Capitalism v Communism

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I'm not envious of Jeff's fortune, that's his money.
Nor am I. Doesn't change the fact that he should treat and pay his employees better, or the fact that he's a colossal wanker like every billionaire. You lose perspective on things with that much money and tend to start developing narcissistic and sociopathic viewpoints.
 
Nor am I. Doesn't change the fact that he should treat and pay his employees better, or the fact that he's a colossal wanker like every billionaire. You lose perspective on things with that much money and tend to start developing narcissistic and sociopathic viewpoints.
Dude just wanted to sell books to people. He built it and they came. He has a machine that's working, and probably doesn't actually oversee the majority of the decisions made. If you think Jeff sits at his desk, opens up a little UI, clicks on the wages slider and slides them all the way to the bottom, you're being a bit silly. It's a publicly traded company with a board of directors, those directors have other managers below them, and those managers have even lower managers under them. Jeff Bezos has a very considerably sized head that reflects a lot of the sun's rays, but it is not big enough to directly micromanage all that.

I will say that some middle managers in the company are quite hilarious, and I'm not sure what they do, exactly. The AmaZEN suicide booth gave me a hearty chuckle in recent memory - they were so proud of it. Hilarious.



Someone was paid to design that, and they were praised for it. I have to revise my previous statement - there's no shame in working hard, no matter the job, *except* this one. This department shouldn't exist. :lol:
 
To sum things up in a couple of sentences:

Sadly, your average human has limited knowledge/understanding of the wants/needs of anyone other than themselves, and will always value themselves, their family, and close friends over complete strangers. Combined with a reality in which there will always be scarcity, the result is that an truly community-minded economic system would never work in practice at a large scale.

Again, this doesn't say as much about the underlying system as it does the limitations of our fleshy monkey body and brain.
 
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I'm just going to state this, keep your economic systems (capitalism and communism) separate from your governing ones (democracies, monarchies,totalitarian,etc). So genocides and so on, that's decided by the governing system, that is a governing choice. If you can't separate it, you need to seriously need to reconsider about debating on this thread.


How 'bout .... NO.

I get that correlation doesn't prove causation, but hey Occam's Razor. 100 years is a very short period of time for Communism to rack up such a track record for autocratic mass-murdering regimes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes
 
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To sum things up in a couple of sentences:

Sadly, your average human has limited knowledge/understanding of the wants/needs of anyone other than themselves, and will always value themselves, their family, and close friends over complete strangers. Combined with a reality in which there will always be scarcity, the result is that an truly community-minded economic system would never work in practice at a large scale.

Again, this doesn't say as much about the underlying system as it does the limitations of our fleshy monkey body and brain.
That's a very simple explanation of why communism is incompatible with human nature, but I always found it inadequate in explaining the superiority of the capitalist model. It neglects the benefits of the profit motive or the benefits of competition, both of which incentivise innovation and progress.
 
I will say that some middle managers in the company are quite hilarious, and I'm not sure what they do, exactly. The AmaZEN suicide booth gave me a hearty chuckle in recent memory - they were so proud of it. Hilarious.
That's almost certainly an idea that was spawned at the top, and it is appropriate that Futurama's suicide booths would get their start at Amazon. Both hilarious and grim at the same time.
 
That's almost certainly an idea that was spawned at the top, and it is appropriate that Futurama's suicide booths would get their start at Amazon. Both hilarious and grim at the same time.
I believe it was actually an idea proposed by one of the warehouse workers that was then iterated upon until it became sufficiently stupid to publicise, much to my amusement. As the saying goes, "a camel is a horse designed by committe".
 
I believe it was actually an idea proposed by one of the warehouse workers that was then iterated upon until it became sufficiently stupid to publicise, much to my amusement. As the saying goes, "the camel is a horse designed by committe".
That also wouldn't be surprising, since they want to pretend to give employees a certain level of input while simultaneously not allowing them to make any major changes. It's not like more frequent/longer breaks were ever on the table, after all. I wouldn't be surprised if it was initially proposed as a joke and Amazon ran with it anyway.
 
I'm going to agree with @Hanafuda on this one. From what I've seen, Communism always devolves into dictatorship to some degree or some form of oppressive regime that drifts away from its initial promises once demigods are empowered and can revoke their promises.

The initial idea is that "the people / workers" run the market and the rich contribute more so everyone is equal....but "the people" slowly devolves into "the government", ruling party and the corrupt elite who aren't contributing that eventually hold positions of power to ensure it stays that way. Democratic viewpoints start to be viewed as "unpatriotic" and unwavering loyalty to the party becomes the enforced standard. Two examples are the most common in history: China and Russia.

With that said though, I would not mind more....socalistic practices being implemented here in the USA like healthcare and education. Also taking away every loophole that is being used like shell company shit to avoid paying taxes...in a perfect world I suppose. The rich that don't pay taxes will always have money to convince bribe the government they can keep their tax shelters

Democracy in America has lasted so long because we are always in a balancing act between communism (far left) and facism (far right.) One side being the dominant and sole power would be the end of our democratic identity. We need both sides to survive as either end of the spectrum turns into unelected leader.
 
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That's a very simple explanation of why communism is incompatible with human nature, but I always found it inadequate in explaining the superiority of the capitalist model. It neglects the benefits of the profit motive or the benefits of competition, both of which incentive innovation and progress.

Eh, this is an oversimplification that people rely on. I spent a long time in academia - trust me when I say that research and innovation would continue even without any money on the table. Most people who are truly pushing technology, innovation, and competition are not doing it for capital gain. Same with most things in the arts or entertainment. This should be even easier to understand today with the entire idea of influencers on YouTube/social media.

What capitalism DOES give you is a clear and direct incentive for people to do shitty jobs that they hate. Which is also something that will always have to happen, and thus necessary. But that's not quite as sexy an argument as "innovation and competition," so you don't hear it much.
 
Communism always devolves into dictatorship to some degree or some form of oppressive regime that drifts away from its initial promises once demigods are empowered and can revoke their promises.
Neither communism nor capitalism is immune to downfall by oligarchy and authoritarianism. We might be living through that downfall in the US right now, as nearly half of all voters endorse dictatorship.

Democracy in America has lasted so long because we are always in a balancing act between communism (far left) and facism (far right.) One side being the dominant and sole power would be the end of our democratic identity. We need both sides to survive as either end of the spectrum turns into unelected leader.
Whoever told you that lied to you. We have no communist or leftist party in the US. The Democratic party is a capitalist, center-right party. The Republican party has always been further right than that, but only in recent years have they been tilting toward outright fascism.
 
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Eh, this is an oversimplification that people rely on. I spent a long time in academia - trust me when I say that research and innovation would continue even without any money on the table. Most people who are truly pushing technology, innovation, and competition are not doing it for capital gain. Same with most things in the arts or entertainment. This should be even easier to understand today with the entire idea of influencers on YouTube/social media.

What capitalism DOES give you is a clear and direct incentive for people to do shitty jobs that they hate. Which is also something that will always have to happen, and thus necessary. But that's not quite as sexy an argument as "innovation and competition," so you don't hear it much.
I'll answer with another saying - "given enough money and time anyone can do anything, the question is whether that's worth it". The trick isn't just in achieving something, but rather in getting there down the most efficient, cost-effective path that yields the best results. Few things can incentivise that more than fierce competition, and while we're all competing, it's generally nice to have a prize and the end of the rat race. Of course there are people who will do such things regardless, even pro bono, simply due to their personal passion, or the satisfaction discovery brings. With that being said, one must ask if we'd have as many doctors if a doctor's wage wasn't what it is right now, given the degree of dedication it requires to become one, just to name one example. If you give to each according to their needs, as the "ideal" suggests, I don't see a whole lot of incentives to go down such an arduous career path besides deeply rooted interest. That's not to say that capitalism is the de facto ideal system for organising a social structure - it's all relative. You wouldn't run your family like that, you don't expect your mother or father to pay you for each and every task, and in turn, you don't expect young children to pay rent. It's specifically suited for organising larger groups that are subdivided into smaller units with (often competing) interests of their own, particularly if said groups far surpass Dunbar's Number in size. As you say, we are wired to only care about so many relationships in life - anything beyond +/- 150 becomes a blur.
 
Few things can incentivise that more than fierce competition, and while we're all competing, it's generally nice to have a prize and the end of the rat race
Except capitalism doesn't really do that. You can't have competition when you just buy everyone out or put them out of business by undercutting the other businesses by just leaning back on your immense wealth and profits. There's a reason very few places can contest with the likes of walmart, target, and so on. It's because the moment their is competition, Walmart will undercut them by giving insanely lower prices the competition cannot contest. Eventually run the competition out of business, and then re raise the price the moment said competition is gone, or even increase it further than the original price.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

essentially speaking, trying to even compete will result in a financial bloodbath.
 
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Except capitalism doesn't really do that. You can't have competition when you just buy everyone out or put them out of business by undercutting the other businesses by just leaning back on your immense wealth and profits. There's a reason very few places can contest with the likes of walmart, target, and so on. It's because the moment their is competition, Walmart will undercut them by giving insanely lower prices the competition cannot contest. Eventually run the competition out of business, and then re raise the price the moment said competition is gone, or even increase it further than the original price.
Ah, you're one of those "too big to fail" guys. Blockbuster called, they want their late VHS return fees. While you're at it, please return all the Betamax tapes and Laserdiscs you've borrowed, the keys for the Oldsmobile are on the Magnavox TV in the living room. The nearest Blockbuster is right next to Sears, America's biggest retailer (in the 80's, now down to some 223 stores in total after going through Chapter 11). The market is a wild place, you can be at the top and tumble right back down in the span of a couple years. Any roadblocks in the free market are set up by well-meaning government pencil pushers, no corporation is immune to being beaten in their own game, particularly if their business model isn't flexible enough to adjust to a rapidly changing business landscape. If they *are* flexible enough and they do compete in the realm of price and quality then the beneficiary of that conflict is the customer - there will always be new challengers.
 
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Ah, you're one of those "too big to fail" guys. Blockbuster called, they want their late VHS return fees. While you're at it, please return all the Betamax tapes and Laserdiscs you've borrowed, the keys for the Oldsmobile are on the Magnavox TV in the living room. The nearest Blockbuster is right next to Sears, America's biggest retailer (in the 80's, now down to some 450 stores in total after going through Chapter 11). The market is a wild place, you can be at the top and tumble right back down in the span of a couple years. Any roadblocks in the free market are set up by well-meaning government pencil pushers, no corporation is immune to being beat in their own game, particularly if their business model isn't flexible enough to adjust to a rapidly changing business landscape. If they *are* flexible enough and they do compete in the realm of price and quality then the beneficiary of that conflict is the customer - there will always be new challengers.
Let's all point and laugh at the guy who thinks this is the reality of modern-day capitalism, and not just the idealized version of it found only in libertarian wet dreams. Cronyism runs rampant, the market is fixed (rigged) in several ways, and no corporation has been tried on anti-trust violations since Microsoft, the one and only time it has happened in my lifetime. Certain people love to brag about all the "innovation" and "variation" that capitalism brings with it, but the truth is that one or two megacorps own all fifteen brands of any given product you can buy at the grocery store. We only get the illusion of choice, just as we often only get the illusion of freedom.
 
Ah, you're one of those "too big to fail" guys. Blockbuster called, they want their late VHS return fees.
Now that's just a bad argument. What killed blockbuster was failure to catch up with the times. They didn't really follow up when things started changing to streaming only ,and rentals were not much of a thing. And you want to know what killed them? Amazon, Netflix, etc. And they were extremely wrong.
 
Let's all point and laugh at the guy who thinks this is the reality of modern-day capitalism, and not just the idealized version of it found only in libertarian wet dreams. Cronyism runs rampant, the market is fixed (rigged) in several ways, and no corporation has been tried on anti-trust violations since Microsoft, the one and only time it has happened in my lifetime. Certain people love to brag about all the "innovation" and "variation" that capitalism brings with it, but the truth is that one or two megacorps own all fifteen brands of any given product you can buy at the grocery store. We only get the illusion of choice, just as we often only get the illusion of freedom.
I hope you realise that brands under the same umbrella *also* compete with each other. Heck, individual departments compete with each other.

For the record, the communist solution to the supposed problem of having too little choice (in the presence of an absolute abundance of choice) is to remove choice. Rather than have corporations competing with each other for the customer's favour, the communist solution is to remove competition altogether. I don't know how communism fanboys imagine actual communism looks like, but I've seen how it *actually* looks like - it's a bit like this:

You go into a store, you stand in a queue (since of course there's rationing, rationing always sets in eventually), you go to the dairy counter and you buy yoghurt made by the yoghurt brand, endorsed by the Party. That's it. This is on the proviso that there's anything on the shelf at all - in the final death throes of the system all that was available were matches and vinegar. That's the actual, real life result of the system. For God's sake, my elder sisters remember clear as day standing in the queue early in the morning with a string around their necks to buy toilet paper for the rest of the week - "grab as much as you can while you can, who knows when it'll be back in stock". This wasn't 200 years ago, merely 30-odd, we're not goldfish, our memory does go that far back.

Spare me the nonsense about lack of choice on the free market - if you want to create a competing brand, go do it. Make some cereal, put it in a non-gmo gluten-free cruelty-free biodegradable organic cardboard box and some hippy dippy dummy will buy it, it's not *that* hard. There are plenty of anti-corpo suckers ready for you to cater to them in a way a corporation cannot.
Now that's just a bad argument. What killed blockbuster was failure to catch up with the times. They didn't really follow up when things started changing to streaming only ,and rentals were not much of a thing. And you want to know what killed them? Amazon, Netflix, etc. And they were extremely wrong.
Netflix, the wee baby startup, which began as a rental service, killed Blockbuster, an industry giant that chose not to innovate. Thank you for reinforcing my point.
 
Now that's just a bad argument. What killed blockbuster was failure to catch up with the times. They didn't really follow up when things started changing to streaming only ,and rentals were not much of a thing. And you want to know what killed them? Amazon, Netflix, etc. And they were extremely wrong.
I think he was saying it's an outdated argument, as if 2008 was so long ago. Don't worry, all the corporations and big banks are totally playing by the rules now *wink* *wink*.
 
I think he was saying it's an outdated argument, as if 2008 was so long ago. Don't worry, all the corporations and big banks are totally playing by the rules now *wink* *wink*.
oh yeah, the big banks will totally fail... totally.... 2008 nosies
 

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