Though we knew all the way back in May that this was coming, the exact numbers remained a mystery for prospective Nintendo gamers in the UK. If you happen to have been living under a rock, let me fill you in. The price of the Switch 2 is set to go up next month. For those of you in the US, Canada, and EU, the exact amount has been known for a few months now, with the US getting the worst deal looking at percentage increase. You can find a reminder of these increases below:
United States: $449.99 ➜ $499.99 (11% increase)
Canada: CA$629.99 ➜ CA$679.99 (7% increase)
Europe: €469.99 ➜ €499.99 (6% increase)
Nintendo have today confirmed the numbers for those of us in the UK, and they're not quite as bad as I was expecting.
United Kingdom: £395.99 ➜ £419.99 (6% increase)
The numbers are relatively in line with what was announced for Canada and Europe, showing a 6% increase. As with other regions, these prices are set to come into effect from the 1st of September, giving you a little under two weeks if you're still on the fence about buying before it gets a touch more expensive.
They are insanely litigious about everything. Also nobody likes when Disney are doing these things either. Like the time they almost sued a man for putting Spider-Man imagery on his sons grave, who loved Spider-Man that much (Only reason they didn't is because he was forced to remove it). That Disney? You really think ANYONE likes it when Disney does it? Do you really think comparing them to Nintendo is doing them any favors? It just proves what I am saying.
One simple example is Nintendo shutting down a fighting competition that was made for charity some time ago, because Smash was going to be played there. Also Emulation is not piracy. People using it to pirate is a completely different thing. Going after them is scummy, especially the way Nintendo does it. I don't know about you, but sending literal goons to your address and making threats to financially ruin someone with a drawn out lawsuit (because legally they have little to no ground and they know it) is as scummy as it gets.
That is what happened with Ryujinx. There was no leaked code in there and there was no support for piracy in any way from the developers of it, yet Nintendo attacked them with all might. Not to mention that, if Nintendo was ever to lose builds and source code of their games, they would snatch up the decomp projects with zero credit and most certainly *pirate* the games themselves. Do not defend them for scummy shit they are doing.
As for prices, outside Japan, pretty much everything is far more expensive. From games, to consoles......everything. They are selling a goddamn Mario themed alarm clock for $110.
No one is forcing you to buy stuff, if you don't like them, don't buy their stuff, but also don't try to play their stuff,
Most people do use emulation for piracy, I never had problems with emulation but what was happening with the Switch was abusive.
The alarmo isn't just a mario themed clock if that's what you were getting to. It's a fun prop and only who wants it, buys. Sony and Microsoft also have their absurd prices on branded products, heck, sony even makes you buy specific headsets or adapter just because (not to mention the whole physical stuff nowadays).
Nintendo is doing what most companies do, it does affect me since I simply like games and buy what I want, so I honestly do not care.
No one is forcing you to buy stuff, if you don't like them, don't buy their stuff, but also don't try to play their stuff,
Most people do use emulation for piracy, I never had problems with emulation but what was happening with the Switch was abusive.
The alarmo isn't just a mario themed clock if that's what you were getting to. It's a fun prop and only who wants it, buys. Sony and Microsoft also have their absurd prices on branded products, heck, sony even makes you buy specific headsets or adapter just because (not to mention the whole physical stuff nowadays).
Nintendo is doing what most companies do, it does affect me since I simply like games and buy what I want, so I honestly do not care.
Most people using emulators to pirate, does not make emulators illegal, nor does it make ethical or justified to make life ruining threats to people developing them. Only 'abusive' things for Switch was what Yuzu devs did. Outright giving TOTK roms to people before game even came out and using leaked code in their emulator. While I do not like that Nintendo went after them, what they did was scummy and illegal, so I will not defend them at all. Ryujinx and pretty much every other emulator they went against was not the case.
You also should care...... There is no reason why you shouldn't expect companies to do better than they are doing now. Also being a 'fun prop', does not make it in any way a product that is worth that money. It just doesn't. Nothing about that thing justifies its price. "Fun prop" shouldn't cost even half of that price.
I am aware that both Sony and XBOX have absurd prices, hence why I am not buying their products, or supporting them in any way and am criticizing them at every turn. XBOX has been a complete waste of time for 2 gens in a row now and Sony from my perspective, outside Astro Bot and Helldivers 2, didn't release a single worthwhile first party title at all this gen. Their "Pro" controller is basically a scam, far bigger one than that goddamn alarm clock, I give you that. PS5 Pro is also an overpriced money grab. Hence why I am on PC and never bought and will not buy any Playstation or XBOX.
Only Nintendo stuff I own is DSi XL and N3DSLL that I bought second hand this January and July. Got a good deal on both of them. Nice machines. Naturally jailbroken and all games are 'sourced' in a way you can imagine, however since there is quite literally not a single way to give Nintendo money for those games, I have little qualms about it. They aren't loosing a sale and I certainly will not pay $40 for a 2nd hand 10yo game, from some prick reseller.
Switch does not interest me much in general, but homebrew on Switch 2, once jailbreak happens will be nice. Would be funny to install Linux on it and play my Steam library with FEX and Proton, I am sure, but eh.
It seems we fundamentally have different perspectives on the topic.
Most people using emulators to pirate, does not make emulators illegal, nor does it make ethical or justified to make life ruining threats to people developing them. Only 'abusive' things for Switch was what Yuzu devs did. Outright giving TOTK roms to people before game even came out and using leaked code in their emulator. While I do not like that Nintendo went after them, what they did was scummy and illegal, so I will not defend them at all. Ryujinx and pretty much every other emulator they went against was not the case.
You also should care...... There is no reason why you shouldn't expect companies to do better than they are doing now. Also being a 'fun prop', does not make it in any way a product that is worth that money. It just doesn't. Nothing about that thing justifies its price. "Fun prop" shouldn't cost even half of that price.
I am aware that both Sony and XBOX have absurd prices, hence why I am not buying their products, or supporting them in any way and am criticizing them at every turn. XBOX has been a complete waste of time for 2 gens in a row now and Sony from my perspective, outside Astro Bot and Helldivers 2, didn't release a single worthwhile first party title at all this gen. Their "Pro" controller is basically a scam, far bigger one than that goddamn alarm clock, I give you that. PS5 Pro is also an overpriced money grab. Hence why I am on PC and never bought and will not buy any Playstation or XBOX.
Only Nintendo stuff I own is DSi XL and N3DSLL that I bought second hand this January and July. Got a good deal on both of them. Nice machines. Naturally jailbroken and all games are 'sourced' in a way you can imagine, however since there is quite literally not a single way to give Nintendo money for those games, I have little qualms about it. They aren't loosing a sale and I certainly will not pay $40 for a 2nd hand 10yo game, from some prick reseller.
Switch does not interest me much in general, but homebrew on Switch 2, once jailbreak happens will be nice. Would be funny to install Linux on it and play my Steam library with FEX and Proton, I am sure, but eh.
It seems we fundamentally have different perspectives on the topic.
You lost me at the part where going after an emulation group that is profiting from your brand and sharing leaked rom is scummy and illegal. Bruh, If I live with you then I can totally take some your work, submitted it to a different company, cashing in some money and it's definitely fine and dandy, if you try to stop me? well well that's pretty scummy of you and that's illegal btw.
You lost me at the part where going after an emulation group that is profiting from your brand and sharing leaked rom is scummy and illegal. Bruh, If I live with you then I can totally take some your work, submitted it to a different company, cashing in some money and it's definitely fine and dandy, if you try to stop me? well well that's pretty scummy of you and that's illegal btw.
You lost me at the part where going after an emulation group that is profiting from your brand and sharing leaked rom is scummy and illegal. Bruh, If I live with you then I can totally take some your work, submitted it to a different company, cashing in some money and it's definitely fine and dandy, if you try to stop me? well well that's pretty scummy of you and that's illegal btw.
You misunderstood. I did not defend them. I think what Yuzu team did was beyond stupid and that Nintendo was right to take them down for it, despite me not really "liking" it because it is in my interest that there are more emulators around. Maybe I didn't express myself properly there.
Reading back, I see why you would misread. By "they" in that sentence, I meant Yuzu team, not Nintendo. They had all legal justifications to take them down........For obvious reasons. I have no idea how did they get so cocky that they think they could not only share ROMs unpunished, but ROMs of a LEAKED UNRELEASED MAJOR game and even brag about it in public.
I don't know if there was ever another instance of a major emulation team doing something so stupid, so brazenly.
You misunderstood. I did not defend them. I think what Yuzu team did was beyond stupid and that Nintendo was right to take them down for it, despite me not really "liking" it because it is in my interest that there are more emulators around. Maybe I didn't express myself properly there.
Reading back, I see why you would misread. By "they" in that sentence, I meant Yuzu team, not Nintendo. They had all legal justifications to take them down........For obvious reasons. I have no idea how did they get so cocky that they think they could not only share ROMs unpunished, but ROMs of a LEAKED UNRELEASED MAJOR game and even brag about it in public.
I don't know if there was ever another instance of a major emulation team doing something so stupid, so brazenly.
On the other note. Do we know exactly what went down with the Ryujinx? Last time I heard about it was that Nintendo actually came to the dev's house to "discuss". Did the guy speak up about what happened? If everything is kept under wrap then I'd say that is a peaceful resolution.
I know you said Ryujinx and "other emulator" to group them together but I don't think there was any other "innocent" emulator, they always have some kind of catch to them once you actually read about the case.
On the other note. Do we know exactly what went down with the Ryujinx? Last time I heard about it was that Nintendo actually came to the dev's house to "discuss". Did the guy speak up about what happened? If everything is kept under wrap then I'd say that is a peaceful resolution.
I know you said Ryujinx and "other emulator" to group them together but I don't think there was any other "innocent" emulator, they always have some kind of catch to them once you actually read about the case.
I would be speaking from memory, since it's been a while since it happened, but what went down is pretty much Nintendo "asking" the dev to sell the project to them.
Lead dev is from Brazil and not particularly wealthy as you might expect, so any legal battle to defend is something that he could not afford to do, even when legally, he did nothing wrong. You could say it was 'peaceful', but it's as peaceful as a super power pointing their nukes at you while 'asking' to agree to an agreement.
In case of Ryujinx, there really was NOTHING. They were as clean as it comes. Nintendo simply abused their ability to bankrupt their opposition in this case. Nintendo would have very hard time winning a lawsuit, but that only works if their opponent can actually afford to do so. It's a very standard tactic and a massive flaw in pretty much every judicial system. Those without money will have a reaaaaaaaaally hard time defending themselves against major corporations in the court of law. That is why you will see gofundme campaigns and such popping up, when massive controversy occurs. In this case, the man simply did not want to risk his whole life pretty much on fighting Nintendo and it's something that is hard to blame him on.
When it comes to Yuzu, no actual lawsuit occurred, but that is because that case was really completely unwinnable. Nintendo didn't even need to fight against the emulator at all. Simply attacking them over copyright infringement from the dissemination of the TOTK ROM would be enough to put them down. So they (Yuzu devs) just gave it to them and gave up.
Now, I may be wrong, but from what I understood and saw........Ryujinx really did nothing illegal, unless emulation itself somehow becomes illegal, which very much is not the case (and if it was......well......no emulator would really exist today).
If anyone knows anything more, I would love to hear it.
I would be speaking from memory, since it's been a while since it happened, but what went down is pretty much Nintendo "asking" the dev to sell the project to them.
Lead dev is from Brazil and not particularly wealthy as you might expect, so any legal battle to defend is something that he could not afford to do, even when legally, he did nothing wrong. You could say it was 'peaceful', but it's as peaceful as a super power pointing their nukes at you while 'asking' to agree to an agreement.
In case of Ryujinx, there really was NOTHING. They were as clean as it comes. Nintendo simply abused their ability to bankrupt their opposition in this case. Nintendo would have very hard time winning a lawsuit, but that only works if their opponent can actually afford to do so. It's a very standard tactic and a massive flaw in pretty much every judicial system. Those without money will have a reaaaaaaaaally hard time defending themselves against major corporations in the court of law. That is why you will see gofundme campaigns and such popping up, when massive controversy occurs. In this case, the man simply did not want to risk his whole life pretty much on fighting Nintendo and it's something that is hard to blame him on.
When it comes to Yuzu, no actual lawsuit occurred, but that is because that case was really completely unwinnable. Nintendo didn't even need to fight against the emulator at all. Simply attacking them over copyright infringement from the dissemination of the TOTK ROM would be enough to put them down. So they (Yuzu devs) just gave it to them and gave up.
Now, I may be wrong, but from what I understood and saw........Ryujinx really did nothing illegal, unless emulation itself somehow becomes illegal, which very much is not the case (and if it was......well......no emulator would really exist today).
If anyone knows anything more, I would love to hear it.
That's why I said if we know exactly what happened. All of what you just said is just head canon.
You can't say nothing in this case. At the end of the day, it's still a software that enable the vast majority of its user piracy of current hardware. If the owner comes to your house to ask you to stop or even just a letter then im sure stopping is the respectful thing to do. Especially if it's a developer we're talking about. I'm also a dev and I had my share of asking for other devs to stop what they were doing and others asking me to stop what im doing. It's actually very peaceful. All interactions were always something like this:
"Hey, im a dev of xxx, I worked hard on this project, what you're doing right now is hurting me financially, can you stop? Thanks"
"Thanks for contacting, I really respect your work, didn't realize it'd be bad for you. I'll stop now"
I'm paraphrasing but it always went down like that, no friction at all. You might think that they can "well, what im doing is legal so fk you" but NO DEVELOPER will ever say that, not the one that actually worth their salt. Even if Nintendo is an indie company or just another lone developer, the dev has a high chance of respectfully stop. This is me also head canon but it's probably a combination of both respect and fear of retaliation since again, what you're doing (emulation) is not exactly legal (more below)
You seem to misunderstanding something. Emulator was never legal. Everyone in the internet using that argument always reference the Sony case against some cheating device back in the 90s which has nothing to do with today emulation. It's a grey area where the status quo is being kept by both the emulator's devs and the hardware companies. They only tolerate each others. I suggest watching a video by a lawyer on youtube called Moon Channel or something where he breaks this down perfectly.
Most ppl use emulator for piracy, i'm sure no one would argue with this, but we don't have the actual data or specificly these hardware company don't have that data cause these emulator don't have telemetry (or even if they have it it's impossible to determine if the user uses a valid copy of the game, only the hardware manufactor can do it) so it's a stalemate for them. But looking at things lately, there will appear some idiots that will break the current state and enable the final blow to the emulator scene.
That's why I said if we know exactly what happened. All of what you just said is just head canon.
You can't say nothing in this case. At the end of the day, it's still a software that enable the vast majority of its user piracy of current hardware. If the owner comes to your house to ask you to stop or even just a letter then im sure stopping is the respectful thing to do. Especially if it's a developer we're talking about. I'm also a dev and I had my share of asking for other devs to stop what they were doing and others asking me to stop what im doing. It's actually very peaceful. All interactions were always something like this:
"Hey, im a dev of xxx, I worked hard on this project, what you're doing right now is hurting me financially, can you stop? Thanks"
"Thanks for contacting, I really respect your work, didn't realize it'd be bad for you. I'll stop now"
I'm paraphrasing but it always went down like that, no friction at all. You might think that they can "well, what im doing is legal so fk you" but NO DEVELOPER will ever say that, not the one that actually worth their salt. Even if Nintendo is an indie company or just another lone developer, the dev has a high chance of respectfully stop. This is me also head canon but it's probably a combination of both respect and fear of retaliation since again, what you're doing (emulation) is not exactly legal (more below)
You seem to misunderstanding something. Emulator was never legal. Everyone in the internet using that argument always reference the Sony case against some cheating device back in the 90s which has nothing to do with today emulation. It's a grey area where the status quo is being kept by both the emulator's devs and the hardware companies. They only tolerate each others. I suggest watching a video by a lawyer on youtube called Moon Channel or something where he breaks this down perfectly.
Most ppl use emulator for piracy, i'm sure no one would argue with this, but we don't have the actual data or specificly these hardware company don't have that data cause these emulator don't have telemetry (or even if they have it it's impossible to determine if the user uses a valid copy of the game, only the hardware manufactor can do it) so it's a stalemate for them. But looking at things lately, there will appear some idiots that will break the current state and enable the final blow to the emulator scene.
Headcanon? That is...... what happened.... If you think otherwise, find information yourself, ig.
"Respectfully" asking is a myth and you are giving Nintendo too much credit. Besides that, there is exactly zero legal or moral argument you can make against people creating emulators to perfectly recreate and simulate targeted hardware. Besides that, emulators are critical for game preservation and making these games playable once hardware used to run it stops working, which is inevitable.
You are also making an argument that emulators hurt sales, linking it to piracy, but that was......proven to be false. You can find EU studies that prove that video game piracy does not lead to loss in sales. Those that pirate, were never customers in the first place. And that is for piracy itself, emulators being possible to use for that.....is not very relevant. Not only do I not agree, but you are just wrong.
Also it is very disingenous to claim that I am making up headcanons, while presenting something that is far less likely, with Nintendo's known and factual history of litigious actions and patent trolling (like they are doing with Palworld). Also, I don't think it's your place to speak on behalf of devs, like they are a monolith or like you know them. I know of cases where devs would be fine even if their games were pirated, just so that they could be enjoyed by another, so what you speak there collapsed on that merit alone.
I am not misunderstanding anything. You are just woefully misinformed and uninformed on legality of it in general. Emulators and emulation is legal. Precedents have been set decades ago. They always were legal. At worst they are in an untested legal gray zone, but illegal.......ABSOLUTELY NOT. Everyone is using that argument because there are cases that set precedent. Even without that case, there is zero laws that forbid emulation. Cases where emulators break the law is only when it's coming shipped with console BIOS, firmware and encryption keys ('illegal' is a misnomer, merely in the gray zone, because this part is untested) that must be sourced either by yourself from your console or pirating of course, however emulators do not provide those........ever......... Now, if they were happened to be reverse engineered, there would be zero legality issues with shipping those out, because of laws regarding reverse-engineering. If you think you can claim THAT is illegal, that would pretty much destroy countless pieces of software if it were the case......which is not.
[I]Sony Computer Entertainment v. Connectix Corporation[/I], 203 [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.3d']F.3d[/URL] 596 (2000), commonly referred to as simply [B]Sony v. Connectix[/B], is a decision by the [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Court_of_Appeals_for_the_Ninth_Circuit']Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals[/URL] which ruled that the copying of a copyrighted [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BIOS']BIOS[/URL] software during the development of an [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulator']emulator[/URL] software does not constitute [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement']copyright infringement[/URL], but is covered by [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use']fair use[/URL]. The court also ruled that [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony']Sony[/URL]'s [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation']PlayStation[/URL] trademark had not been tarnished by [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connectix']Connectix Corp.[/URL]'s sale of its emulator software, the [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Game_Station']Virtual Game Station[/URL].
There is nothing to argue about emulation itself. It is legal. What most people use it for, is not relevant for legality of emulation and emulators themselves. "Final blow" without some insane astro turfing and new laws, cannot do anything to emulators. As I said already, only thing that must be tested is encryption. Nintendo does not wanna mess with that, because if they lose, they are completely fucked.
I do not understand why do you give Nintendo such massive benefit of the doubt, when their history has proven that when dealing with legal actions, they are not nice, kind or at all respectful. I also do not understand why do you think developers at all make any decisions regarding this matter. They almost never do. They shut down a charity event for fucks sake.......They are KNOWN to be petty and litigious. The whole business with Palworld should have informed you that they NEVER play nice.
Besides that, do you really think just because they 'asked nicely' would make Ryujinx devs to just GIVE THEM THE WHOLE THING or even stop working on it? Something they spent years working on, just......giving it away...... You are being naive.
the law is only when it's coming shipped with console BIOS, firmware and encryption keys ('illegal' is a misnomer, merely in the gray zone, because this part is untested) that must be sourced either by yourself from your console or pirating of course, however emulators do not provide those........ever.........
Well, arguably, Dolphin technically does regarding the bolded part, since iirc it includes the Wii Common Keys (or used to, anyway, assuming they change it with a later release version), which can only reasonably be obtained by extracting them from a Wii console. (Go ahead - TRY to guess what the keys are with absolutely no info on length, format, or how they interact with copy protection on Wii discs). It's actually what complicated things when the devs sought to release Dolphin on Steam. Valve was informed by Nintendo upon contacting them that Dolphin infringed on Nintendo's rights under the DMCA (likely due to the common keys), and Valve advised the Dolphin devs to sort out the issue with Nintendo before proceeding.
Speaking of which, while precedent/laws are in favor of emulator devs when it comes to reverse-engineering BIOS and similar (as was shown with Sony v. Connectix), it's more murky when it comes to circumvention of copy-protection measures that don't rely solely on the BIOS file* (same with console jailbreaks, given Sony v. Hotz was settled before a ruling could be determined regarding the legality of jailbreaking consoles). Even what most current emulators are doing is potentially legally grey at best, since they require such circumvention to run ISOs or ROMs if said ISOs/ROMs have any encryption whatsoever. The only scenarios where such circumvention wouldn't be needed would be if:
the ISO/ROM was decrypted by the dev/pub already (or decrypted through the user's own system using a legally-acquired copy of the game, though this also falls into the legal grey area, since there's very few specific exceptions, and home/personal use is not one of them), or
the ISO/ROM never had any encryption in the first place.
It's one of the reasons why the 3DS emulator Azahar only supports specific 3DS file types. The dev team doesn't want to deal with the legal issues of handling encrypted ROMs - which would involve code that would need to be dumped from a legally-owned 3DS/2DS system to be anywhere close to legal - so they require users to provide unencrypted/decrypted ROM files. They originally only supported one file type purely due to project philosophy, but restored support of one of the other decrypted/unencrypted types because people couldn't behave themselves and malicious actors started popping up with unsafe forks to fill the gap.
* [i.e. The disc itself has no copy-protection in the first place and only checks if the system BIOS or similar is present. It's why, for instance, Castlevania: Symphonia of the Night for PS1 had this special track that played if you inserted the game into a CD player/PC CD-ROM drive and attempted to run it (without an emulator to simulate the PS1 BIOS on PC), letting you know it was not intended for use with PC drives/CD players (since playing Track 1 could damage the disc, drive, and/or YOUR FRIGGIN' EARS if you didn't listen to Alucard's warning).]
Headcanon? That is...... what happened.... If you think otherwise, find information yourself, ig.
"Respectfully" asking is a myth and you are giving Nintendo too much credit. Besides that, there is exactly zero legal or moral argument you can make against people creating emulators to perfectly recreate and simulate targeted hardware. Besides that, emulators are critical for game preservation and making these games playable once hardware used to run it stops working, which is inevitable.
You are also making an argument that emulators hurt sales, linking it to piracy, but that was......proven to be false. You can find EU studies that prove that video game piracy does not lead to loss in sales. Those that pirate, were never customers in the first place. And that is for piracy itself, emulators being possible to use for that.....is not very relevant. Not only do I not agree, but you are just wrong.
Also it is very disingenous to claim that I am making up headcanons, while presenting something that is far less likely, with Nintendo's known and factual history of litigious actions and patent trolling (like they are doing with Palworld). Also, I don't think it's your place to speak on behalf of devs, like they are a monolith or like you know them. I know of cases where devs would be fine even if their games were pirated, just so that they could be enjoyed by another, so what you speak there collapsed on that merit alone.
I am not misunderstanding anything. You are just woefully misinformed and uninformed on legality of it in general. Emulators and emulation is legal. Precedents have been set decades ago. They always were legal. At worst they are in an untested legal gray zone, but illegal.......ABSOLUTELY NOT. Everyone is using that argument because there are cases that set precedent. Even without that case, there is zero laws that forbid emulation. Cases where emulators break the law is only when it's coming shipped with console BIOS, firmware and encryption keys ('illegal' is a misnomer, merely in the gray zone, because this part is untested) that must be sourced either by yourself from your console or pirating of course, however emulators do not provide those........ever......... Now, if they were happened to be reverse engineered, there would be zero legality issues with shipping those out, because of laws regarding reverse-engineering. If you think you can claim THAT is illegal, that would pretty much destroy countless pieces of software if it were the case......which is not.
[I]Sony Computer Entertainment v. Connectix Corporation[/I], 203 [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.3d']F.3d[/URL] 596 (2000), commonly referred to as simply [B]Sony v. Connectix[/B], is a decision by the [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Court_of_Appeals_for_the_Ninth_Circuit']Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals[/URL] which ruled that the copying of a copyrighted [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BIOS']BIOS[/URL] software during the development of an [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulator']emulator[/URL] software does not constitute [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement']copyright infringement[/URL], but is covered by [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use']fair use[/URL]. The court also ruled that [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony']Sony[/URL]'s [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation']PlayStation[/URL] trademark had not been tarnished by [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connectix']Connectix Corp.[/URL]'s sale of its emulator software, the [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Game_Station']Virtual Game Station[/URL].
There is nothing to argue about emulation itself. It is legal. What most people use it for, is not relevant for legality of emulation and emulators themselves. "Final blow" without some insane astro turfing and new laws, cannot do anything to emulators. As I said already, only thing that must be tested is encryption. Nintendo does not wanna mess with that, because if they lose, they are completely fucked.
I do not understand why do you give Nintendo such massive benefit of the doubt, when their history has proven that when dealing with legal actions, they are not nice, kind or at all respectful. I also do not understand why do you think developers at all make any decisions regarding this matter. They almost never do. They shut down a charity event for fucks sake.......They are KNOWN to be petty and litigious. The whole business with Palworld should have informed you that they NEVER play nice.
Besides that, do you really think just because they 'asked nicely' would make Ryujinx devs to just GIVE THEM THE WHOLE THING or even stop working on it? Something they spent years working on, just......giving it away...... You are being naive.
I gave them the benefits of the doubt because they ARE nice. Look at their history, they always send multiple warning letter before actual actions and the one that are caught guaranteed to be idiots. I always view them taking action or sueing people as normal because like I said, there's always a reason that those people get sued, usually them being stupid. Palword is also completely understandable unless you follow all the grifter on the internet, it's a japanese court case but every grifter will report us patent news to...grift.
See, you quote the court case. It's not legal or illegal. "At worst they are in an untested legal gray zone, but illegal.......ABSOLUTELY NOT" so far yet so close. They are can also ABSOLUTELY NOT legal, it's not been proven yet so it can be either way. Claiming it either way showing your bias. I'm staying neutral on this, it's either illegal or legal, it's grey, that's it. The fact that you bring up preservation disregard all of your argument, we all know that's bullshit, let's be real here and not forget the fact that it's an emulator to still selling hardware.
Again, quoting study that is ambitious at best that doesn't actually say piracy hurt sales, more likely they cannot find a link between them. One study that cannot prove anything but the pirates use it and run with everything to justify their actions.
Man, at this point I think I see enough. I can't have any conversation with someone if they truly think emulator is about "pResErvAtion" and piracy doesn't hurt sale or even boosting it, bruh that's the equivalent of "I'm paying you with exposure", that's shitty argument, you just don't realize it but put yourself in a creator shoes and hear that line from people. "I pirate your hard work because that's actually good for you".
I gave them the benefits of the doubt because they ARE nice. Look at their history, they always send multiple warning letter before actual actions and the one that are caught guaranteed to be idiots. I always view them taking action or sueing people as normal because like I said, there's always a reason that those people get sued, usually them being stupid. Palword is also completely understandable unless you follow all the grifter on the internet, it's a japanese court case but every grifter will report us patent news to...grift.
See, you quote the court case. It's not legal or illegal. "At worst they are in an untested legal gray zone, but illegal.......ABSOLUTELY NOT" so far yet so close. They are can also ABSOLUTELY NOT legal, it's not been proven yet so it can be either way. Claiming it either way showing your bias. I'm staying neutral on this, it's either illegal or legal, it's grey, that's it. The fact that you bring up preservation disregard all of your argument, we all know that's bullshit, let's be real here and not forget the fact that it's an emulator to still selling hardware.
Again, quoting study that is ambitious at best that doesn't actually say piracy hurt sales, more likely they cannot find a link between them. One study that cannot prove anything but the pirates use it and run with everything to justify their actions.
Man, at this point I think I see enough. I can't have any conversation with someone if they truly think emulator is about "pResErvAtion" and piracy doesn't hurt sale or even boosting it, bruh that's the equivalent of "I'm paying you with exposure", that's shitty argument, you just don't realize it but put yourself in a creator shoes and hear that line from people. "I pirate your hard work because that's actually good for you".
Sending 'warning' letters is not them being nice........ If the warnings 'work', Nintendo gets what they want and don't need to go to court and burn money. If warning fails, they go to court and again......probably get what they want. That is not them being nice, that is them being pragmatic. Thinking that is them being nice is extremely generous. How is Palworld 'understandle', I would sure like to know.
Outside that, I mentioned multiple instances where they were insanely aggressive and litigious already......... So you claiming they are 'nice' is beyond insane.
Yes, I quote a court case...... Because US court operates on the principle of precedents. If there was a similar court case, that ruled in favor of emulation, then that set precedent for its legality. They absolutely ARE legal.......I showed you LEGAL proof. Claiming it's 'either way' is not 'bias', it's reality. Post above yours detailed a murkier part, that is not yet tested in court, but that part is not related to emulation itself, but breaking encryption of DRMs, which is a separate issue entirely, from emulation itself. I am bringing up preservation, because that is one of its genuine uses and you CAN'T claim that it disregards anything I said, because it doesn't disprove any of the reality of the legal status of emulation.
I don't know how can you keep claiming these things, when you are presented with proof that is contrary to what you believe. I am quoting a study that not only proved there is no loss of sales in case of video game piracy, but showed POSITIVE CORRELATION in an INCREASE of sales. That is, it converted pirates into paying customers. That study investigated book, film, music and video game piracy and only for video games, it showed positive correlation with INCREASE of sales. For the rest, it showed no correlation with either, outside specifically majorblockbuster films.
But, if you want to argue that 'there is no link found', then claiming that piracy hurts sales, "shows your bias" and is not based on any objective reality. That study was sponsored by EU, astro-turfed by companies, more than likely, in order to get more ammo, for any court cases regarding piracy and to make it easier to squash it down. Let me tell you what happened........ Results of that study was buried for a few years, until they were FORCED to reveal results, precisely because it PROVED that piracy not only does not cuts into sales, but in some instances, nets more of them. Also, I am not really interested in any moral grandstanding on the topics of piracy here, I am simply deconstructing your wrongful claims, with factual evidence.
Here is the article, that reports the results of the study. This alone should squash any and all arguments you have about piracy, because if there was no 'Link between Payers and Pirates', this study would not have been buried.
I also find it very baffling that you will just outright deny results that you do not like, claiming they are invalid, without any proof to the contrary, outside some moral grandstanding and at best, anecdotal 'evidence'. That by itself shows your bias and tells everyone who would bother reading this, to not regard anything you say with any amount of seriousness.
Think what you want to believe, that has little to do with me really, but I won't let you claim factually incorrect things. I never gave reasons as to why piracy boost sales, I am simply quoting the results found in that study. Making up arguments that I never gave with your 'exposure' spiel, tells me you either didn't really read what I said or your bias is so strong, that things I never said came up in your head. Whichever it was, again has little to do with me and all to do with your flawed way of thinking.
"Put yourself in creators shoes" is not an argument in any way here. This discussion is all about one thing and that is legality of (video game) emulation, which both me and ChronosNotasHi gave plenty of explanation for. Chronos far more detailed than I did, who explained very well the murky and only remaining untested part of video game emulation. Why do I suddenly clarify it's "video game emulation"? It's because virtual machines and OS emulations are used prominently for countless things and guess what......it's completely legal. Not only legal, but fundamental to many aspects of software engineering. Even video game companies are using emulators, either ones made by them or the ones MADE BY MAJOR EMULATION TEAMS. You know why? Because due to their recklessness (video game publishers), original source code and assets of many important games are LOST and only way to play them is either original hardware or emulators. I should have added this in a paragraph where you claim preservation is a 'stupid' argument, but regardless, it proves its importance for video game preservation. I doubt that will move you in any way, since you clearly do not care if games are lost to history or if they are possible to be played at all, 10, 20, 100 years from now. For someone who pushes is trying to argue for 'creators', you sure don't give a damn about their work of art being possible to experience and enjoy for all time. Speaks a lot on your hypocrisy and bias.
Well, arguably, Dolphin technically does regarding the bolded part, since iirc it includes the Wii Common Keys (or used to, anyway, assuming they change it with a later release version), which can only reasonably be obtained by extracting them from a Wii console. (Go ahead - TRY to guess what the keys are with absolutely no info on length, format, or how they interact with copy protection on Wii discs). It's actually what complicated things when the devs sought to release Dolphin on Steam. Valve was informed by Nintendo upon contacting them that Dolphin infringed on Nintendo's rights under the DMCA (likely due to the common keys), and Valve advised the Dolphin devs to sort out the issue with Nintendo before proceeding.
Speaking of which, while precedent/laws are in favor of emulator devs when it comes to reverse-engineering BIOS and similar (as was shown with Sony v. Connectix), it's more murky when it comes to circumvention of copy-protection measures that don't rely solely on the BIOS file* (same with console jailbreaks, given Sony v. Hotz was settled before a ruling could be determined regarding the legality of jailbreaking consoles). Even what most current emulators are doing is potentially legally grey at best, since they require such circumvention to run ISOs or ROMs if said ISOs/ROMs have any encryption whatsoever. The only scenarios where such circumvention wouldn't be needed would be if:
the ISO/ROM was decrypted by the dev/pub already (or decrypted through the user's own system using a legally-acquired copy of the game, though this also falls into the legal grey area, since there's very few specific exceptions, and home/personal use is not one of them), or
the ISO/ROM never had any encryption in the first place.
It's one of the reasons why the 3DS emulator Azahar only supports specific 3DS file types. The dev team doesn't want to deal with the legal issues of handling encrypted ROMs - which would involve code that would need to be dumped from a legally-owned 3DS/2DS system to be anywhere close to legal - so they require users to provide unencrypted/decrypted ROM files. They originally only supported one file type purely due to project philosophy, but restored support of one of the other decrypted/unencrypted types because people couldn't behave themselves and malicious actors started popping up with unsafe forks to fill the gap.
* [i.e. The disc itself has no copy-protection in the first place and only checks if the system BIOS or similar is present. It's why, for instance, Castlevania: Symphonia of the Night for PS1 had this special track that played if you inserted the game into a CD player/PC CD-ROM drive and attempted to run it (without an emulator to simulate the PS1 BIOS on PC), letting you know it was not intended for use with PC drives/CD players (since playing Track 1 could damage the disc, drive, and/or YOUR FRIGGIN' EARS if you didn't listen to Alucard's warning).]
Thanks for your detailed reply on the murkier parts, that I was clearly not knowledgeable enough on. Asked someone I know, about the keys for Wii, used by Dolphin and that has not changed. Not yet anyway. "Ever" part on my previous reply was wrong on that front.
It does explain a lot more why putting it on Steam was a bad idea. Either Dolphin devs were fools or maybe wanted to force Nintendo's hand and test this, last unproven part encapsulating video game emulation in court? Either way, nothing came of it, clearly.
Encryptions and DRMs are pretty much a poison pill, that is used to stifle and murky emulation and will remain so, until it gets challenged in court. Tho, there is a thing you mentioned that reminded me of something, I think, regarding the DMCA (I am unsure if it was direcly a part of the DMCA or another law that relates to copyright). That is, about the right of the one who purchased a piece of work, to make legal copies of what they bought, for personal use. DRMs and encryption in general, at least on the surface, appear to be clashing with this, doesn't it?
If decryption of it is 'illegal' and bypassing DRMs is illegal also, that would depry those who bought the producr, to make their personal copies, wouldn't it? Or is it that with the way licences work, that it circumvents this entirely in some way or is this 'copy for legal use', a bogus in the first place? Do tell if you know more about it.
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