What makes offensive material offensive?

It's the way society has developed.

Symbols made by hands are now offensive.
You can be put in jail for screaming "offensive" words in public.

WORDS

I totally agree, we have made these words plagues.
You say "fuck" one time in a class you go to the office.
You say "book" and nothing happens.

Comes down to them both being sounds, nothing more, nothing less.

Words are not simply utterances from our mouths; they have meaning, they denote a concept.

You are correct that somewhere in the past, we as humans made some words objectionable, though mainly because of their meaning. Saying 'fuck' instead of 'sex' is a good example of this dichotomy. There are definately negative conotations attached to the word 'fuck', whereas 'sex' has less of a negative meaning, but we all have deal with.

Of course morality is handed down throughout the generations, but offensiveness and morality and not the same thing even if they overlap at times. All things immoral are or should be offensive but not all things that are offensive are immoral.

Humans attach meaning to words, they embody concepts...can't escape that. Some meanings are offensive to some ppl and thus some words are offensive to some ppl.

[quote name='Overman1977' post='2862342' date='May 25 2010, 10:59 PM']Words are not simply utterances from our mouths; they have meaning, they denote a concept.

You are correct that somewhere in the past, we as humans made some words objectionable, though mainly because of their meaning. Saying 'fuck' instead of 'sex' is a good example of this dichotomy. There are definately negative conotations attached to the word 'fuck', whereas 'sex' has less of a negative meaning, but we all have deal with.

Of course morality is handed down throughout the generations, but offensiveness and morality and not the same thing even if they overlap at times. All things immoral are or should be offensive but not all things that are offensive are immoral.

Humans attach meaning to words, they embody concepts...can't escape that. Some meanings are offensive to some ppl and thus some words are offensive to some ppl.[/quote]
+1
I was making a reply similar to this one but I closed the tab on accident.

Anyways, you won't be able to change the others about what they find offensive or not, so if you don't wanna be reminded to mind your language, either stop using those words or deal with it, it's as simple as that really.

That "sound coming out of your mouth part" reasoning doesn't make sense to me. Of course that's what it is. Like you said, people attach meaning to words. Pay particular attention to hateful speech.

Obviously, some people overdo the "being offended" part for the sake of political correctness or to seem righteous. I don't like that.

[quote name='Overman1977' post='2862342' date='May 25 2010, 09:59 PM']Words are not simply utterances from our mouths; they have meaning, they denote a concept.

You are correct that somewhere in the past, we as humans made some words objectionable, though mainly because of their meaning. Saying 'fuck' instead of 'sex' is a good example of this dichotomy. There are definately negative conotations attached to the word 'fuck', whereas 'sex' has less of a negative meaning, but we all have deal with.

Of course morality is handed down throughout the generations, but offensiveness and morality and not the same thing even if they overlap at times. All things immoral are or should be offensive but not all things that are offensive are immoral.

Humans attach meaning to words, they embody concepts...can't escape that. Some meanings are offensive to some ppl and thus some words are offensive to some ppl.[/quote]
Quoted for truth.

I'm pretty loose about cussing around my kids. I've discussed the societal and religious stigmas with them. It's really pretty simple. I think it's good to demystify the words, and the best way to do that is to let them know what they are, why they're offensive, and why you don't want to look like a dick in public by using them loosely.

Words are not simply utterances from our mouths; they have meaning, they denote a concept.

Click to expand...

If I said 'dslkhdsalkhdslhlkdsa', you would either associate this word with a meaning or you would tell yourself it means nothing. Either way, it has meaning whether it is something specific or a general 'null' meaning. By induction, we can see everything (regardless of it has a meaning you know) has meaning effectively putting everything on the same level.

My whole point is I shouldn't have to watch what I say and if people get offended they can blame themselves.

I can also distort word's meanings. What if I developed a language where all the English words meant the same except for the word 'hamburger.' According to my language hamburger means you were going to kick someone's face in and flush their keys down the toilet. People that spoke this language would find the word 'hamburger' offensive, however I can guarantee you everyone reading this post does not find the word 'hamburger' offensive.

So what have I effectively done? I gave an example of how a non-offensive word can be offensive. Thus the map from offensive words to non-offensive words is an identity map. Basically words are not offensive until ____""""***Someone***"""_____ deems them offensive.

It's not my fault if you find a word offensive is what I am saying so don't 'bitch' about it at me. *I'm not referring to any specific person*

I still think that "Fuck" should be nixed out as a cuss word. in fact it's the most adaptable word in the English language as a whole.

[quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862385' date='May 25 2010, 08:19 PM']

Words are not simply utterances from our mouths; they have meaning, they denote a concept.

Click to expand...

If I said 'dslkhdsalkhdslhlkdsa', you would either associate this word with a meaning or you would tell yourself it means nothing. Either way, it has meaning. By induction, we can see everything (regardless of it has a meaning you know) has meaning effectively putting everything on the same level.

My whole point is I shouldn't have to watch what I say and if people get offended they can blame themselves.

I can also distort word's meanings. What if I developed a language where all the English words meant the same except for the word 'hamburger.' According to my language hamburger means you were going to kick someone's face in and flush their keys down the toilet. People that spoke this language would find the word 'hamburger' offensive, however I can guarantee you everyone reading this post does not find the word 'hamburger' offensive.

So what have I effectively done? I gave an example of how a non-offensive word can be offensive. Thus the map from offensive words to non-offensive words is an identity map. Basically words are not offensive until ____""""***Someone***"""_____ deems them offensive.

It's not my fault if you find a word offensive is what I am saying so don't 'bitch' about it at me. *I'm not referring to any specific person*
[/quote]
Okay so you're saying perception is a relative thing. What else is new?

You say whatever you want without taking others into consideration? That's weird, man. (I know you don't do that)
I also don't like bitching. A simple heads up will do. Example: "Hey man, that's not cool"

[quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862385' date='May 26 2010, 05:19 AM']

Words are not simply utterances from our mouths; they have meaning, they denote a concept.

Click to expand...

If I said 'dslkhdsalkhdslhlkdsa', you would either associate this word with a meaning or you would tell yourself it means nothing. Either way, it has meaning. By induction, we can see everything (regardless of it has a meaning you know) has meaning effectively putting everything on the same level.

My whole point is I shouldn't have to watch what I say and if people get offended they can blame themselves.

I can also distort word's meanings. What if I developed a language where all the English words meant the same except for the word 'hamburger.' According to my language hamburger means you were going to kick someone's face in and flush their keys down the toilet. People that spoke this language would find the word 'hamburger' offensive, however I can guarantee you everyone reading this post does not find the word 'hamburger' offensive.

So what have I effectively done? I gave an example of how a non-offensive word can be offensive. Thus the map from offensive words to non-offensive words is an identity map. Basically words are not offensive until ____""""***Someone***"""_____ deems them offensive.

It's not my fault if you find a word offensive is what I am saying so don't 'bitch' about it at me. *I'm not referring to any specific person*
[/quote]


Firstly, 'dslkhdsalkhdslhlkdsa', if you uttered it would only have meaning to you, and not to others and therefore could not be offensive to others....
Secondly, yes you could make the word 'hamburger' offensive but it would only be offensive to you.............unless you told the person what you 'meant' by it.

A non-offensive word cannot be offensive, it's a contradiction in terms... if you change the meaning of the word to mean something offensive that's up to you, but no one will take it as offensive unless you inform them.

And I think ppl take offense to meanings rather than the actual 'mouth sound' of the word itself.... and if you were to call someone an 'asshole' they may have no problem with 'ass' and hole' but more importantly with what you meant by it (unless you changed the meaning of 'asshole' to mean 'awesome person', in which case you ought to tell them of the change).

I knew trying to argue this point would be near impossible. My last four years of studying mathematics has most certainly taught me to think abstractly to a point where most people can't understand what I am trying to say. My examples would be often misunderstood simply because of the abstract level it is portrayed in. Not only that, but my field of study draws far away from formal communication and trying to explain something is often difficult especially since I have long used the rules of grammar when typing.

Firstly, 'dslkhdsalkhdslhlkdsa', if you uttered it would only have meaning to you, and not to others and therefore could not be offensive to others....

Click to expand...

My whole point was that if someone could not identify a meaning for a word, that itself gives meaning to a word namely "the word without meaning." The fact that I said that words are utter sound was to symbolize that words are on a parallel line with each other regardless what they are.

A non-offensive word cannot be offensive, it's a contradiction in terms... if you change the meaning of the word to mean something offensive that's up to you, but no one will take it as offensive unless you inform them.

Click to expand...

That's why I had to define a completely new field of words, the word hamburger in my language is offensive. I had to use a word that was completely not offensive to represent a point saying that it can be offensive in a different language. Which lead me to my next paragraph which basically states that no two people speak the same language. There are an infinite amount of variations that can be made to the English language.

Take a group of people who speak English. While we may believe that everyone in the group is speaking English, the truth is everyone is speaking different variations of English. If we define a language to be a set of words with a set of definitions for every word, by this definition in order for two people to speak the same language, every word must mean the same. But referring back to the last sentence of last paragraph, the infinite amount of variations one word can take guarantees that no two people can have the same exact representation for every word (this also includes words that have no definition which does give them definition).

All words have a generally accepted meaning. Sure there may be someone who thinks "Apple" means a flightless bird occupying the regions of paupa new guinea, but to most of us, it's a round sweet seeded fruit growing on trees, and come in three common colors, red, yellow, and green.

My point is, you can't just call someone a fucktard, and not expect a response and just say "well thats how you took it."

[quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862412' date='May 26 2010, 04:29 AM']Retyping this...[/quote]

Retype what...Overman already beat the shit out of your argument, blew it's zombie head off, and buried it out back again.
You're done dude, everything Overman said is 100% correct.
*ahem* It's over, man.

You might as well argue why most people are taught manners, why should someone care if you don't say please, it's just a pointless sound, correct? Yet it isn't, like swear words, or any other word...there is meaning behind it. Your argument is moot, because by your logic, words don't mean anything.

[quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862412' date='May 26 2010, 05:29 AM']I knew trying to argue this point would be near impossible. My last four years of studying mathematics has most certainly taught me to think abstractly to a point where most people can't understand what I am trying to say. My examples would be often misunderstood simply because of the abstract level it is portrayed in. Not only that, but my field of study draws far away from formal communication and trying to explain something is often difficult especially since I have long used the rules of grammar when typing.

Firstly, 'dslkhdsalkhdslhlkdsa', if you uttered it would only have meaning to you, and not to others and therefore could not be offensive to others....

Click to expand...

My whole point was that if someone could not identify a meaning for a word, that itself gives meaning to a word namely "the word without meaning." The fact that I said that words are utter sound was to symbolize that words are on a parallel line with each other regardless what they are.

A non-offensive word cannot be offensive, it's a contradiction in terms... if you change the meaning of the word to mean something offensive that's up to you, but no one will take it as offensive unless you inform them.

Click to expand...

That's why I had to define a completely new field of words, the word hamburger in my language is offensive. I had to use a word that was completely not offensive to represent a point saying that it can be offensive in a different language. Which lead me to my next paragraph which basically states that no two people speak the same language. There are an infinite amount of variations that can be made to the English language.

Take a group of people who speak English. While we may believe that everyone in the group is speaking English, the truth is everyone is speaking different variations of English. If we define a language to be a set of words with a set of definitions for every word, by this definition in order for two people to speak the same language, every word must mean the same. But referring back to the last sentence of last paragraph, the infinite amount of variations one word can take guarantees that no two people can have the same exact representation for every word (this also includes words that have no definition which does give them definition).
[/quote]

Cool story bro. Just move to a country where no one speaks english and you can curse all you want, until then society has rules. You are to obey them, and if not, you deal with the consequences. Plain and simple.

But even then words, and language on the whole is not just about the words themselves, it's about tone, volume, body language, etc... So, if you went to Germany and told someone that doesnt know a lick of english, "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on" I'm sure they would be offended, because they may not know the WORDs that are coming out of your mouth, but they can understand everything else.

[quote name='Hells Malice' post='2862434' date='May 26 2010, 04:37 AM'][quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862412' date='May 26 2010, 04:29 AM']Retyping this...[/quote]

Retype what...Overman already beat the shit out of your argument, blew it's zombie head off, and buried it out back again.
You're done dude, everything Overman said is 100% correct.
*ahem* It's over, man.

You might as well argue why most people are taught manners, why should someone care if you don't say please, it's just a pointless sound, correct? Yet it isn't, like swear words, or any other word...there is meaning behind it. Your argument is moot, because by your logic, words don't mean anything.
[/quote]

Eventually you will see that we are redundant with everything. Just about everything we do today is inconsistent. Things like mowing the grass and re-growing it week by week is what we define as retarded.

I created this thread, not only to occupy myself of free time, but to challenge users to break out of what we were

aught

Click to expand...

and think abstractly to why do we do the things we do.

[quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862455' date='May 26 2010, 05:52 AM'][quote name='Hells Malice' post='2862434' date='May 26 2010, 04:37 AM'][quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862412' date='May 26 2010, 04:29 AM']Retyping this...[/quote]

Retype what...Overman already beat the shit out of your argument, blew it's zombie head off, and buried it out back again.
You're done dude, everything Overman said is 100% correct.
*ahem* It's over, man.

You might as well argue why most people are taught manners, why should someone care if you don't say please, it's just a pointless sound, correct? Yet it isn't, like swear words, or any other word...there is meaning behind it. Your argument is moot, because by your logic, words don't mean anything.
[/quote]

Eventually you will see that we are redundant with everything. Just about everything we do today is inconsistent. Things like mowing the grass and re-growing it week by week is what we define as retarded.

I created this thread, not only to occupy myself of free time, but to challenge users to break out of what we were

aught

Click to expand...

and think abstractly to why do we do the things we do.
[/quote]


We cut grass and regrow it because there is a point where grass becomes too tall, in some areas to keep rodents out of the grass. Do you cut your hair? case in point. Nice try. 2/10

[quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862412' date='May 26 2010, 05:29 AM']I knew trying to argue this point would be near impossible. My last four years of studying mathematics has most certainly taught me to think abstractly to a point where most people can't understand what I am trying to say. My examples would be often misunderstood simply because of the abstract level it is portrayed in. Not only that, but my field of study draws far away from formal communication and trying to explain something is often difficult especially since I have long used the rules of grammar when typing.[/quote]


I'm not sure if this is to be taken as an insult, by saying I am possibly included with 'most people' who cannot understand your argument, or whether you are just tooting your own horn.

I also use the rules of grammar.

And since you seem to be offering me a short cirriculum vitae, I will reciprocate:
I am not new to philosophical discussions of this type; I have studied philosophy and formal logic (which includes advanced calculus) for 6 yrs and obtained my masters degree.

That being said, who really cares about our educations. The fact of the matter is, you think that if ppl take offense to your words, that's their problem and you didn't necessarily mean it as such?

That's just silly.

Perhaps you should operationally define the meanings of your generally accepted offensive words, so that ppl will not take offense to them when you say them.

Good luck with that.

Cool story bro. Just move to a country where no one speaks english and you can curse all you want, until then society has rules. You are to obey them, and if not, you deal with the consequences. Plain and simple.

Click to expand...

That's precisely my point! You probably don't realize it, but that's exactly what I have stated! It's only offensive to people who take it offensive! The fact that you call these words 'curse' words is fueling my argument.

Consider the set A to be English words, consider the set B to be the meanings of a word, consider the set C to be deemed 'offensive.'


What we do is we take words from the set A, map them to B, then C denotes offensitivity

A ----> B ----> C

In other words, take the word hamburger:

Hamburger ------> {the set of all representations of what hamburger means} -------> not offensive
Fuck ------------> {the set of all representations of what fuck means} ---------> offensive

You will see that there is no word such that it maps directly to offensive, because the concept of offensive itself is not offensive. Sort of like

A -----------> B ----------------> C

{arbitrary word} ---------> offensive ------------> not offensive

Now my whole point, in which I don't even think I can make clearer is the function mapping from set B to set C is completely opinionated. Some people find words offensive and some people do not find it offensive. In an obvious case, we end up seeing:


Fuck ------------> {the set of all representations of what fuck means} ---------> offensive
Fuck ------------> {the set of all representations of what fuck means} ---------> not offensive

What this says is that Fuck is offensive for some people but not others. Then the question rises again, if the word fuck is not offensive to me, why do I have to watch what I say because you are brainwashed?

People make material offensive. If I say fuck it may offend someone and someone else may have no problem with it. People can choose to be offended by anything they want to, it all depends on the person.


What really matters is if you respect the person you are offending enough not to offend them.

[quote name='Zetta_x' post='2862467' date='May 26 2010, 06:03 AM']

Cool story bro. Just move to a country where no one speaks english and you can curse all you want, until then society has rules. You are to obey them, and if not, you deal with the consequences. Plain and simple.

Click to expand...

That's precisely my point! You probably don't realize it, but that's exactly what I have stated! It's only offensive to people who take it offensive! The fact that you call these words 'curse' words is fueling my argument.

Consider the set A to be English words, consider the set B to be the meanings of a word, consider the set C to be deemed 'offensive.'


What we do is we take words from the set A, map them to B, then C denotes offensitivity

A ----> B ----> C

In other words, take the word hamburger:

Hamburger ------> {the set of all representations of what hamburger means} -------> not offensive
Fuck ------------> {the set of all representations of what fuck means} ---------> offensive

You will see that there is no word such that it maps directly to offensive, because the concept of offensive itself is not offensive. Sort of like

A -----------> B ----------------> C

{arbitrary word} ---------> offensive ------------> not offensive

Now my whole point, in which I don't even think I can make clearer is the function mapping from set B to set C is completely opinionated. Some people find words offensive and some people do not find it offensive. In an obvious case, we end up seeing:


Fuck ------------> {the set of all representations of what fuck means} ---------> offensive
Fuck ------------> {the set of all representations of what fuck means} ---------> not offensive

What this says is that Fuck is offensive for some people but not others. Then the question rises again, if the word fuck is not offensive to me, why do I have to watch what I say because you are brainwashed?
[/quote]

And you trash the second part of my post because you have no response to it, or is it because it makes your newly typed argument null and void?

[quote name='dudeonline' post='2862457' date='May 26 2010, 04:57 AM']We cut grass and regrow it because there is a point where grass becomes too tall, in some areas to keep rodents out of the grass. Do you cut your hair? case in point. Nice try. 2/10[/quote]

That's funny, because I offer the solution to why we even grow grass in the first place if we had to cut it. You missed my point.

People make material offensive. If I say fuck it may offend someone and someone else may have no problem with it. People can choose to be offended by anything they want to, it all depends on the person.

Click to expand...

Precisely. It all depends on the person. You wouldn't want me walking around yelling at other kids because they were saying random words which I can label them offensive.