What makes offensive material offensive?

lol
good job repeating yourself over and over again.

[quote name='dudeonline' post='2862470' date='May 26 2010, 05:05 AM']And you trash the second part of my post because you have no response to it, or is it because it makes your newly typed argument null and void?[/quote]

Or maybe because you simply didn't have it posted when I copied your post?

[quote name='flameiguana' post='2862480' date='May 26 2010, 05:10 AM']lol
good job repeating yourself over and over again.[/quote]

This doesn't have to be a flame war, but if you have shown evidence that you understood exactly what I said I would not have to repeat it in different words.

[quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862467' date='May 26 2010, 06:03 AM']

Cool story bro. Just move to a country where no one speaks english and you can curse all you want, until then society has rules. You are to obey them, and if not, you deal with the consequences. Plain and simple.

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What this says is that Fuck is offensive for some people but not others. Then the question rises again, if the word fuck is not offensive to me, why do I have to watch what I say because you are brainw
[/quote]


By that leap of logic, some people don't mind getting there bums pinched and some people find it offensive. So if pinching bums is not offensive to me, why should I refrain from pinching the bums of others.

Not gonna fly.

[quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862477' date='May 26 2010, 06:09 AM'][quote name='dudeonline' post='2862457' date='May 26 2010, 04:57 AM']We cut grass and regrow it because there is a point where grass becomes too tall, in some areas to keep rodents out of the grass. Do you cut your hair? case in point. Nice try. 2/10[/quote]

That's funny, because I offer the solution to why we even grow grass in the first place if we had to cut it. You missed my point.

People make material offensive. If I say fuck it may offend someone and someone else may have no problem with it. People can choose to be offended by anything they want to, it all depends on the person.

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Precisely. It all depends on the person. You wouldn't want me walking around yelling at other kids because they were saying random words which I can label them offensive.
[/quote]

Because it looks and feels nice. There's your reason. What now?

Oh, and he wasn't flaming you. He is just tired of beating his head against the same wall. good thing i'm hard headed.

[quote name='dudeonline' post='2862488' date='May 26 2010, 05:12 AM']Because it looks and feels nice. There's your reason. What now?
Oh, and he wasn't flaming you. He is just tired of beating his head against the same wall. good thing i'm hard headed.[/quote]

Why does it look and feel nice though? This is all going back to the idea that in the whole lifespan of humans we think the way we do because we were told to think the way we do.

Thong -->Time--> FlipFlop Shoes

Thong + Society -->Time--> Offensive clothing = WTF!

I've seen my EngIish teacher get in trouble for complementing a girls 'thong' as in an old term for flipflops, but she is the younger generation, and has a different view on the word. she didn't even care, but someone did...

Words are nothing but sound. Blame people for the meanings.
Just like the number 23 linking to 666 linking to the devil.

[quote name='Overman1977' post='2862487' date='May 26 2010, 05:12 AM'][quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862467' date='May 26 2010, 06:03 AM']

Cool story bro. Just move to a country where no one speaks english and you can curse all you want, until then society has rules. You are to obey them, and if not, you deal with the consequences. Plain and simple.

Click to expand...

What this says is that Fuck is offensive for some people but not others. Then the question rises again, if the word fuck is not offensive to me, why do I have to watch what I say because you are brainw
[/quote]


By that leap of logic, some people don't mind getting there bums pinched and some people find it offensive. So if pinching bums is not offensive to me, why should I refrain from pinching the bums of others.

Not gonna fly.
[/quote]


Some people find hugs and handshakes offensive, is that any reason why we shouldn't do it? According to the point in my thread, if we weren't taught that it was offensive, it would not be a problem. Why do we pinch people's bottoms, maybe its because its offensive in the first place, we were taught not to do it and as a consequence me probably get some sort of satisfaction to do it?

[quote name='Overman1977' post='2862487' date='May 25 2010, 09:12 PM']By that leap of logic, some people don't mind getting there bums pinched and some people find it offensive. So if pinching bums is not offensive to me, why should I refrain from pinching the bums of others.

Not gonna fly.[/quote]
There is a difference between physically assaulting someone and saying something that might be considered offensive.

[quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862491' date='May 26 2010, 06:16 AM'][quote name='dudeonline' post='2862488' date='May 26 2010, 05:12 AM']Because it looks and feels nice. There's your reason. What now?
Oh, and he wasn't flaming you. He is just tired of beating his head against the same wall. good thing i'm hard headed.[/quote]

Why does it look and feel nice though? This is all going back to the idea that in the whole lifespan of humans we think the way we do because we were told to think the way we do.
[/quote]


Well, we can do whatever the hell we want, but there are consequences. We can all go down the street screaming 'FUCK YOU, ASSHOLE'.....but some people will beat you up for it.

For the most part, words and their meaning have a static definition and meaning. Some people are offended by some words and some are not. There is no philosophical or mathematical 'proof' that will allow you to say whatever you like whenever you like; that's for you to judge, but do not think that's it's socially acceptable in all cases and that people don't have a right to get offended, especially if the generally accepted conotation of your words are offensive.

We can't simply go around using words willy-nilly and expecting ppl to understand what we are talking about by changing our personal definitions. By an large, within any language there is a very specific and understood meaning of the words. If you don't like how people are taking your words, don't talk to them or in their presence. But don't play stupid and think that whatever you say won't have reprocussions. No word is offensive ALL the time to EVERYONE, but there are rules of thumb.

[quote name='Magmorph' post='2862499' date='May 26 2010, 06:20 AM'][quote name='Overman1977' post='2862487' date='May 25 2010, 09:12 PM']By that leap of logic, some people don't mind getting there bums pinched and some people find it offensive. So if pinching bums is not offensive to me, why should I refrain from pinching the bums of others.

Not gonna fly.[/quote]
There is a difference between physically assaulting someone and saying something that might be considered offensive.
[/quote]

Hence the analogy....why does everyone and their mother take analogies literally? It's meant as an illustration.

But for you benefit:

Some people don't mind being called a 'bitch', and some ppl find it offensive. So, if I don't mind being called 'bitch' why should I refrain from calling everyone else a 'bitch'

Happy?

[quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862498' date='May 26 2010, 06:19 AM'][quote name='Overman1977' post='2862487' date='May 26 2010, 05:12 AM'][quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862467' date='May 26 2010, 06:03 AM']

Cool story bro. Just move to a country where no one speaks english and you can curse all you want, until then society has rules. You are to obey them, and if not, you deal with the consequences. Plain and simple.

Click to expand...

What this says is that Fuck is offensive for some people but not others. Then the question rises again, if the word fuck is not offensive to me, why do I have to watch what I say because you are brainw
[/quote]


By that leap of logic, some people don't mind getting there bums pinched and some people find it offensive. So if pinching bums is not offensive to me, why should I refrain from pinching the bums of others.

Not gonna fly.
[/quote]


Some people find hugs and handshakes offensive, is that any reason why we shouldn't do it? According to the point in my thread, if we weren't taught that it was offensive, it would not be a problem. Why do we pinch people's bottoms, maybe its because its offensive in the first place, we were taught not to do it and as a consequence me probably get some sort of satisfaction to do it?
[/quote]


I certainly would not hug someone without their permission. Maybe don't swear unless you know the other is ok with?

Overman1977, I agree with most of what you say, but shoudn't you, like, edit your posts instead of triple-posting?

I'm not sure if this is to be taken as an insult, by saying I am possibly included with 'most people' who cannot understand your argument, or whether you are just tooting your own horn.

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That was not meant to be taken as an insult. The very ambiguities seen in our sentence is similar ambiguities that arise in definitions of words. What I am proposing is if the world where to somehow change to believe that words cannot be offensive, we wouldn't be able to get offended by words.

I also use the rules of grammar.

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It's been approximately 4 years since I have ever typed this much. In mathematics, I have never had to type essays or use any formal English communication. I was trying to say I may be rusty on how I present things so please excuse any grammar errors.

And since you seem to be offering me a short cirriculum vitae, I will reciprocate:
I am not new to philosophical discussions of this type; I have studied philosophy and formal logic (which includes advanced calculus) for 6 yrs and obtained my masters degree.

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I hope you aren't talking about multi-variable calculus as 'mathematics.' I am talking about naive set theory, concepts of linear algebra, abstract algebra, topology, ... etc. All of these classes barely touch on calculation and requires some of the most advanced uses of logic and abstract theory in order to complete. I can only imagine what it is like to do research in mathematics.

That being said, who really cares about our educations. The fact of the matter is, you think that if ppl take offense to your words, that's their problem and you didn't necessarily mean it as such?
That's just silly.

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The only thing that represents us on these forums is what we post, I was giving background information to back up to why I was taking the approaches I were. It wouldn't seem silly if this was thousands of years ago before we adapted to a sociological atmosphere.

Perhaps you should operationally define the meanings of your generally accepted offensive words, so that ppl will not take offense to them when you say them.
Good luck with that.

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Or maybe I should try and fight aids . By this statement, you are saying its possible for people to have different definitions of words. Doesn't this offer the possibility of making all words not offensive?

[quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862515' date='May 26 2010, 06:32 AM']Or maybe I should try and fight aids . By this statement, you are saying its possible for people to have different definitions of words. Doesn't this offer the possibility of making all words not offensive?[/quote]

Not to one person. Every person has words they find offensive, and more often than not, within the same language, these words are similar. Some words are meant to be offensive.

No person would take the word 'genuis' as offensive unless you include another variable, namely 'tone of voice', with which the word 'genius' could be said sarcastically.

And to answer your question: formal logic includes all the maths you mentioned with the exception of topology

If words shifted definitions all willy-nilly, language would be made meaningless. There would be no language.

Language is a means for communication.Some words were invented to communicate offense. End of.

[quote name='Overman1977' post='2862511' date='May 26 2010, 05:29 AM']I certainly would not hug someone without their permission. Maybe don't swear unless you know the other is ok with?[/quote]

However, how many occasions have you asked someone permission to hug them? Why do we even hug people in the first place? Of course it is some type of communication.

I don't really swear. As a matter of fact, I have asperger syndrome. Technically I am retarded (lol). I lack social qualities. It's not that I am too shy to talk to people or I don't know how to talk to people, its that I don't feel the need to talk to people unless I need to. I grew up in a religious family (don't even get me started on religion) who taught me extremely well manners and I always obeyed what I was told. The main point of this thread is to expand on some speculation I had today in a mathematics lecture of some concepts that are extremely tough to even explain. I wanted some input of what people thought and to challenge myself while I had free time during my day. I am going to use a word which I am sure everyone knows, I had to 'emulate' the scenario as I was a certain type of person to get an involved discussion.

I have seen some good arguments against the principle, but I felt that many people just simply didn't understand my argument. The evidence I use to support this is that many people were using examples of socially defined aspects (such as butt grabbing) however I was trying to show the point that everything that society has taught us is inconsistent (which should be a term commonly used in formal logic )

[quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862528' date='May 26 2010, 06:42 AM'][quote name='Overman1977' post='2862511' date='May 26 2010, 05:29 AM']I certainly would not hug someone without their permission. Maybe don't swear unless you know the other is ok with?[/quote]

However, how many occasions have you asked someone permission to hug them? Why do we even hug people in the first place? Of course it is some type of communication.

I don't really swear. As a matter of fact, I have asperger syndrome. Technically I am retarded (lol). I lack social qualities. It's not that I am too shy to talk to people or I don't know how to talk to people, its that I don't feel the need to talk to people unless I need to. I grew up in a religious family (don't even get me started on religion) who taught me extremely well manners and I always obeyed what I was told. The main point of this thread is to expand on some speculation I had today in a mathematics lecture of some concepts that are extremely tough to even explain. I wanted some input of what people thought and to challenge myself while I had free time during my day. I am going to use a word which I am sure everyone knows, I had to 'emulate' the scenario as I was a certain type of person to get an involved discussion.

I have seen some good arguments against the principle, but I felt that many people just simply didn't understand my argument. The evidence I use to support this is that many people were using examples of socially defined aspects (such as butt grabbing) however I was trying to show the point that everything that society has taught us is inconsistent (which should be a term commonly used in formal logic )
[/quote]

Yep. and with this I will bow out of this convo.

[quote name='Overman1977' post='2862524' date='May 26 2010, 05:38 AM']No person would take the word 'genuis' as offensive unless you include another variable, namely 'tone of voice', with which the word 'genius' could be said sarcastically.

And to answer your question: formal logic includes all the maths you mentioned with the exception of topology[/quote]

I don't find this a valid argument. The definition of validity is that the truth of your premises guarantees the truth of the conclusion. If your premises was that no one would find the word genius offensive and the conclusion being unless another variable, namely 'tone of voice', with which word 'genius' could be said sarcastically as the conclusion. I offer the scenario where a language, call it 'sentential squared', has the word genius as something offensive. This shows that there exists a counter example where the word genius can be offensive without adding a tone of voice.

If words shifted definitions all willy-nilly, language would be made meaningless. There would be no language.

Language is a means for communication.Some words were invented to communicate offense. End of.

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And if these words don't offend me then how can it be offensive? Words will be shifted definitions. If human civilization lasted another million years, I dare you still say that words won't have shifted definition. The accusation I am making is that there is a possibility of making all offensive words non offensive.

[quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862528' date='May 26 2010, 06:42 AM'][quote name='Overman1977' post='2862511' date='May 26 2010, 05:29 AM']I certainly would not hug someone without their permission. Maybe don't swear unless you know the other is ok with?[/quote]

However, how many occasions have you asked someone permission to hug them? Why do we even hug people in the first place? Of course it is some type of communication.

I don't really swear. As a matter of fact, I have asperger syndrome. Technically I am retarded (lol). I lack social qualities. It's not that I am too shy to talk to people or I don't know how to talk to people, its that I don't feel the need to talk to people unless I need to. I grew up in a religious family (don't even get me started on religion) who taught me extremely well manners and I always obeyed what I was told. The main point of this thread is to expand on some speculation I had today in a mathematics lecture of some concepts that are extremely tough to even explain. I wanted some input of what people thought and to challenge myself while I had free time during my day. I am going to use a word which I am sure everyone knows, I had to 'emulate' the scenario as I was a certain type of person to get an involved discussion.

I have seen some good arguments against the principle, but I felt that many people just simply didn't understand my argument. The evidence I use to support this is that many people were using examples of socially defined aspects (such as butt grabbing) however I was trying to show the point that everything that society has taught us is inconsistent (which should be a term commonly used in formal logic )
[/quote]


No, I do not ask permission all the time, but I certainly don't hug strangers and people with body language, suggesting they would not want to be hugged.

Yes, society can be inconsistant, but offensive words are, in a large part agreed upon....hell....99.9% of words within a language are agreed upon...lol
Some ppl don't use words correctly, but that does not take away from the generally understood meaning; a few bad apples should not ruin the whole bunch.

People do have preferences of language which change in different social situations. Sometimes words are offensive, sometimes these same words are not offensive. Words are coupled with body language and tone and therewith can have their connotations altered, while a word's denotation remains stable unless it is agreed upon by the majority that it change. Words ARE subjective, though only in the sense that their meanings can change over time. If words were truly subjective all this posting would be pointless.

Just because you don't find a word offensive, doesn't mean someone else won't....At the beginning of this post it seemed as if you were defending saying whatever you want whenever you want and that others should just take it. Now it seems as though you are just making an argument for words being able to have their meanings changed. Yes, people have the right to be offended and it's not necessarily 'their' problem and yes, words can mean something else down the road, in which case a new response to that word would be warrented.

As for my 'invalid argument'.....A word has a definition, it has a meaning. When I use the word 'genius' sarcastically I am not changing the meaning of the word, I am simply changing what 'I' meant by it. One has to know the meaning of the word 'genius' and understand sarcasm, to understand what I mean. Only after knowing what 'genius' means does one know that my sarcasm was intended to imply the opposite. Hope that clears that up.

Kudos for this little thought experiment.

[quote name='Overman1977' post='2862541' date='May 26 2010, 05:54 AM'][quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862528' date='May 26 2010, 06:42 AM'][quote name='Overman1977' post='2862511' date='May 26 2010, 05:29 AM']I certainly would not hug someone without their permission. Maybe don't swear unless you know the other is ok with?[/quote]

However, how many occasions have you asked someone permission to hug them? Why do we even hug people in the first place? Of course it is some type of communication.

I don't really swear. As a matter of fact, I have asperger syndrome. Technically I am retarded (lol). I lack social qualities. It's not that I am too shy to talk to people or I don't know how to talk to people, its that I don't feel the need to talk to people unless I need to. I grew up in a religious family (don't even get me started on religion) who taught me extremely well manners and I always obeyed what I was told. The main point of this thread is to expand on some speculation I had today in a mathematics lecture of some concepts that are extremely tough to even explain. I wanted some input of what people thought and to challenge myself while I had free time during my day. I am going to use a word which I am sure everyone knows, I had to 'emulate' the scenario as I was a certain type of person to get an involved discussion.

I have seen some good arguments against the principle, but I felt that many people just simply didn't understand my argument. The evidence I use to support this is that many people were using examples of socially defined aspects (such as butt grabbing) however I was trying to show the point that everything that society has taught us is inconsistent (which should be a term commonly used in formal logic )
[/quote]


No, I do not ask permission all the time, but I certainly don't hug strangers and people with body language, suggesting they would not want to be hugged.

Yes, society can be inconsistant, but offensive words are, in a large part agreed upon....hell....99.9% of words within a language are agreed upon...lol
Some ppl don't use words correctly, but that does not take away from the generally understood meaning; a few bad apples should not ruin the whole bunch.

People do have preferences of language which change in different social situations. Sometimes words are offensive, sometimes these same words are not offensive. Words are coupled with body language and tone and therewith can have their connotations, while a word's denotation remains stable unless it is agreed upon by the majority that it change. Words ARE subjective, though only in the sense that their meanings can change over time. If words were truly subjective all this posting would be pointless.

Kudos for this little thought experiment.
[/quote]


My main motivation for this thought experiment was that there used to be one time where humans existed and nothing was offensive to these humans. My main argument for this is that offensive material has to be created thus there was some point in which it was not created. If I somehow managed to gain a few people on my chain of thoughts (which I knew going into this was going to be challenging), I would of then moved onto the topic:

If we were able to deem nothing as offensive, would that be a better place or worse? Maybe offensive concepts offer a keystone in stability. It would go along the concept is that you need evil in order to have good.


edit: I realized I made it seem like I was trying to defend that I can say anything. I just felt if I didn't take that approach, then I wouldn't get the feedback I was hoping for. What didn't go according to plan was that I didn't anticipate so many people posting at once. It was overwhelming to be able to come up with a variation of my argument in order to fit their needs. My master plan was to get most people to give examples of things in society. Mentioning stuff how it has always been wrong to cuss and that kind of gibber jabber. Then I would slowly turn the argument that society in general is extremely inconsistent and use their examples to show inconsistency. However, when trying to do this, I had my girlfriend texting me and I won't even tell you what happens if I don't reply back. I was quickly overwhelmed and the way I had formulated all of this in my head just blew up.