Hardware Why make a console that is backwards compatible ?

[Foxi4]

The software can be scaled to hardware spec like PC games.

Can the storage also? I can already see those handheld consoles with BluRay drives or those wonderful FLASH-based home consoles. Unless you'd want to see strictly Digital Distribution, in which case fair enough.

Another problem is that you can only scale so much - you can lower the resolution or the level of detail, but the amount of active A.I's or game logic is much harder to adapt without affecting the gameplay. At the end of the day, the games will still push the handheld to the limit and compatibility will hold the home console back.

 

[tronic307]

Can the storage also? I can already see those handheld consoles with BluRay drives or those wonderful FLASH-based home consoles. Unless you'd want to see strictly Digital Distribution, in which case fair enough.

Another problem is that you can only scale so much - you can lower the resolution or the level of detail, but the amount of active A.I's or game logic is much harder to adapt without affecting the gameplay. At the end of the day, the games will still push the handheld to the limit and compatibility will hold the home console back.

It may be possible for Nintendo to go back to cartridges by 2017-18, as flash memory could be the norm by then. It seems like they've always wanted that anyway. Failing that, there's always digital. Mechanical drives are becoming obsolete in either case.
Also, Nintendo doesn't make enough games to support both console and handheld.

 

[Foxi4]

It may be possible for Nintendo to go back to cartridges by 2017-18, as flash memory could be the norm by then. It seems like they've always wanted that anyway. Failing that, there's always digital. Mechanical drives are becoming obsolete in either case.
Also, Nintendo doesn't make enough games to support both console and handheld.

They won't magically start making more games just because they'll have two sibling devices - they'll make the exact same amount of games, they'll just be available for both systems. The librabry will not change. Nintendo should consider following industry standards so that third-party gives a damn about their systems instead of re-inventing the wheel and trying to make their First-Party C.P.R methodology work on a grander scale.

 

[tronic307]

There's no lack of third party support for Nintendo's handhelds, so a unified architecture nearly guarantees third party support for the console variant, and Nintendo fans will actually buy the games, unlike console multiplats. Sony and Microsoft want to emulate the monster PC, but those are becoming obsolete fast. I have a huge gaming PC, but then I'm old school.

Imagine just how powerful Nvidia Tegra could be in 5 years.

 

[Foxi4]

There's no lack of third party support for Nintendo's handhelds, so a unified architecture nearly guarantees third party support for the console variant, and Nintendo fans will actually buy the games, unlike console multiplats. Sony and Microsoft want to emulate the monster PC, but those are becoming obsolete fast. I have a huge gaming PC, but then I'm old school.

Sure tronic, I'm sure third-party is going to downgrade all of their games to the "portable game on a home console" level just for Nintendo instead of releasing multiplats on PC and other consoles.

Imagine just how powerful Nvidia Tegra could be in 5 years.

...and? If it continues to be on Android, it will continue to have no relevance because there's a million-quadrillion other devices that play the same games (and most people actually already own one, if not several). Why would I buy a dedicated gaming device to play games that I could play on my smartphone, tablet, Smart TV etc.? Why would I make this additional expense instead of getting a controller for $20 and getting the exact same experience?

 

[tronic307]

Every Nintendo handheld from GBA onward has been ARM-based, no Android required. An ARM Cortex A57 can easily hang with an AMD Jaguar; the architecture that powers PS4 & Xbone. Why else would AMD be releasing ARM-based Opterons? This is just what ARM has now. Imagine what super-tablet CPU architectures they'll produce in half a decade. If Nintendo tosses out PowerPC, and man they really need to, they're left with ARM, from GBA to 3DS and likely beyond.

And they'd sooner release a PowerPC handheld than go anywhere near x86.

 

[Foxi4]

Okay tronic, keep on thinking that. Don't mind me, I'll just drop a little truth bomb here.

Servers are switching to ARM-based CPU's because ARM is low-cost, easy maintenance, low-heat and low-power, not because it's particularly powerful. A server runs 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, it eats immense amounts of electricity - this electricity costs companies which run huge server rooms with hundreds of machines millions of dollars - they want to cut down on that cost.

In a clock-by-clock or even sheer DMIPS comparison, x86_64 kicks ARM out of the window any time of day and night, but this performance comes at high costs. How many DMIPS does an Intel i7 perfom each second per MHz per core? Anywhere between 8 and 11. And ARM Cortex A15? 3.

 

[RodrigoDavy]

call it nostalgia for an age that never existed (see also how some people treat 1950's America) and that tends to drive me nuts.

There's something called nostalgia, but there's also a certain feeling with no name which makes people despise what they didn't get to experience. It's kind of the same feeling I have for the Mega Drive... I didn't experience it as a kid and nowadays I can't seem to find a game I enjoy for it, they all seem cheap arcade experience to me. That said, every game I tried I didn't spend more than 10 minutes playing before I decided it was crap.

 

[trumpet-205]

You read the quote; Nintendo is unifying handheld and console architectures. Give me a candidate that fits the bill besides ARMv8-A. Plus, AMD will be selling powerful ARM APUs in the near future. We've seen what Tegra K1 can do, and that's ARM.

It'll be a long time before ARM is competitive against high-end x86. AMD in particular is investing ARM APU for micro-server, server where high-end performance is not needed. Server cares a lot about efficiency, since it adds up and even some watts can translates to thousands of dollars in electric bill.

When Sony is designing PS4, they narrowed down to x86_64 and MIPS.

 

[FAST6191]

If you had a PCE/TG16 in Europe then yeah it was rare in Europe, if you played an N64 then it was nothing particularly notable.

 

[tronic307]

In a clock-by-clock or even sheer DMIPS comparison, x86_64 kicks ARM out of the window any time of day and night, but this performance comes at high costs. How many DMIPS does an Intel i7 perfom each second per MHz per core? Anywhere between 8 and 11. And ARM Cortex A15? 3.

A15? that's not even 64-bit, and even though it has a 40GB address space, it can only do 4GB per application (1 game), ruling it out unless Nintendo limits the ram to 4GB. And how is Intel even in the running here? i7 is to costly and power hungry, and Atom is too weak, even for a Nintendo handheld, they have no traction in the mobile space. You only need compare ARM Cortex A57 with AMD Jaguar (PS4, Xbox One).

AMD Jaguar: 3.6 DMIPS/MHz
ARM Cortex A57: up to 4.76 DMIPS/MHz

Fits Nintendo's M.O. ...Perfectly.​

​

 

[Foxi4]

A15? that's not even 64-bit, and even though it has a 40GB address space, it can only do 4GB per application (1 game), ruling it out unless Nintendo limits the ram to 4GB. And how is Intel even in the running here? i7 is to costly and power hungry, and Atom is too weak, even for a Nintendo handheld, they have no traction in the mobile space. You only need compare ARM Cortex A57 with AMD Jaguar (PS4, Xbox One).

AMD Jaguar: 3.6 DMIPS/MHz
ARM Cortex A57: up to 4.76 DMIPS/MHz


Fits Nintendo's M.O. Perfectly.

​

AMD Jaguar DMIPS rates are completely imaginary (or at least I haven't seen any benchmarks of it whatsoever in a PC environment). I'll look into it, but until then, let's assume it is 3.6-or-so - it sounds acceptable.

Moreover, do note that your source mentions 4.1 DMIPS up to 4.7 DMIPS, depending on the implementation. That being said, fair enough sir, you can squeeze out comparable MIPS performance out of the bottom-of-the-barrel netbook x86_64 core and a top-of-the-line ARM core - congratulations?

 

[trumpet-205]

Remember that both Sony and Microsoft paid $100+ per chip on Jaguar, and A57 is a micro-server chip positioned higher than Jaguar. Nintendo will pay even more than what Sony and Microsoft are paying to use A57.

 

[tronic307]

Nintendo will pay even more than what Sony and Microsoft are paying to use A57.

Not in 2017. It will be "withered technology" by then.

 

[trumpet-205]

Not in 2017. It will be "withered technology" by then.

By 2017, A57 would be obsolete. By then there are even stronger x86 and ARM processor available (assuming we can brake the barrier of silicone less than 5 nm).

Look, in today, ARM is simply not competitive against high power x86 in terms of performance. ARM is widely appreciated because of its energy efficiency, not because of its raw performance. By 2017, who knows maybe ARM will become a viable contender for next-gen console.

And please stop using DMIPS as a way to measure performance. It is no different than using GFLOPS to measure gaming performance. There are plenty example where A scored higher than B but ended performing slower than B.

 

[tronic307]

By 2017, A57 would be obsolete. By then there are even stronger x86 and ARM processor available (assuming we can brake the barrier of silicone less than 5 nm).

Look, in today, ARM is simply not competitive against high power x86 in terms of performance. ARM is widely appreciated because of its energy efficiency, not because of its raw performance. By 2017, who knows maybe ARM will become a viable contender for next-gen console.

And please stop using DMIPS as a way to measure performance. It is no different than using GFLOPS to measure gaming performance. There are plenty example where A scored higher than B but ended performing slower than B.

The 3DS uses an ARM 11 CPU (2002). Need I list every Nintendo device which was based on decade-old tech?

We'll likely see 22nm from any Wii U successor, unless Nintendo breaks their pattern of halving the process node with each successive console generation.

Plus, Android desktops are on the horizon.

 

[RodrigoDavy]

The 3DS uses an ARM 11 CPU (2002). Need I list every Nintendo device which was based on decade-old tech?

ARM11 is not a CPU, but a family of CPU that started in 2002, but evoluted for many years. Using your logic I could as well say that the original Xbox used a decade old technology because it used a Pentium CPU. (Pentium processors were first released in 1993, but we all know Pentium processors were still high-tech in 2002)

No one knows exactly the CPU that the 3DS uses, only that it is dual-core and clocked at about 268MHz. It could be based in a modern processor though, as far as I know ARM11 chips were still being developed few years ago. Heck, my Samsung smartphone from 2012 had an ARM11 cpu and it wasn't even dual-core

 

[trumpet-205]

The 3DS uses an ARM 11 CPU (2002). Need I list every Nintendo device which was based on decade-old tech?

A57 is a specific chip, ARM11 is not. ARM11 is a microarchitecture. The chip used in 3DS, Nintendo 1048 0H, is based on ARM11.

Also, ARM chip that is positioned for desktop is expensive at this point. You apparently don't get this message. Nintendo would've to sell its console at a price even higher than $300 for a comparable ARM chip. Nintendo target audience is budget minded consumer. Using ARM would've going against its marketing strategy.

 

[tronic307]

In a clock-by-clock or even sheer DMIPS comparison, x86_64 kicks ARM out of the window any time of day and night, but this performance comes at high costs. How many DMIPS does an Intel i7 perfom each second per MHz per core? Anywhere between 8 and 11. And ARM Cortex A15? 3.

Gekko, Broadway, Espresso? 2.31 DMIPS/MHz

 

[WiiCube_2013]

When I see this topic's title I imagine that the next console generation will be even worse than it is already.

Xbox One:
- Cannot save media files on HDD it has to be on the cloud.

PS4:
- Cannot play mp3 files.
- Cannot save files to the HDD like you could on PS3.

Wii U:
- Allows to play Wii games (great) but no GameCube compatibility or port to connect the NGC controller.

It's disappointing that Xbox One defies itself with the "all-in-one" due to being unable to have backwards compatibility with 360 and/or OX games. It's not like it used the expensive CEL thing like Sony had on PS3.

These consoles are just becoming so restrictive. :-/