Hardware WiiU's CPU weaker than 360/PS3

[ShadowSoldier]

Bottom line, we are all comparing it to ps360, and that's sad for a next gen system being compared to old gen, I'm just saying ps4 and Xbox ___ # will wipe the floor with the wii u and everyone knows it, Nintendo just got on the 1080p train while the others are getting reedy for 4000p and 8000p. Thus making it back where it started off on the gpu war.

You're an idiot. I'm sorry but it's true.

 

[Foxi4]

Bottom line, we are all comparing it to ps360, and that's sad for a next gen system being compared to old gen, I'm just saying ps4 and Xbox ___ # will wipe the floor with the wii u and everyone knows it, Nintendo just got on the 1080p train while the others are getting reedy for 4000p and 8000p. Thus making it back where it started off on the gpu war.

You're an idiot. I'm sorry but it's true.

A tad harsh, when he may be right to an extent. Wait! Hear me out! Don't throw the rotten tomatoes yet!

I don't mean in video games - that'd be silly. I don't see people playing video games at 4K on PC's, and this clearly means that the consoles won't support it either. What they *could* support, and what's entirely doable, is 4K support for videos and photos. 4K BluRay sounds pretty swell, and seeing that Sony already released a 4K TV, it's in the future, yes.

Rendering in real-time though won't be achievable, not in this generation and probably not in the next.

 

[tronic307]

The Wii has a processor in the PowerPC architecture, the Power7 is its new installment, the WiiU will support Wii games natively. Before someone says "lol, that's weak", so does the 360. The CPU is not weaker, it's far stronger - the SDK tools simply need to be perfected and programmers need to wrap their heads around them. This thread is relatively pointless, it's based on someone's word, which goes againts benchmarks. This is a situat.no analogous to that of the early PS3 days when Sony's SDK was young, convoluted and difficult to master. This is a temporary state which will pass as the system matures.

Did you miss that IBM confirmed it wasn't a Power7 CPU? It's not much stronger at all; just 2 extra cores, some more cache and a higher clock. No new instructions and still no proper SIMD.

I'm just curious: Would VMX and Wii backward compatibility be mutually exclusive in this case?

 

[tueidj]

You mean the altivec instructions? They share the same opcodes as the paired-single instructions used in Gekko/Broadway, there are some "PS Enabled" bits that effectively enable/disable the paired-single ops so in theory those bits could also be used to switch between the two instruction sets. However there is some software that expects an illegal instruction exception to happen when a paired-single instruction gets executed with PS disabled (so it knows to turn them on and subsequently save/restore the extended FPRs during context switches)... so they're basically stuck with the horse they bet on 12 years ago.

 

[BORTZ]

This thread is getting out of control. We are arguing about things that dont exist yet lol

 

[tronic307]

You mean the altivec instructions? They share the same opcodes as the paired-single instructions used in Gekko/Broadway, there are some "PS Enabled" bits that effectively enable/disable the paired-single ops so in theory those bits could also be used to switch between the two instruction sets. However there is some software that expects an illegal instruction exception to happen when a paired-single instruction gets executed with PS disabled (so it knows to turn them on and subsequently save/restore the extended FPRs during context switches)... so they're basically stuck with the horse they bet on 12 years ago.

Very informative, thanks! So, if I understand correctly, the SIMD opcodes are already reserved... What about those PowerPC 476FP rumors we've all heard? Do you think a custom variant of this processor might suit Nintendo's purposes?

 

[tueidj]

It seems to be very different from the 750CL, even if the extra features were added (locked cache, DMA engine, write-gather pipe, paired single ops) the memory/cache management systems are incompatible.

 

[OriginalHamster]

I read that next gen consoles will be no so dependant from the CPU. That would explain Team Ninja problems with Orochi 2, the game makes extensive use of the CPU. I think that when developers writte code that can easily handled by the GPGPU is when Wii U games will start to shine.

 

[tronic307]

It seems to be very different from the 750CL, even if the extra features were added (locked cache, DMA engine, write-gather pipe, paired single ops) the memory/cache management systems are incompatible.

Thanks. I reason it would be fair to expect Espresso to sport a modest clock rate, given the Wii U's ~40W power budget. How would a tri-core Broadway @~2GHz fare against Cell and Xenon?

 

[SpaceJump]

Of course the Wii U is compared to PS360. What else could it be compared to?

 

[Foxi4]

Of course the Wii U is compared to PS360. What else could it be compared to?

People expect others to compare them to the non-existant PS4 and XBox 720.

The WiiU could go the PS2 path if all goes well. If Nintendo can keep the developers willing to release games for it, it can build up a nice library before the competition releases their competing hardware and keep the high winds in its sales until the end of its lifetime due to high adoption rate, even *IF* the PS4 and the XBox 720 will end up being superior.

What's beautiful about the WiiU's hardware is that it's a step-up from current generation systems and at the same time, it's "sufficient" for video game development, both in this and in the next generation. It gives developers what they lacked on the PS3 and the 360 - RAM and a powerful GPU, letting them spread their wings.

Fair play, it has certain issues now (undoubtly caused by the unfamiliar SDK) but those will eventually pass, leaving the WiiU with a library of games and the PS4/720 "waiting for the games to come". This is often a make-or-break factor for buyers; "Will I have something to play when I buy your system?". The WiiU's answer will be "Yes", the PS4/720's will be "maybe next year".

 

[tueidj]

I heard it was clocked somewhere around 1.5Ghz, they're probably using passive cooling again so I wouldn't expect much higher.
I don't have direct experience with Cell or Xenon but Broadway is a pretty beefy CPU for things besides heavy graphics filtering, most Wii (and GC) games are restricted by RAM (either directly or indirectly since it's used for textures) rather than the CPU - the majority of execution time is spent in the idle thread, so it's not like they're pushing the limits. Three Broadways combined even at 1Ghz would be enough grunt for any current game.

 

[Foxi4]

I heard it was clocked somewhere around 1.5Ghz, they're probably using passive cooling again so I wouldn't expect much higher.
I don't have direct experience with Cell or Xenon but Broadway is a pretty beefy CPU for things besides heavy graphics filtering, most Wii (and GC) games are restricted by RAM (either directly or indirectly since it's used for textures) rather than the CPU - the majority of execution time is spent in the idle thread, so it's not like they're pushing the limits. Three Broadways combined even at 1Ghz would be enough grunt for any current game.

I'm seriously not going to believe any of those rumours until I actually see the beast itself, naked, showing off its chips to the public. If I were to guess, I'd say around 2,5-3Ghz sounds alright - remember that it's an *improved* a'la Broadway.

To me, it's a "PowerPC-based multi-core Custom CPU" and I'll let it stay mysterious. We've seen too many "rumours" about it already to give any of them credit. That said, as I mentioned earlier, *a lot* of the calculations will be performed by the GPU now - especially with GPGPU in-place. The toll goes off the CPU as far as calculations commonly known as difficult for CPU's, such as Floating Point Operations are no longer an issue on the system - they're being sent straight to the chip where they'll be performed fastest.

 

[tueidj]

2.5 - 3Ghz on a 45nm chip? Look at the size of the thing, there's no way the required cooling would fit. Broadway runs at 729Mhz, that speed would only be increased 3x at most.
You're also kidding yourself if you think games will be using GPGPU functionality. It's not even common place in PC apps where the capability has been there for several years.

 

[Yepi69]

like i care, the wii cpu was also weak and the games were greater than ps3 games, on gameplay of course idc about graphics either

 

[Foxi4]

It's not even common place in PC apps where the capability has been there for several years.

Havoc uses GPGPU, as far as I know, and with Havoc, every game that uses Havoc since the option was introduced.

2.5 - 3Ghz on a 45nm chip? Look at the size of the thing, there's no way the required cooling would fit.

We shall see.

 

[tronic307]

Us Nintendo fans should have a blast with it, that's all that really matters. But, yeah, 1458-2187MHz max. This is assuming a 121.5MHz base clock, like the Wii.

 

[the_randomizer]

Who care if it's "weaker"?

 

[Foxi4]

People are underestimating modern chips and cooling. Ultra-thin laptops with multicore CPU's reaching high frequencies became a norm and yet people still think that you need to put a fan strong enough to cause a hurricane to reach 3Ghz. That's a 2000-late attitude, frequencies higher than 2Ghz are entirely doable and realistic, the system has enough space to properly ventilate itself.

 

[tueidj]

Sounds more like people are confusing x86 chips with PowerPC. How about ARM, how many >2Ghz smartphones are out there?