Hacking Are we setting ourselves up for the first Switch banwaves?

[RHOPKINS13]

I know that Fusée Gelée and ShofEL2 don't currently affect any data on the Switch, at least with the payloads that are currently released. BUT, according to their ShofEL2 writeup, when grounding pin 10, it acts as a "secret home button." Now, for those of us just using a wire/staple/paper clip to temporarily ground the pin to get into RCM mode, this probably isn't a problem. But some people are opening up either their Switch or their Joy-Con so they can solder a more permanent connection. Or they're using bentpinhax and leaving the pins bent. The idea is that afterwards all they need to do is hold volume up and hit the power button to boot into RCM mode.

My concern is when these people boot regularly into Switch OS and play online. Under "normal" circumstances, it would be impossible for someone to hit the "secret" home button. So what if Nintendo just checked to see whether or not it was being pushed? People using a temporary method wouldn't be affected, but if you used a more permanent method it would show up as being pushed. And then they could add your Switch to a long list of pending bans and one day it's a repeat of what happened when people where playing Pokemon Sun & Moon early.

As I said, this would only really apply to the people who are soldering their Switch or their Joy-Con. And all of this is speculation. Any thoughts?

 

[isoboy]

"I will not look for you, I will not pursue you, but if go online, I will look for you, I will find you and I will kill you."

 

[notimp]

Those are hard questions to answer. Current understanding is, that there should not be a "stored value" they can read out, if you have accessed the RCM. They probably also haven't got a way to check if pin 10 has been grounded (or is so - while you are running the system, with a "bent pin" right joycon).

But are we sure? No. Can we be sure? No. Will at some point some people be the first ones to get banned for using "something". Yes.

Thats really all we can say atm. Good luck.

With the current methods (except for 3.0.0 HBL) no system files are "added" or "permanently modified", this might change slightly - once the CFWs get released (or not, depending on implementation), chances are, that very low level implementations might not be detectable by Nintendo - but as soon as you are running CFW trying to access their web services - thats an entirely different set of bets. (You are less likely to win.. )

 

[Opoth]

I wouldn't dream of doing this with my main Switch. Bought a second one for homebrew that will never go online.

 

[Rune]

I dont think the entry points are detectable. Once you actually have a CFW running in the future, that might be detectable.

 

[RHOPKINS13]

Those are hard questions to answer. Current understanding is, that there should not be a "stored value" they can read out, if you have accessed the RCM. They probably also haven't got a way to check if pin 10 has been grounded (or is so - while you are running the system, with a "bent pin" right joycon).

Right, I'm not really worried about a "stored value" from prior RCM access. But the way f0f described it as a "secret home button" makes me wonder whether or not Nintendo can tell if it's grounded while the system is running.

 

[Rune]

Right, I'm not really worried about a "stored value" from prior RCM access. But the way f0f described it as a "secret home button" makes me wonder whether or not Nintendo can tell if it's grounded while the system is running.

Thats like wondering if Nintendo can tell exactly what buttons you press on your controller and how many time you pressed it. Without storing a value somewhere, I dont think they can.

 

[Armadillo]

I generally just assume the ban hammer is coming at some point. Don't want to get banned, don't tamper with your system.

 

[Rune]

That's why you invest in a 2nd Switch.

(I say "invest" because it makes it sound like a wise decision )

 

[RHOPKINS13]

Thats like wondering if Nintendo can tell exactly what buttons you press on your controller and how many time you pressed it. Without storing a value somewhere, I dont think they can.

For one specific "hidden" button that normally shouldn't be accessible? I think it would be all too easy for them to. They could include code for it in a system update, they may have already, as ktemkin already disclosed the vulnerability to both NVidia and Nintendo before it was released.

 

[EpicLPer]

Pin 10 is basically a "Home" button of the Switch itself, NOT of the Right JoyCon. So yes they could potentially look out for a constantly pressed Switch-Home button and then ban you that way since said button doesn't physically exist on the console and can never "accidentally" be pressed.

 

[notimp]

Right, I'm not really worried about a "stored value" from prior RCM access. But the way f0f described it as a "secret home button" makes me wonder whether or not Nintendo can tell if it's grounded while the system is running.

They shouldnt be able to run those kind of diagnostics remotely - but then, maybe they can. The issue here is, that you cant "reverse engineer" their entire operating system, and they can always patch in new code with new firmwareupdates.

Imagine this. If a bent pin controller would for some reason use up more battery than a non modified one, those things could be monitored, potentially. Currently this is a made up possibility - but if true, that might be a way for N to identify... those unknowns make it hard to predict that kind of stuff.
--

"Home button" most likely was just used to conjure up a mental image but who knows, maybe N has deep diagnositcs abilities "from the cloud" - in which case, you are f*****ked..

edit: I take it back. The posting above mine sounds more knowledgeable on this.

 

[reminon]

Shorting the pin doesn't change the visible functionality of the joycon itself. To ban a user who may have a partially defective joycon, that just happen to have a shorted pin 10 due to corrosion. Or maybe a child was too rough, and in some freak accident bent one of the pins over the other seems a bit much. They can ban and say they were hacking, but without proof, unwarranted bans would be a PR nightmare.

 

[Rune]

For one specific "hidden" button that normally shouldn't be accessible? I think it would be all too easy for them to. They could include code for it in a system update, they may have already, as ktemkin already disclosed the vulnerability to both NVidia and Nintendo before it was released.

Yeah, I guess if you put it that way. But even then, I'd bet there's nothing in the current firmwares that checks for this.

 

[EpicLPer]

Yeah, I guess if you put it that way. But even then, I'd bet there's nothing in the current firmwares that checks for this.

Keyword "current".

 

[Rune]

Keyword "current".

Sorry, I should've been clear. My point is if a future firmware can detect the pin being permanently grounded, then it could also possibly detect things if you only used it for a split second to trigger the exploit. In other words if the bans are coming, it probably wont make a difference if you use a paperclip or a more permanent mod.

 

[dubbz82]

Yes. We are. If you have up a console, an online ban should be outright expected. This is the case with any system. If they happen to not catch on, cool. If they slap you with an online ban....well..that's the risk you're taking and you should know that full well before doing anything outside of what Nintendo intends for it.

 

[Rune]

Yes. We are. If you have up a console, an online banking should be outright expected. This is the case with any system. If they happen to not catch on, cool. If they slap you with an online banking....well..that's the risk you're taking and you should know that full well before doing anything outside of what Nintendo intends for it.

I need to switch banks.

 

[tecfreak]

My point is if a future firmware can detect the pin being permanently grounded, then it could also possibly detect things if you only used it for a split second to trigger the exploit.

Thats not true. It makes a huge difference if the pin is shortend alle the time or only at boot to get into the RCM because at boot the switch firmware isn't loaded and therefore it can't detect anything at this stage. So yes, those who are making this modification permanently modifying their joycons may risk a ban if future firmwares will get the ability to detect this modification which should be as easy as detecting any other button that is beeing pressed.

 

[notimp]

Thats not true. It makes a huge difference if the pin is shortend alle the time or only at boot to get into the RCM because at boot the switch firmware isn't loaded and therefore it can't detect anything at this stage. So yes, those who are making this modification permanently modifying their joycons may risk a ban if future firmwares will get the ability to detect this modification which should be as easy as detecting any other button that is beeing pressed.

This. In theory. But praxis trumps theory. Also, only this - if the "permanent shortening" is easily detectable at a higher level (coded in to show up as a "button thats pressed" f.e.). Or if they can deduce it via other indicators (like the fictional example of amount of battery used). Which is why this stuff is unpredictable. You might not know what to mask - "until it is too late".