Console Wars: Modern Warfare

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What makes you uncool is you bought the arguement here.

I couldnt give less of a shit about the N64, the only games I ever played on mine were Mario Party, OoT, MM. Nothing else interested me (other then Megaman 64, but Legends 2 was better.) if anything I agree with you. Whats pissing me off is that the whole fucking 5 page argument had little to nothing to do with the news, and on top of that you feel the need to pull it over to another front, where you can get more support for no fucking reason.

When you become an individual who knows where the stupid arguments end and the funny shit begins, then call yourself level-headed.
The argument was directly connected to the WiiU's situation and I outlined why - it was just dragged unnecessarily long. The Wii U's and the N64's situation is very similar right now - developers are neglecting it and it might get even worse once new, primarily x86-based engines enter the scene. The Wii U is the odd one out and unless the SDK will be of superior quality, it's in deep trouble. Also it was just 2 pages, not 5 if I remember correctly. I would be disappointed if a console with such promise (mostly due to the controller) ends up with a petite library consisting mostly of first and second-party titles - that was the connection with the thread.
 
The argument was directly connected to the WiiU's situation and I outlined why - it was just dragged unnecessarily wrong. The Wii U's and the N64's situation is very similar right now - developers are neglecting it and it might get even worse once new, primarily x86-based engines enter the scene. The Wii U is the odd one out and unless the SDK will be of superior quality, it's in deep trouble. Also it was just 2 pages, not 5 if I remember correctly. I would be disappointed if a console with such promise (mostly due to the controller) ends up with a petite library consisting mostly of first and second-party titles - that was the connection with the thread.

Ok, 2 instead of 5? Thats much better, but still why drag it over here man, and I see what you mean, but that could also be said for almost every other console they made since the SNES. Why pick on the N64, and once again, why bring it over here :angry:
 
Ok, 2 instead of 5? Thats much better, but still why drag it over here man, and I see what you mean, but that could also be said for almost every other console they made since the SNES. Why pick on the N64, and once again, why bring it over here :angry:
The N64 and the Gamecube were both pretty poor - it's a widely-known fact. I brought it up because the situation was similar. The conversation was now moved here not to derail the EA topic any further than it's already derailed.
 
I think most of the confusion lies in the fact that when you think of success you think too much of commercial success. The n64 and the gamecube failed to achieve significant market share and they failed to attract the interest of game developers. But they both had some importance in their time.

I don't know much about the gamecube, but about the N64:
- It popularized the use of analogs and vibration in controllers
- It had games like Super Mario 64, 007: Goldeneye and Super Smash Bros whose elements were a large influence to many other games
- Although it was not a commercial success, this console managed to become very popular gaining a cult status

I would like to add that if we judge success exclusively by numbers, we might get to wrong conclusions like the case of many painter, writers and artists who largely influenced art but were not recognized during their lifetime and, thus, didn't make a penny off their work. One classic example is the portuguese writer Luíz Vaz de Camões, which is the Shakespeare of the portuguese language, but died starving in the streets.
 
I think most of the confusion lies in the fact that when you think of success you think too much of commercial success. The n64 and the gamecube failed to achieve significant market share and they failed to attract the interest of game developers. But they both had some importance in their time.

I don't know much about the gamecube, but about the N64:
- It popularized the use of analogs and vibration in controllers
- It had games like Super Mario 64, 007: Goldeneye and Super Smash Bros whose elements were a large influence to many other games
- Although it was not a commercial success, this console managed to become very popular gaining a cult status

I would like to add that if we judge success exclusively by numbers, we might get to wrong conclusions like the case of many painter, writers and artists who largely influenced art but were not recognized during their lifetime and, thus, didn't make a penny off their work. One classic example is the portuguese writer Luíz Vaz de Camões, which is the Shakespeare of the portuguese language, but died starving in the streets.
If I thought specifically of commercial success, I'd think of profits and again, that's not what I'm talking about. Profits aren't just measured by sales - they're measured by the relation between sales and the profit margin.

If anything, I'm talking about the market share which is not a measure of profit, not by any means - it is a measure of popularity and the userbase at the time of release.

The N64 may have introduced the use of the analog stick (only had one, and it was introduced by a much earlier console series but let's just roll with the N64 since the contemporary form-factor of the analog stick is indeed derrived from the N64 one) but the console that popularized its use and the setup we know today is the PlayStation with its DualShock controller. The controller was in fact so popular that it barely changed and its design continues to be used to this day.

I already said that it had about 30-40 games worth mentioning (at least on first glance) in its library and SM64, GoldenEye and SSB were three of them - that's still not a whole lot in comparison.

Very popular is not the word I'd use with its market share and its status may be cult now but so what? I will continue to judge the console by its numbers as it's the measure of a given console's success or failure during its time.

To have a better look, and what better way to do that than by using pie charts?

pYhXZEj.png

Here we have a global piechart where Saturn the Embarrasment and Nintendo 64 the Failure can clearly be seen in comparison to our great victor, the PlayStation. There is a grand total of 144,28 million consoles out there, the PlayStation having 71.03% of this pie, the Nintendo 64 having 22,82% of it.

We're going to ommit the Saturn in the rest of our market share analysis from now on because we should not disturb the dead, plus it only really sold well in Japan.

In Europe, the Nintendo 64's situation is completely dramatic:
Q0Defo7.png

There are 40,12 million PlayStation users and only 6,76 million Nintendo 64 users (85.58% consoles are PlayStations) - it's hardly "limited success", it's actually quite tragic.

The situation isn't any better in Japan:
VZVw9vR.png

Here we have 21,59 million PlayStation users and only 5,54 million Nintendo 64 users (79,57% consoles are PlayStations) . It's definitely not as tragic as in Europe but it's certainly nothing to boast about.

...but if things weren't that great for the Nintendo 64... why does the Internet love it? Let's have a look. I bring forth to you the one and only region where this console didn't completely kick the bucket:
nCBcGd9.png

Yup, America. Being an American invention and being predominantly controlled by American users and media, the Internet usually shows us the American perspective on the Nintendo 64. In North America the system did considerably better than anywhere else, selling 20,63 million units in comparison to the 40,78 million units of the PlayStation (66.40% consoles are PlayStations, lowest percentage in all three regions) - that's more than the cumulative sales of the entire Japanese and European sales.

With those pie charts in mind, we can blatantly see that the only place where the Nintendo 64 was relatively "successful" was North America - no objective person is going to say that the system recieved global praise when for all intents and purposes it did not. The Nintendo 64 was widely ignored in Europe and barely noticed in Japan - those are two out of three regions where it was sold.

Again, regardless of whether or not the console was a commercial success for Nintendo, meaning whether or not it brought profits, it was not popular - it did not have a considerable share of the market in any of the regions and as such its userbase was very limited. I can understand users from North America thinking that since the Nintendo 64 was moderately popular in their region (reaching half the popularity of the PlayStation, in fact) it must've been popular elsewhere too, but in-depth analysis shows that it wasn't.

North America is not the belly button of the world - when you look at the situation from a global perspective, the Nintendo 64 was hardly a successful system and its popularity stems from the only region where it sold moderately well, meaning North America - a highly-influential area from a cultural perspective due to the spread of the Internet and its model of Mass Media.

Now, you're going to argue that "the Nintendo 64 was a successful system because it brought profits to Nintendo - it made money so it was not a failure", but that's crippled logic. Why? Let me elaborate. Is a well-known, widely-popular, universally-acclaimed Actor #1 who acts in numerous plays and movies less successful than Actor #2 who was lucky enough to star in one film, happened to make money off it and never starred in any other film ever again? No, that's not the case. Actor #1 is successful, Actor #2 is a nobody who starred in *1* film that happened to sell.

Moreover, everybody seems to mention the alleged profits the Nintendo 64 generated but frankly, I'm yet to see any data actually showing them. All I found were consolidated sales of the Game Boy and the Nintendo 64 - that's vague data because the Game Boy sold great wheras the Nintendo 64 didn't sell. You can't use that as an argument, the profits may have been generated by the Game Boy, moreover, they're directly connected to the profit margin as well as the licensing fees. Where is the data you people continuously speak of and can I have a look? Because if you can't support an argument, you can't use it.

//CHART_WARS, because pie charts are AWESOME!
 
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//CHART_WARS, because pie charts are AWESOME!


{Maths teacher mode}Pie charts should not be represented in 3d/perspective like that as it can trick people into thinking the nearer sections are larger than the ones further from the apparent viewpoint.{/Maths teacher mode}
 
{Maths teacher mode}Pie charts should not be represented in 3d/perspective like that as it can trick people into thinking the nearer sections are larger than the ones further from the apparent viewpoint.{/Maths teacher mode}
Which is why I added exact percentages - the 3D charts are here for the purpose of looking pretty.
 
Which is why I added exact percentages - the 3D charts are here for the purpose of looking pretty.

Now I am always up for a fine example of "statistics -- it is lying but you are commended for it" but I am not entirely convinced it is the case here. Now if you had put the N64 right at the back the conversation would have ended at a passing nod.
 
Now I am always up for a fine example of "statistics -- it is lying but you are commended for it" but I am not entirely convinced it is the case here. Now if you had put the N64 right at the back the conversation would have ended at a passing nod.
...so if I change 3D charts to 2D ones, 22,82% of the global market share is going to be a bit less embarrasing? :tpi:

(I'd also like to add that somewhat accidentally I've put the N64 on the more "favourable" side on most of the charts - it looks like it had a big share of the market... it totally did not. :tpi:)
 
The charts are misleading because they fail to include other consoles, throwing the market shares off scale.

Also, they are boring.
The charts cocern only one generation of consoles. There was only one other console on the market within that generation at the time, and that'd be the Saturn. All of the sales data concerning the Saturn that I found was "Worldwide Consolidated" so I couldn't put it in the charts from given regions, only in the Worldwide Marketshare chart which is why I opted for the "N64-to-PS1" ratio for the rest instead, omitting the Saturn users per-region altogether. The sales totals are still reflected by the chart in each region, as such they are accurate.

Also, they are boring.
 
I opted for the "N64-to-PS1" ratio instead, omitting the Saturn users altogether - the numbers are still reflected by the total sales numbers in each region, they are accurate.
So they are off-scale, misleading, don't represent the actual market spread at the time, and boring. Stop it.
 
So they are off-scale, misleading, don't represent the actual market spread at the time, and boring. Stop it.
They represent the actual market spread outside of Saturn users - they would be off-scale if Saturn users were marked as either PlayStation or Nintendo 64 users but they weren't - they were excluded from the pool of console users altogether.
 
~CHARTS CHARTS CHARTS~
About your North American theory, even in Brazil where everyone and their dogs had a PlayStation (mostly due to piracy :tpi: ) the N64 was still quite popular. And another point, I don't think the PS1 would be that popular if it wasn't for piracy. The 16-bit generation total sales were still smaller than PS1 sales alone.

You're not trying to proof the N64 wasn't good, you're trying to prove that the fact that the PS1 existed means the N64 should be completely ignored and forgotten. Quit your fanboyism to yourself, Foxi! :P

Also, you completely missed my point in my other post (or chose to ignore it). :closedeyes:
 
They represent the actual market spread outside of Saturn users - they would be off-scale if Saturn users were marked as either PlayStation or Nintendo 64 users
No, then they would just be incorrect. I demand you include an "other" sector that includes the shares of other consoles, or switch to bar graphs. :angry:
 
About your North American theory, even in Brazil where everyone and their dogs had a PlayStation (mostly due to piracy :tpi: ) the N64 was still quite popular. And another point, I don't think the PS1 would be that popular if it wasn't for piracy. The 16-bit generation total sales were still smaller than PS1 sales alone.

You're not trying to proof the N64 wasn't good, you're trying to prove that the fact that the PS1 existed means the N64 should be completely ignored and forgotten. Quit your fanboyism to yourself, Foxi! :P

Also, you completely missed my point in my other post (or chose to ignore it). :closedeyes:
I'm merely showing how a console can be allegedly a profitable venture and still not a successful gaming system. To be a successful gaming system you need games, for games you need a market share and userbase as well as a comfortable SDK environment that would be enticing for third-party, for being profitable, you need a good profit margn.

In the immortal words of Master Yoda, "profitable gaming system does not a good gaming system make" - the fact that a console makes money does not automatically make it good. I draw a line between commercial success and a success as a gaming system. It's by no means fanboyish - it's supported by release lists, developer interviews and sales data. I'm not a fanboy, I like the 30-40-odd good N64 games. :tpi:
 
I'm merely showing how a console can be allegedly a profitable venture and still not a successful gaming system. To be a successful gaming system you need games, for games you need a market share and userbase as well as a comfortable SDK environment that would be enticing for third-party, for being profitable, you need a good profit margn.

In the immortal words of Master Yoda, "profitable gaming system does not a good gaming system make" - the fact that a console makes money does not automatically make it good. I draw a line between commercial success and a success as a gaming system. It's by no means fanboyish - it's supported by release lists, developer interviews and sales data. I'm not a fanboy, I like the 30-40-odd good N64 games. :tpi:

To be fair, the N64 and Gamecube fiasco was the reason that Gradiente stopped representing Nintendo in Brazil, this was around 2002 and as of today Nintendo has no official representant here.
 

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