Temp Debates #9

[0ddity]

Creation. Evolution just doesn't make any sense.

Are you being serious? It's hard to tell. I'm going to assume you are.

A sea creature becomes a land creature, how the fuck is that possible, if according to science, evolution takes thousands of years
Where exactly, does science say evolution takes "thousands" of years? And magic makes sense?



QUOTE

, so how the hell is that sea creature gonna be on land for all that time to evolve if it needs to breath by water.

Individuals don't evolve, populations do. This is a common misconception about evolution, and difficult to grasp if you don't understand evolution. Even so, I'd imagine something like this:

http://vimeo.com/3219092

 

[_Chaz_]

We were created somehow, that doesn't necessarily mean that a higher power did so.

But it has been proven that evolution is not just a theory. It happened, happens and will continue to happen.

Evolution is just a theory, but that is not a mark against it, as in the scientific vernacular, theory does not mean the same thing as the layman term theory. Evolution is a theory in the same way the round earth is a theory, germs a theory, gravity is a theory, etc.

Gravity is a law...

 

[Uncle FEFL]

Creation. Evolution just doesn't make any sense. A sea creature becomes a land creature, how the fuck is that possible, if according to science, evolution takes thousands of years, so how the hell is that sea creature gonna be on land for all that time to evolve if it needs to breath by water.

That's incredibly ignorant of you to say.

A sea creature doesn't become a land creature overnight. It takes hundreds of thousands of years. Organisms have been around for millions of years. There's time.

They don't just stop swimming and start walking by the way. There's processes to it, such as droughts, earthquakes, volcanoes (forming land), shortage of food in water, gradually getting closer to the surface until finally leaving the surface somewhat (like an alligator or crocodile), the formation of gills shifting to lungs (like whales, which are perceived IIRC to be land creatures in the past. I think they'll evolve to have gills in the future), the formation of limbs, the loss of fins, vestigial organs, and that's just the stuff a sixteen year-old can think of off the top of his head. The list on how goes on, and on, and on.

 

[monkat]

We were created somehow, that doesn't necessarily mean that a higher power did so.

But it has been proven that evolution is not just a theory. It happened, happens and will continue to happen.

Evolution is just a theory, but that is not a mark against it, as in the scientific vernacular, theory does not mean the same thing as the layman term theory. Evolution is a theory in the same way the round earth is a theory, germs a theory, gravity is a theory, etc.

Gravity is a law...

The theory of gravity entails one of four major powers, gravity, that control this universe - through that, we have created several laws to explain the world around us.

 

[0ddity]

We were created somehow, that doesn't necessarily mean that a higher power did so.

But it has been proven that evolution is not just a theory. It happened, happens and will continue to happen.

Evolution is just a theory, but that is not a mark against it, as in the scientific vernacular, theory does not mean the same thing as the layman term theory. Evolution is a theory in the same way the round earth is a theory, germs a theory, gravity is a theory, etc.

Gravity is a law...

Gravity is a theory. The "law" of gravity is what we expect because of our experiments and knowledge of the theory. Modern gravitational theory is based on the understanding of the general theory of relativity. Before Einstein, it was based on the Newtonian theory.

 

[Deleted User]

Creation. Evolution just doesn't make any sense. A sea creature becomes a land creature, how the fuck is that possible, if according to science, evolution takes thousands of years, so how the hell is that sea creature gonna be on land for all that time to evolve if it needs to breath by water.

You shouldn't be against a theory if you don't understand it.

 

[_Chaz_]

Creation. Evolution just doesn't make any sense. A sea creature becomes a land creature, how the fuck is that possible, if according to science, evolution takes thousands of years, so how the hell is that sea creature gonna be on land for all that time to evolve if it needs to breath by water.

You shouldn't be against a theory if you don't understand it.

 

[KingdomBlade]

Creation. Evolution just doesn't make any sense. A sea creature becomes a land creature, how the fuck is that possible, if according to science, evolution takes thousands of years, so how the hell is that sea creature gonna be on land for all that time to evolve if it needs to breath by water.

You shouldn't be against a theory if you don't understand it.

I agree... maybe you should have paid attention to science class.

 

[RayJT9]

Guys, it's a debate, not a "Jump down the creationist's throat" thread.

I agree with evolution purely because to disagree with it would be to completely ignore all of the ridiculously huge amounts evidence that has been provided in its favour.

 

[monkat]

As far as the origin of life itself, in regards to intelligent design and what have you, I can't say. No one can say.

However, with evolution, we have an incredibly credible theory explaining where humans came from. Moreover, just look at a naked human. We are an incredibly bipedal naked ape.

Or in my case, not so naked.

Spoiler

 

[Sterling]

The universe is governed by the laws of science. The laws may have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws.
-Stephen Hawking

That is what I believe in. Something has to be the one to make something so elaborate, so perhaps, I believe Science and God intertwine in a certain way. God makes a law, and science is the law that he made. Possibly, God could have made a law about evolution, and the universe just follows it.

I absolutely love this post. Though the idea that the Creator is so complex that it would need a Creator makes some sense, it just seems to be a paradoxical question. Though if you look back to the beginning of time... No the before time. How could all the materials for the creation of an infinite universe just be there? How did all of it get there, and how long had it been sitting there? Nothing spawns nothing. If there was nothing, how did something come to pass. I was watching the science channel the other day, and one topic was the creation of the universe. There was a theory that was being broached about how the creation and destruction of the universe is a never ending cycle caused by the collision of two membranes. This shit just blows my mind, and the more I think about it the more I believe that some form of higher power exists. To me looking at all the theories being tossed about the fact remains that none of use have any idea how it happened. And until someone is able to beyond a doubt prove to me that there is no higher power, I will remain adamant on my position that the universe was created by a higher power. Also evolution is real. I have seen proof beyond a doubt that animals and creatures of all sorts adapt to survive, and even mutate to something similar but different at the same time.

EDIT: There should be an option to say nothing is concrete.

 

[gifi4]

We evolved from some other animals, it may have taken a very long time but we did evolve, it is impossible for something to have created us, I don't beleive in god either but that has nothing to do with this as if there was a god, there would be no hobos/bums around, everyone would be happy and all that, anyway evolution has been proved and god has not, that is all.

 

[Sterling]

We evolved from some other animals, it may have taken a very long time but we did evolve, it is impossible for something to have created us, I don't beleive in god either but that has nothing to do with this as if there was a god, there would be no hobos/bums around, everyone would be happy and all that, anyway evolution has been proved and god has not, that is all.

Evolution may be proven but the ideology of God has not been disproved either. Gonna take a second to preach a bit. When man first sinned and took a bite of the apple of knowledge, they now knew right from wrong. Which is why the world isn't a perfect place, because we humans ignore things like that. Not that it matters to you that I used the Bible.

 

[KingdomBlade]

Yes, we most likely did evolve, but where did the things we evolve from come from? They could also have been created. That is where two ideas could intertwine and form this idea. This debate is not really true, as these ideas could possibly be very distinct depending on the understanding. The idea of creation for many, is spontaneous, like we just popped out of nowhere. But, it could be much more complex than that. Wouldn't that be possible? We could have evolved from something that was created in a way that was not spontaneous, but in a more.... how should I say it, graceful way? Maybe even a scientific way? Which God most likely decreed.

 

[gifi4]

We evolved from some other animals, it may have taken a very long time but we did evolve, it is impossible for something to have created us, I don't beleive in god either but that has nothing to do with this as if there was a god, there would be no hobos/bums around, everyone would be happy and all that, anyway evolution has been proved and god has not, that is all.

Evolution may be proven but the ideology of God has not been disproved either. Gonna take a second to preach a bit. When man first sinned and took a bite of the apple of knowledge, they now knew right from wrong. Which is why the world isn't a perfect place, because we humans ignore things like that. Not that it matters to you that I used the Bible.

The bible was written by humans, that means that it could all just be fake. (No disrespect meant to religious people)
Oh and I forgot to add, if the Adam and Eve story is true, how are there asians, blacks,whites, etc. (NOT BEING RACIST)

 

[injected11]

I whole-heartedly believe we've evolved from something.

From what exactly, is what I've been thinking about a little lately after my friend told me he believed in creationism, then explained why he thought that. He believes that intelligent life found our planet, rich in natural resources and already rich with living organisms, humans not being among them. The intelligent life then used genetic engineering to create a new species, mixing some of their own genetic material with those of Earth's apes to create a creature similar in form to themselves, but with diminished brain capacity so they could be used as a sort of slave species. This species was then left to propagate until it reached sufficient numbers, then was used to harvest many of Earth's natural resources (said this is why many ancient tribes valued gold and sought to accumulate it. Gold is a great conductor.) until the intelligent beings left the planet. We don't find evidence of their being here, because the most likely remnants we'd find would be tools, but we were the tools. From there, humans continued to develop and grow and here we are.

It doesn't sound quite right to me. I was kinda surprised though when a bunch of his ideas had logic behind them that didn't make me instantly think he was batshit crazy. Anyone wanna poke holes?

 

[KingdomBlade]

We evolved from some other animals, it may have taken a very long time but we did evolve, it is impossible for something to have created us, I don't beleive in god either but that has nothing to do with this as if there was a god, there would be no hobos/bums around, everyone would be happy and all that, anyway evolution has been proved and god has not, that is all.
Evolution may be proven but the ideology of God has not been disproved either. Gonna take a second to preach a bit. When man first sinned and took a bite of the apple of knowledge, they now knew right from wrong. Which is why the world isn't a perfect place, because we humans ignore things like that. Not that it matters to you that I used the Bible.

The bible was written by humans, that means that it could all just be fake. (No disrespect meant to religious people)
Oh and I forgot to add, if the Adam and Eve story is true, how are there asians, blacks,whites, etc. (NOT BEING RACIST)

Then again, some historians, have already proved that some parts of the Bible are true. There were sites were Jesus could have been buried. There are ruins where the religious wars in the Old Testaments took place. There was a huge ark found. There are speculations a cross was found. They found a Carbon footprint of Jesus. They even speculate that there's a Garden of Eden in Iran? or was it Iraq?

Also, about Adam and Eve. It's a symbolic representation. Moses never meant it as literal in any way whatsoever. Another, you failed to read my post.

QUOTE(KingdomBlade @ Sep 11 2010, 08:10 AM) Yes, we most likely did evolve, but where did the things we evolve from come from? They could also have been created. That is where two ideas could intertwine and form this idea. This debate is not really true, as these ideas could possibly be very distinct depending on the understanding. The idea of creation for many, is spontaneous, like we just popped out of nowhere. But, it could be much more complex than that. Wouldn't that be possible? We could have evolved from something that was created in a way that was not spontaneous, but in a more.... how should I say it, graceful way? Maybe even a scientific way? Which God most likely decreed.

QUOTE(injected11 @ Sep 11 2010, 08:16 AM)

I whole-heartedly believe we've evolved from something.

From what exactly, is what I've been thinking about a little lately after my friend told me he believed in creationism, then explained why he thought that. He believes that intelligent life found our planet, rich in natural resources and already rich with living organisms, humans not being among them. The intelligent life then used genetic engineering to create a new species, mixing some of their own genetic material with those of Earth's apes to create a creature similar in form to themselves, but with diminished brain capacity so they could be used as a sort of slave species. This species was then left to propagate until it reached sufficient numbers, then was used to harvest many of Earth's natural resources (said this is why many ancient tribes valued gold and sought to accumulate it. Gold is a great conductor.) until the intelligent beings left the planet. We don't find evidence of their being here, because the most likely remnants we'd find would be tools, but we were the tools. From there, humans continued to develop and grow and here we are.

It doesn't sound quite right to me. I was kinda surprised though when a bunch of his ideas had logic behind them that didn't make me instantly think he was batshit crazy. Anyone wanna poke holes?

That's bullshit. Were did he get that idea? If there was anything remotely like that, then wouldn't we have discovered something that huge by now? Like a carbon footprint? Also, wouldn't they have either died because of Dinosaurs or because of the Meteor or the volcano or something? That's the theory of people who've read too much science fiction. Er.....ew.... also, he fantasizes about Aliens and Apes. We don't have alien chromosomes or anything. Wait until they finish the Genome project and show that to your friend.

 

[0ddity]

From what exactly, is what I've been thinking about a little lately after my friend told me he believed in creationism, then explained why he thought that. He believes that intelligent life found our planet, rich in natural resources and already rich with living organisms, humans not being among them. The intelligent life then used genetic engineering to create a new species, mixing some of their own genetic material with those of Earth's apes to create a creature similar in form to themselves, but with diminished brain capacity so they could be used as a sort of slave species. This species was then left to propagate until it reached sufficient numbers, then was used to harvest many of Earth's natural resources (said this is why many ancient tribes valued gold and sought to accumulate it. Gold is a great conductor.) until the intelligent beings left the planet. We don't find evidence of their being here, because the most likely remnants we'd find would be tools, but we were the tools. From there, humans continued to develop and grow and here we are.

Nope. Endogenous retrovirus's and 23 chromosome pairs are good evidence refuting the above, and that we share ancestors with other great apes. You can't just splice genomes together and get fertile animals, you can cross breed very close species, and the best you can get is sterile cross breeds, for example, mules.

edit: fixed antonym

 

[injected11]

That's bullshit. Were did he get that idea? If there was anything remotely like that, then wouldn't we have discovered something that huge by now? Like a carbon footprint?What carbon footprint? Ours? He'd also argue that the pyramids could be argued as that footprint. Also, wouldn't they have either died because of Dinosaurs or because of the Meteor or the volcano or something?...the fuck? That's the theory of people who've read too much science fiction. Er.....ew.... also, he fantasizes about Aliens and Apes. We don't have alien chromosomes or anything. Wait until they finish the Genome project and show that to your friend.

Naysaying for the sake of naysaying is dumb. Back up your points, please.

 

[Terminator02]

First of all, let's get this out of the way:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Creationists and evolutionists, Christians and non-Christians all have the same evidence—the same facts. Think about it: we all have the same earth, the same fossil layers, the same animals and plants, the same stars—the facts are all the same.

The difference is in the way we all interpret the facts. And why do we interpret facts differently? Because we start with different presuppositions. These are things that are assumed to be true, without being able to prove them. These then become the basis for other conclusions. All reasoning is based on presuppositions (also called axioms). This becomes especially relevant when dealing with past events.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fossil record does not in ANY way PROVE that evolution is true, evolution is a THEORY
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A third impassible barrier to chance creation is the fossil record. Despite years of extreme, might we say "frantic", effort to find "missing links", none have ever come to light.

For example: the fossil evidence has long been distressing to evolution theory because it does not show the gradual change of life forms that evolution requires. What it shows is that a series of complex life-forms have appeared as the earth has progressed from supplying the bare necessities of life to an ability to support life at the present level. As the environment for the support of life has changed, new life-forms have suddenly appeared. Many earlier life forms became specialised and then became extinct.

Life-forms change within their kind, none can be realistically shown to have changed gradually into new kinds of life-forms.

Evolutionists claim that the fossil record is incomplete and imply that it is just a matter of time. In fact, all strata since the earliest time of life have been searched and the evidence is conclusive that there are none of the evolutionary missing links that chance evolution requires.

This is not to say that everything is known of the fossil record, but definitely, that enough is known to eliminate gradual evolution as a scientific theory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As for the why is there evil arguement, I think Hercules Cummings explains it best (warning, long read):

Spoiler: Why does God allow Evil and Suffering?

EVIL AND SUFFERING

Probably one of the biggest hurdles for Christians and atheist is due to the insurmountable evil and incalculable suffering present in our world. We often hear and read the news about people tragically dying from an uncontrolled fire, a mother and her baby drowning, or innocent kids being murdered in school from an open fire. It's very difficult to imagine how God would allow all of this to exist much more blame him for not putting an end to this. It's even more difficult to reconcile how evil and God can both exist. When we look around it's not difficult to distinguish that evil is happening all the time and increasingly growing because we are affected by it everyday. The purpose of this is to discuss why evil and suffering exists and does it disprove God's existence? Before we discuss that, we must clearly define evil. Evil for once, is not a physical thing and in a sense, is not created. It's the absence of goodness. Evil is not some black shadowy cloud that lurks above us causing us to sin. It is like a donut hole. A donut hole isn't really a physical thing that exists but is due to the lack of matter in the middle of the donut. That condition exists when something is taken away. Cold is the absence of heat, dark is the absence of light, and sin is the absence of holiness. So evil is neither a physical thing nor a thing that God created. It is a condition due to sin. So since sin exists then can God exist? It's very common for someone to use the classical argument: God either is unwilling to prevent evil or unable to prevent evil because it exists? The popular thinking usually evolves to something like this:

1. God is all-powerful, loving, and perfect
2. A perfect, loving God would create a universe that was perfect (e.g., no evil and suffering)
3. The universe is not perfect but contains evil and suffering.

Therefore, God does not exist

Now a few problems posits with this claim. First and foremost, the presence of evil does not prove that God does not exist. Both can co-exist without contradicting each other. I want to illustrate that by stating the following:....

1. Barbers cut, style, and groom hair

2. There are people out there with shaggy and unclean hair.

3. Therefore barbers do not exist

See where I'm coming from? Just like messy hair, evil does not mean that God does not exist. Then one might take it to the next step and say, "Then why does God allow evil to happen and not stop it?" Now there posits another problem with this question and we will closely examine that. The answer lies with the concept of FREE WILL and misunderstanding of it. Free will is the most loving act of all and God is all love. We know that forced love is not real love. It's like forcing someone to marry someone at the altar. Now, is that real love? Of course it isn't.

So now let's go back to the answer. In order for God to stop all evil, he would have to interfere with one's own will. What if someone wanted to commit murder by their own free will? If God stopped them, He would then be violating His own love for us and His gift of Free Will. Let's take it a step back further- which evil then should God stop: some of it or all of it? Evil is evil no matter what shape, form, or degree including an evil thought. Evil actions are born from evil thoughts. In order for evil to not exist, God would have to program our minds to never think evil and remove our freedom of thought. Essentially we would be nothing more that robots with only one choice available: to make the right choice only! But once again, that wouldn't make us humans and that would not be authentic love. If you cause someone to make a specific choice than that choice is no longer free. God loved us so much that he gave us a choice to love Him back or not, to believe Him so or not.

Another problem with that is who is to say that God allowed all evil? You can prove this right now through a simple project. Look at a pen and pick it up....now was God responsible for you picking up that pen or did you make a choice and committed the action? It was all your choice. Part of evil that occurs is because of a self made choice. God didn't cause that guy to drink too much alcohol on a party Friday night and then caused him to drive home that resulted in killing someone by accident. It was entirely his choice and choices have a consequence of suffering or non-suffering.

Blaming God for someone's evil is like blaming parents for giving birth to their child that grew up and later on gave birth to another child that committed such an atrocity! So who is to blame: The parents, or their parents, or their parents? You might as well not have kids at all to prevent a potential suffering for them and for others in the future right?

If God is all powerful, then He would prefer to create a perfect world than a world full of evil...

Now, that is not necessarily true because of the hidden assumption and misunderstanding that the objector has made that an all powerful God can just create any possible world. All powerful does not mean you can do logical impossibilities such as create a round square. God is all good, all love. God can not sin and can not break His own promise. He never violates his own nature and grants us Free will. With free will comes the potential to choose evil. It is logically impossible to create a physical world with free will and not have the potential for sin to come into fruition. Even a beautiful hand-crafted vase has a potential to break and shatter but that doesn't mean that its created state isn't perfect. Furthermore, just because God didn't do something doesn't prove that He doesn't exist. If you didn't want to lift your left hand, does that mean you don't exist?

Inconsistency of the argument

If evil is evidence that God does not exist then the opposite has to be true. "If good exist, then God has to exist" right? That alone is not sufficient evidence and only proves that evil does not permit God from existing. Once again evil itself is not evidence that dismisses God's existence.

Why does God allow suffering?

A fallacy is that if all evil in the world was removed, there would only be good consequences. That is not necessarily true. We don't know that. But one should know that both pain and suffering is not all entirely bad. Another possibility is that God uses pain and suffering to help us grow and to forge us into excellence. For example: there comes a point where parents can no longer tend to their child's bruises and ouches, and that child must no grow and becomes tempered from mistakes, suffering, and growing pains. Virtue could not exist and have any value if evil did not exist. You can't be considered virtuous or moral unless you are tested with evil. Besides, if God removed all the pain and suffering in this world, we would all become spoiled brats having our own ways. C.S. Lewis puts it in this perspective: God is like a surgeon who operates on us and knows best on how to heal us. The entire surgical process is painful but we will be all right at the end. If God stopped in the middle of the surgery then all of that pain was in vain. Also, suffering and pain is sometimes necessary. Imagine a world where you never experienced pain. Every time you placed your hands above a flame you couldn't feel pain. You could burn to death. Finally, by definition, God has the attributes of all-knowing so He knows the final outcome and purpose as we are limited. We might not see the purpose for evil then and there or at all, but if God is all knowing and all loving, then He is in full control.

THE PERFECT CURE:

Based on what I have discussed so far, there is only 3 cures that could remedy evil and suffering in this world.

Cure 1: Eliminate mankind

Cure 2: Eliminate our ability to do evil

Cure 3: Provide us a way to be holy and give us the ability to do good thus eliminating or minimizing evil

I'm not going to further emphasize on cure 2, or even bring up cure #1. But I am going to leave it up to you to think about if cure #3 was already in motion.