this matter. I started this topic also to be able to check if there are more people in this situation (PAL Wii connected to PAL TV with RGB cable having red tint when choosing 240p in these specific apps).
I know about two users that reported a black and white image when playing at 240p in Wii64 and Seta-GX, but I don't know their setup.
I'll have to add that I'm not using the official Nintendo RGB cable but a cable from GAME wich I think it's a very reliable 3rd party.


I see now that the title I chose for the topic can be read more than a complain than an informative note.
"No proper 240p support with PAL Wii/CRT TV and RGB in some the new apps" would have been better.
 
Last edited by Sogun,
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Hi @Sogun,

As you already identified, there are a number of reasons why PAL 240p might not work.

Have you tried the latest Wii64 1.5.0 build? Extrems updated libogc2 with improved 240p support.

Besides that, I can only suggest that you attempt to build these open source software repos yourself, and make small changes until you discover what is causing the red tint. Then you can share your findings with the devs.
 
This last year has been like a Renaissance for Wii homebrew. Lots of new apps and long awaited updates have appeared and things feel as exciting as in the late 2000's when Wii homebrew started. It doesn't matter if AI is involved in this development, I congratulate the people crafting these apps for gathering the knowledge and expending their time working on improving the Wii experience.

However, I am experiencig one big issue that hasn't happened up until now: some apps have added a 240p mode and when I turn it on I get a red tinted image. It's like playing on the Virtual Boy. I'm using a PAL Wii on a PAL CRT TV with RGB cable. It's possibly the best image quality you can get from a Wii, speacially in 240p, but the experience is ruined.

The only similar thing that happened in the past was when paying Virtual Console NTSC games in a PAL Wii with RGB. The image will have this red tint, but using a composite video cable will get the colours back in exchange for a blurrier and unstable image. Since that wasn't hombrew it felt like it's own thing that would remain like that forever. Luckily this has been fixed recently,
At that time, all the emulators that supported 240p just displayed right. When @SuperrSonic added "double strike" to Wiimc it displayed right. Wiistation added 240p and it works as expected. In 20 years I haven't encountered any other instance where I saw the red tint.

The first time was in @Mayo1990 's port of Quake III when the experimental 240p and 264p where added. 264p displayed well (except for the wrong aspect ratio and zoomed image) but 240p was red. Since Mayo1990 said it was experimental and that game was design for high resolutions I didn't give it much thought.
Then @emukidid added a 240p toggle to Wii64 and it worked well until release 1.4.2. From 1.4.3 onward I get the red tint again. I was able to fix it in the settings.cfg where you can force 240 putting "VideoMode = 2". This makes the menu display in 240p at default too and makes the 240p menu toggle useless (you can't go back to interlace mode).
And lastly, Seta-GX received the 0.4 update with 240p support. This release is specially troublesome because it runs at 480p by default and nothing displays on my CRT. With the right button sequence you can run a game in 240p mode but it's red tinted. You can't change to interlace either so this is the worst case scenario. Fortunately, Z-GX alternative works perfect in 240p.

Why is this issue sudently happening? Is it not easy to implement? Isn't documentation clear enough? Has a bug beeing introduced in the libraries? Is it not proper testing? Is it because developers can't test it with real hardware and equipment?
This souldn't be treated as a rant. I know developing these apps is a process that gets perfected throught iterations. I just want to warn the developers that this issue is happening in case they are not aware. I think this should be considered. I'm sure lots of PAL users are having this issue too. Maybe they can express themselves in this topic to point out the importance of the problem.

Thanks and take care.
I use my Wii PAL consoles with RGB too. It’s true that some apps don’t account for this specific signal, but I don’t think it’s that hard to implement. Superrsonic himself took just four minutes to get that signal working for me in the WiiSX Silver emulator after I pointed out that the video was displaying with a red tint. So, I really don’t think implementation is that difficult. I’ll never understand why people emulate on the Wii if they aren’t going to play on a CRT; for me, the analog video signal is the only reason to play on a Wii.
I remember having to really struggle with BlueMSX to get a 240p analog video signal without the red tint. For instance, the space shooter *Super Star Shooter Wii*—a port of the Sharp X68000 doujin game—still displays with a red tint to this day when played using an RGB cable.
 
I call it: your Wii's cursed
I call it: PAL has always sucked and forever will.

Jokes aside, I'm grateful to live under the NTSC standards.

I’ll never understand why people emulate on the Wii if they aren’t going to play on a CRT; for me, the analog video signal is the only reason to play on a Wii.
Hardly a valid and popular reason, the Wii and its games support 480p natively. I emulate on both types of TVs by only taking my SD card to the other console, have the best of both worlds. But not everyone can afford the CRT space, much less have one as many people are hoarding them and reselling them as "vintage", depending on your region.
 
As I was writting this message I noticed that Seta-GX 0.4.1 has been released and fixes PAL RGB (or at least it works for me now).

@radicalten
I did try Wii64 1.5.0. It was in this version where I edited the settings.cfg to force 240p with right colours.
If "VideoMode = 0", the emulator runs at 480i and when you toggle 240p with the menu option you get the red tinted image in games.
If "VideoMode = 2", the emulator and games run at 240p with the right colours. If you put the 240p menu option on then the games have a red tinted image.
Version 1.4.2 was the last one where 240p menu option didn't make the image red.

@0arsoluto2
Is you setup the same as mine? PAL Wii, PAL TV and RGB cable? Can you try the apps that are giving me trouble in 240p mode so I can confirm if my Wii is cursed or not?
-Wii64 1.5.0 Check in the settings.cfg that "VideoMode = 0". Then once in the emulator turn 240p on in the menu. Finally load a game. The image should be red-tinted.
-ioQuake Load ioQuake-Wii for instance and select 240p on start up. The image should be red tinted. 264p has the right colours.

Tell me if there are other apps that have a red-tinted image so I can check.
I just tried Super Star Shooter Wii and I also get a red tint. I'm running version 1.1.0 which should work fine with the GameCube controller but I have to disconnected in order to play.
 
Last edited by Sogun,
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I only have a few apps on the hb channel, some I havent updated in a long while. But you can let me know how they behave in yourself and I will see if I can solve any problems you might have with them. Running a beta of the latest update of NewoZero right now;
NewoZero Beta v4.69 #wii #homebrew #gamedev
http://owensoft.net/project/newogame/beta/newozero.zip

let me know how it looks in 240p
 
I was just facing the exact same thing. Luckily, owning a few different CRT's to test with and already started to build a homebrew app to force video signals, will soon do more in-depth testing.
Retroarch is pretty alright with different resolutions, even for the 16:9 PAL (100Hz) CRT it works and corrects the format. But then crashes here and there while trying out CPS2 or switchhing games, not extremely userfriendly). The standalone emulators are also hit and miss somehow and also slightly outdated menu wise. So, I see some potential to modernize some aspects of the Wii in the 240p/CRT field, but I think just to have proper emulation running, the raspberry pi or a proper adapter, to have 15kHz 240p from a PC running, is superior.
 

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