Hacking Is console hacking not illegal or what?

[notimp]

And this is the thing - its always been that way, but had to be laid out in legal terms again, because the public image of what a "hacker" is - was so far removed from "tinkerer", that judges had difficulties putting 2+2 together, and asked daddy to lay it out once more.. If you believe in the notion, that there alway is legislative progress as a result of the democratic system.

The only question that needed to be answered there was, if what "car mechanics", "farmers", "plumbers" did for more than 200 years, was still ok in the digital age - or all of a sudden the public should be made to conform to manufacturers rules - of what customers should be able to do with their products, long after they left company ownership. (Because customers bought them.)

It really never got a harder question than that. But for some reason, many people nowadays believe, that you should only use products for the purposes advertised.

Probably - because they really liked the advertising, or something.

 

[sarkwalvein]

Guess I can appease my friends who say "Taffy you're gonna get arrested for doing this stuff to your 3DS! Stop!"

That's dumb... unless you are hiding cocaine in your 3DS...

 

[erikas]

There's a reason this site separated itself from piracy. Modifying objects that you own is not against any law since you own them. Piracy, on the other hand, is condisered theft. For this reason launching an exploit and running your own homebrew in itself is not illegal and can't be considered illegal even if it enables piracy, as long as you're not actually doing piracy.

 

[subcon959]

It really never got a harder question than that. But for some reason, many people nowadays believe, that you should only use products for the purposes advertised.

Probably - because they really liked the advertising, or something.

I don't think it's that. If I had to guess, I'd say it's because of the extremely aggressive portrayal of such digital age companies. As with most public beliefs, the media takes a huge chunk of the blame.

 

[Taffy]

There are a lot of things that make better doorstops than whatever it is they're advertised as.

 

[Retrojunkies]

Because so far, I haven't seen any news about console hacker developer being arrested
I'm not taling about end user like me, I'm talking about engineer who develop those hack/exploit

Is it like not legal, but not illegal as well?
Is it only what you do with those exploit that can be illegal?

where was you during the PS3?

Console hacking as most will think is not illegal, matter of fact is YES it is illegal.

The console/software/hardware etc all have what you call T&Cs, the company sets out what you can/cant do with its software, when you buy a console you own the product, not the right to use it as intended.

You are not permitted to reverse engineer, exploit the hardware or make any modifications, in doing so you are in violation of the T&Cs and therefor no longer suppoted to gain access to certain features.

Now many sit there claiming well i bought my console, i own it, i can do what i like with it.

sure, you can throw it at a wall, you can piss on it, but end of the day the console is a product owned by the company which is its business.

if you decide to hack it, i guess nothing is stopping you, if you intend on doing so then you accept you are likely going to loose access to other features or be banned from certain features.

if you hacked a console and kept all the findings to yourself then no one would give a crap.

but when you come out acting like egohot did, then he wanted attention, he bragged, he mocked, then he b1tched when sony made an example of him and others who released the hacks.

hacks 99.999% lead to piracy and piracy is bad for any console (regardless if people cant accept to pirating and claim they only buy their games)

 

[sarkwalvein]

where was you during the PS3?

Console hacking as most will think is not illegal, matter of fact is YES it is illegal.

The console/software/hardware etc all have what you call T&Cs, the company sets out what you can/cant do with its software, when you buy a console you own the product, not the right to use it as intended.

You are not permitted to reverse engineer, exploit the hardware or make any modifications, in doing so you are in violation of the T&Cs and therefor no longer suppoted to gain access to certain features.

Now many sit there claiming well i bought my console, i own it, i can do what i like with it.

sure, you can throw it at a wall, you can piss on it, but end of the day the console is a product owned by the company which is its business.

if you decide to hack it, i guess nothing is stopping you, if you intend on doing so then you accept you are likely going to loose access to other features or be banned from certain features.

if you hacked a console and kept all the findings to yourself then no one would give a crap.

but when you come out acting like egohot did, then he wanted attention, he bragged, he mocked, then he b1tched when sony made an example of him and others who released the hacks.

hacks 99.999% lead to piracy and piracy is bad for any console (regardless if people cant accept to pirating and claim they only buy their games)

Most of your claims are actually wrong, I mean, contrary to what the law says.

AFAIK it is not illegal in most countries.
Also, going against the TOS is not illegal either, it only makes a good cause for stopping the service.
Hence, hacking is not illegal, but it could lead to your console being banned, your warranty voided, etc. as it is against the Terms of Service.

Yeah, the problem anyway is that those corporations have big money, big lawyers and big lobbyists.
In the end, though not illegal, they will try to pursue you and make your life difficult by brute force.
Let's say, you are right, but you still need to get into legal battles to prove it, and that costs money and time.
You might win those, but you need to put a lot of effort and money that will only come back after the end, and not everyone has the money or want to put the time and effort into it.

Big corporations are very Mafia style in that type of behavior if you ask me.

Deciding a knowledge question the Millennial way!

Some of the "answers" in here are so wrong and outright shameful, that it hurts reading them. But apparently most people in here believe in them and eat them up like if they were objective truth. Lets show them some advertisements, and hope that they buy stuff. You guys seriously have a problem - if you take that "decision process" to anything concerning legal matters. Its basic ignorance at display - nothing else.

Here are some of the cornerstones in all of this, and how things really work.

- HACKING is not illegal, if you call it reverse engineering, and you are applying it to products you own - without prior knowledge about said product that could have been illegally obtained (f.e. by information theft).

Lets explain why. Fundamentally - trying to understand things you own is not illegal. Although an entire generation of smartphone users tries their hardest to make it "feel that way". Trying to make them work differently - again, is not illegal. Fundamentally - they are your property once you bought them - not the companies, that sold them to you.

Taking that understanding - and even producing your own products that work EXACTLY like your competitors ones - isnt illegal. FRANKLY its EXACTLY what Compaq, HP and a few other silicon (*spit*) valley companies did - about 50 years ago - to help jumpstart the "PC revolution". They hacked and reverse engineered IBM computers bit, by bit - then sold their own "IBM compatible" mashines for cheap. Bill Gates (if you have ever heard of that name) made his fortune, by first selling an IBM compatible DOS (software that was written, not by him - for an architecture not created by those he sold it to - see: https://forwardthinking.pcmag.com/s...-dos-how-microsoft-got-the-ibm-pc-os-contract ) of all things, and not got it made, because he went with IBM all the way - but basically, because he embodied the clone makers infrastructure - and decided to sell software for whatever "compatible devices" those upstarter clonemakers produced. Fast forward a few years - richest man on the Forbes list.

If you want to look it up google "white room reverse engineering" and how it was used legally in court to make HPs and Compaqs behaviour back then legal.

- TOS are NOT legally binding agreements. You goofs. They are pseudo formal contracts, you cant change or negotiate on your part, companies use to remove themselves from as much legally binding responsibilities as possible - then say, you agree to them, if you click button - or use service. THE MOST that can happen, by you "breaking them" - is the company not providing you a service any longer. Which is perfectly their right - since they arent a government entity.

I know that becoming complacent service slaves, and following rules that someone just onesidedly made up, is the premier hobby of many young people in this generation - but please try to understand, that with buying products - you also buy certain ownership rights. Like - you'd theoretically have the right to take them apart, or repair them. And one such right also is figuring out how they work. Which interestingly enough f.e. is also why Linux, or the internet exist - but dont mind those - you'd be just as happy in your smartphone/facebook (formerly AOL) bubbles - getting "feels" on how the world works.

Also - and this might surprise you, you cant be made to sign a TOS just to use a product you bought. That would require you to sign said contract at the POS - which companies would not like. The closest we have come - as a civilization to circumvent that principle is current amazon products - which dont allow the user to do anything with - unless you "connect" them to an online service. Please understand, that you are still allowed to hack them - and that all Amazon can do about it, is to ban you from the service. Which is an issue - because Amazon is a horizontal Monopoly in many fields... Also something you could think about one day... But dont overdo it...

- If police raids you - you are not a convicted fallon - also, the reason given - might be important. Here is how this works. The police has no legislative power - at all. This is a little concept we call "separation of power" maybe you have heard of it - its at the base of every democracy on earth. If you go by what that brick Geohotz Youtube videos look like - you might sure think he was involved in illegal activities - but you havent seen the court papers, have you? Also, he might have been (I dont follow that bricks career), but console hacking was not one of them.

- If you buy a phone - and the carrier locks it to his network, to make more money of of you, turns out device hacking actually was made explicitly legal - to remove that. Under US law in 2014 ( https://thehackernews.com/2014/08/hurray-unlocking-your-cell-phone-is_1.html ) and the reason this had to be written out, was - that there are too many idiots in this world - who only know what the word hacker means to them, based on watching hollywood movies - and news reports from people who put hoodloms in hoodies, because they have to produce pictures. Which brings us to my last point -

- Hackers are not "illegaly breaking into companies servers" all the time, "stealing their data" - they are at its core - trying to understand technological systems. Play around with them, change their behavior. If what they do is not "theft", "fraud", "solicitation" - or any number of made up "cybercrimes" that came with the catchy "cyber, cyber" phrase to begin with - what they do, generally speaking is legal. There are specific side laws, the industry had to lobby into existence (like "circumventing DRM is illegal") that exist on the level of "non criminal law" (the same thing that you and your neighbor use in court to settle differences) that has the equivalent power of giving you a slap on the wrist and taking all your months lunch money. Thats about it.

If you get into illegally infiltrating company networks on the other hand - its a different story. If thats the entire image you have of "hackers" in your mind - then leave homebrew communities now. Nothing is more effective as an insult.

- Last point. If all people followed the millenial mindset of "don't think about things", "follow your feelings", and "follow all rules, that are suggested to you", - no one but maybe an old professor in an institutional tower would be allowed to understand how things work anymore. I'm glad that you are aiming for that world - but please dont make me talk to you much more, this evening...


I hope this leads to a better understanding of the matter -

n.

also - never forget, that the entire world is not the US of A, and rules in other parts of the world might be different. Thank you. What a wonderful usage of asking "- or what?" questions on the web you got out of your smartphone there...

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------


Not you.

 

[erikas]

where was you during the PS3?

Console hacking as most will think is not illegal, matter of fact is YES it is illegal.

The console/software/hardware etc all have what you call T&Cs, the company sets out what you can/cant do with its software, when you buy a console you own the product, not the right to use it as intended.

You are not permitted to reverse engineer, exploit the hardware or make any modifications, in doing so you are in violation of the T&Cs and therefor no longer suppoted to gain access to certain features.

Now many sit there claiming well i bought my console, i own it, i can do what i like with it.

sure, you can throw it at a wall, you can piss on it, but end of the day the console is a product owned by the company which is its business.

if you decide to hack it, i guess nothing is stopping you, if you intend on doing so then you accept you are likely going to loose access to other features or be banned from certain features.

if you hacked a console and kept all the findings to yourself then no one would give a crap.

but when you come out acting like egohot did, then he wanted attention, he bragged, he mocked, then he b1tched when sony made an example of him and others who released the hacks.

hacks 99.999% lead to piracy and piracy is bad for any console (regardless if people cant accept to pirating and claim they only buy their games)

the point of illegal mean you can be sent to jail. a company cannot write rules like "If you do this to your console, we can jail you". When people say illegal, I'm pretty sure they're talking about fines and prison sentences.

 

[Noctosphere]

I also though that the famous "when you buy it, you only buy the right to use it" was now from teh past

 

[DinohScene]

Circumventing DRM is illegal, modifying your console isn't.

As long as you're not circumventing copy protections, you're not doing any wrong.

 

[notimp]

I also though that the famous "when you buy it, you only buy the right to use it" was now from teh past

Question. When you buy something. Do you give money to then own it, or do you want to buy its "usage rights"?

You can have bot - for the same price apparently.

And if your answer is "well its more convenient to buy a digital copy - that only gives me usage rights" (i.e. you dont buy the data, you buy a ticket to an experience enabled by the data) - well, you have decided this on your own.

But may I suggest - not to use the word "buy" then, but rather "rent" or "lease"?

Because if you present that as an alternative to ownership (lets make it simple - take "land ownership" f.e.) you get laughed in your face, by a more conservative audience..

Sure - you have to insist on your rights, for others not to take them away - but that never prevented most millennials to find never being able to own a thing in their lives (its a "rent" lifestyle.. ) to seem very attractive to them, right? In fact the more the cost of a good trended towards zero (cost of 1,4 GB of Netflix data delivered to you - as you also pay for "internet"), the more they thought they should part their with money for that..

If you havent realized it by now - companies dont like to grant you ownership rights, if they dont have to - its a legal back and forth.

If you can be happy with "consumption subscriptions" - well, than thats it. You have been sold a ticket to an amusement park. For everything you'll ever pay for in your life.. Once you die, your entire life just vanishes as disolving virtual contracts with companies... *poof* you never existed. Your flat will be re-rented within two months. Very ecological.

(Att. this has become actionism at this point. To make you think about - things that are not just granted in life.. )

Out of this a single question emerges, that goes like this: But arent the people that still act like, they can own stuff - doing this illegaly? Those hackers?!

Out of this another question arises: Why on earth do you believe that? Has your "feels" spider sense steered you wrong again? Maybe because - all you really cared about was easy, sometimes even free, but mostly easy - and "best" (but as advertised, or seen by your peers - not really as a result of understanding and learning stuff)... ?

If I say - think of the image of a hacker - and the first thing that comes up is an image you've seen in movies or media, because they found it hard to illustrate people reading code, and would much rather go with hoodies sporting big made up "hack the system" logos - you've lost. Sadly - this is how "consensus of the masses" works. It can be entirely fact free, but still feel just right..

I also thought that black hoodies were illegal, until I unmuted the TV... But thats a story for another day..

 

[The Real Jdbye]

sooo... let me know if i'm right
developping hack such as rom loader is perfectly legal since it's just another third party app
but since it wasn't authorised to be used on the console by the company, it is then bannable
am i right?

That would technically be illegal under the DMCA (which obviously doesn't apply everywhere, but other countries than US may have similar laws, I'm not sure about Canada) due to the circumventing copy protection part.

 

[osaka35]

The only thing they own is the code. Mod away, add your own code, etc. The line is drawn at infringing on their protected code and distribution of their protected code (downloading games from a source other than them, for example), but that rarely sees prosecution unless you're the one sharing those things. This is why physical media has more rights than digital media. With physical, they cannot pull the code license on the physical media since they can't break into your house and steal your junk. Digital, they retain the ability to invalidate the code license (see P.T.).

Now the tricky legal bit is breaking the locks they create. To circumvent or break locks is something they keep trying to make illegal (just look at apple trying to make jailbreaking illegal), but hasn't really stuck in the states as far as consoles go. But I've seen prosecution for hacking someone's wifi network, for example, even if nothing was done as a result. Potential harm is good enough for some judges. And Geohot didn't just break the locks, he shared the results, and they could prove his direct actions led to money loss or equivalent (well enough, at any rate).

Right now you're fine, but keep an eye out for any future developments. These companies aren't going to stop trying to change the laws and end-user rights.

 

[Proust]

illegal
ɪˈliːɡ(ə)l/
adjective

1. 1.
   contrary to or forbidden by law, especially criminal law.

 

[notimp]

I've just read DMCA section 1201 ( https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201 ) and its legal interpretations, and I have to say that US law is truly idiotic in what it tries to describe and encompass in here.

Best legal interpretation I could find in 20 minutes on the net: https://reverseengineering.stackexc...ing-reverse-engineering-techniques-acceptable (Its actually good)

So DMCA 1201 says that you are not legally allowed to circumvent "technological means that control access" - if that work is protected by the copyright holder saying it is.

It then has an excemption (f) for reverse engineering encompassing all the stuff I mentioned, learning about how things work, making stuff intercompatible with third party (f.e. open source) software, allowing innovation to happen ... The whole nine yards. This exception then should not trigger, if you have to circumvent a technological means to control access.

Which is idiotic.

Thank you for whoever lobbied that part in - btw. Apparently this is how things were laied out for 10 years - before the "for security research" exception was lobbied in - we've linked the news articles of.

Its idiotic, because - all a company had to do to prevent any form of "getting to understand the device" from happening, is to put a "technical means to control access" in front of it (you know - like a password... maybe a key?) - and say that it was "intellectual work under copyright" - and the reverse engineering exception would not trigger.

The best judicial system in the western world... not.

Hint, if you put in legal exemptions, make sure they cant be denied by what they are supposed to be exempt from.

Still legal in the US, for 2 years though - because of an exception, that says - that if you say its "security research", its ok. *facepalm*

You guys should really do something about your politics, or something...

edit: Made a mistake, exemption is indeed an exemption - and presumably has been since the creation of the DMCA. So its been legal all along. Why some outlets insist, that it needed the new exemption that allowed the same for "security testing" is actually beyond me. Why it was portrait by media outlets as "hacking your devices is now legal" is beyond me as well - if it should have been, all the time under exemption (f).

The exemption for "security research" (j) should only touch cases like these: https://www.eff.org/de/pages/grey-hat-guide It also encompasses hacking networks while (f) does not. For "our purposes" (hacking products) exemption (f) should suffice.

 

[jt_1258]

You can do whatever you want with things you own. Modding your console is not illegal but it goes against the company's term of service so they can void your warranty rights.

Running open sourced homebrews is not illegal. Copyright infringement (using backup loader to run commercial games) is however illegal.

it's not running backups that's illegal it's how most people get said backups that's illegal
as in pirating the backups online instead of making the backups yourself

 

[the_randomizer]

It's a grey area, but no one's ever been persecuted for modding a console, they're not going to send hired goons to break down your door and interrogate you.

Running unauthorized programs/homebrew is hardly piracy, but will violate the EULA (good luck having them hold that up in court). ROMs, ISOs, however, do whatever you want, not my problem.

 

[Noctosphere]

It's a grey area, but no one's ever been persecuted for modding a console, they're not going to send hired goons to break down your door and interrogate you.

yea ik, i was actually asking about those who develop those hack, who release them to public

 

[the_randomizer]

yea ik, i was actually asking about those who develop those hack, who release them to public

It's definitely a grey area, but I don't hear of them getting jailed.

 

[Noctosphere]

It's definitely a grey area, but I don't hear of them getting jailed.

yea thats why i asked, i never heard about any case either