Fighting Games

so is Smash bros a fighting game or what

FAST6191

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I can stand to see some debate in the is Zelda an RPG thing I do from time to time. Smash though seems to be a fighting game through and through.

It might emphasise slightly different skills, or balances thereof, in slightly different ways to a lot of the more conventionally popular franchises (ring out here being dominant*, it being sometimes not a thing** or at least just a lesser used mechanic in other fighting games). That said you are still fighting in appearance. There is still reaction time, move list memorisation, predicting moves ahead of your opponent... all the key things that make up fighting games (and arguably fighting in real life -- there is probably someone out there that has such deep knowledge of anatomy and physical skill as to be able to make it up on the fly, everybody else trains forms and has the counters to other things built into those forms).

*many will have HP modes, and it is not like HP does not influence the potential for a ring out.

**street fighter tending not to have it at all, though I would say the end of a stage acting as a functional stop to it, and causing movement restrictions accordingly, counts as something in this world.

None of this is aided however by the popular Smash tournaments being awfully designed with arbitrary and stupid rules.
 

duwen

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I can stand to see some debate in the is Zelda an RPG thing I do from time to time. Smash though seems to be a fighting game through and through.

It might emphasise slightly different skills, or balances thereof, in slightly different ways to a lot of the more conventionally popular franchises (ring out here being dominant*, it being sometimes not a thing** or at least just a lesser used mechanic in other fighting games). That said you are still fighting in appearance. There is still reaction time, move list memorisation, predicting moves ahead of your opponent... all the key things that make up fighting games (and arguably fighting in real life -- there is probably someone out there that has such deep knowledge of anatomy and physical skill as to be able to make it up on the fly, everybody else trains forms and has the counters to other things built into those forms).

*many will have HP modes, and it is not like HP does not influence the potential for a ring out.

**street fighter tending not to have it at all, though I would say the end of a stage acting as a functional stop to it, and causing movement restrictions accordingly, counts as something in this world.

None of this is aided however by the popular Smash tournaments being awfully designed with arbitrary and stupid rules.
I do get this argument... but the different mechanics you speak of have more in common with platform games than anything FGT related.
The fact that "you are still fighting in appearance" isn't enough to make it a fighting game, afterall how many of the many wrestling/boxing/UFC games are considered 'fighting games' in the same way that Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken, Soul Calibur, Fatal Fury, King of Fighters, Samurai Shodown, etc are?

At best, Smash Bros is in a distantly related sub-genre; Arena Fighter.
 
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SG854

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I do get this argument... but the different mechanics you speak of have more in common with platform games than anything FGT related.
The fact that "you are still fighting in appearance" isn't enough to make it a fighting game, afterall how many of the many wrestling/boxing/UFC games are considered 'fighting games' in the same way that Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken, Soul Calibur, Fatal Fury, King of Fighters, Samurai Shodown, etc are?

At best, Smash Bros is in a distantly related sub-genre; Arena Fighter.
A sub genre within a fighting game genre so its a fighting game.
 

FAST6191

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I do get this argument... but the different mechanics you speak of have more in common with platform games than anything FGT related.
The fact that "you are still fighting in appearance" isn't enough to make it a fighting game, afterall how many of the many wrestling/boxing/UFC games are considered 'fighting games' in the same way that Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken, Soul Calibur, Fatal Fury, King of Fighters, Samurai Shodown, etc are?

At best, Smash Bros is in a distantly related sub-genre; Arena Fighter.
I think we entered the million subgenres and/or needless specificity realm, possibly while having if not conflicting then suitably differing definitions. See also the endless fun here with subgenres of metal/rock music, electronic music or the like.

I would have also put the wrestling, boxing, UFC and whatnot games as fighting games. I would agree they emphasise different mechanics but abstracted out a tiny bit they still emphasise positioning, move lists*, hitboxes, timing and such that analysing the game that way will get you to beat it far more readily than other things. Or go another way would you train an AI to beat them in much the same way (arena out in smash is much the same as lack of guard in a given direction/position from where I sit) between those as you might for street fighter? Would said same AI do something similar for Mario or a driving game? Or if you prefer do you think the score gaining metrics you program in for the AI trainer would be essentially the same between Smash and Street Fighter, or as different as a move to the right platformer?

Now if we were to take it to "brawlers"/side scrolling beat em up in things like Streets of Rage, 2 crude dudes, double dragon, golden axe and such, though many of those feature such modes as well (obvious pick being end of co-op double dragon), then we might have had more scope for a debate. The move to 3d for some of that in things like the bouncer or godhand gets weirder as well as some of those slam back into fighting game territory (give or take Golden Axe Beast Rider). I do also have to wonder where I would put mortal kombat mythologies but now I am just sad for having remembered it is a thing.

Analysing the lineages of some of those might get more interesting -- some things will end up at international karate where I would not say Golden Axe owes that much (cue someone finding a quote from the dev citing it as a massive influence).

*I don't actually like the move list memorisation thing, and await a replacement that makes things interesting here, and don't always consider it an essential element, however it would be in the dividing line for me between something like 16 bit Shinobi wherein positioning, timing... is an aspect but the move set is so limited as to make things different enough to not fall under fighting game.

Back on Smash Brothers if we go one more to the boring as sin tournament stuff then the 2 characters, no items, final destination (for others reading think about the most basic fighting game arena you can get with a couple of platforms) thing I struggle to see as functionality distinct from something like virtua fighter or soul calibur with its ring out, and I am sure we could find an unquestionably fighting game with kept health/loser suffers handicap between rounds.
 

duwen

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Is Virtual On a fighting game?
By most of the specifics you've mentioned it is... and it certainly kind of looks like one - but if it is then you have to start querying whether all third-person arena battle games are fighting games, and by extension first-person games too... and then all distinctions become muddied.

The biggest major difference between Smash (and most other Arena Fighters) and traditional fighting games is down to scoring, life bar, and win requirements. And the differences are literally game changing.

While I personally don't consider Arena Fighters to be in the same category as 2d versus fighters like Guilty Gear or 3d versus fighters like Tekken, my opinion doesn't make me want to see them excluded from FGT events. And although I find Smash massively overrated, I do occasionally find it enjoyable and have enjoyed several other games I also consider Arena Fighters.
 
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FAST6191

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I don't know virtual on, looking it up then harder call than some things and serious ranged aspect complicates matters (though how long now has Street Fighter had such things be a major major aspect*, not to mention Mortal Kombat?).

*it was a seriously noted part of 2 with most characters having such things, I came back in the late 32 bit era/early PS2 and I wondered if I was not watching gunstar heroes or some bullet hell shmup.

Scoring seems arbitrary (in that any number of games will approach it radically differently), life bar is a common (possibly even near ubiquitous) trope but hardly seems defining from where I sit and win requirements seem in line with "do damage, better chance of a pin**" thing.

**not to mention various aspects of soul calibur that will play way easier if you go for ring outs, and several story missions when that became a thing.

On arenas. If we are throwing curveballs at each other then what goes for Dead or Alive? Any description longer than a sentence will necessarily pay special attention to the arenas.
 

Stealphie

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Smash players say it is... I say they should see if their skills cross over to Tekken or MvC2 and then try and claim it is.
Ah yes, make players of one fighting game try a completely different fighting game, and if they're bad at it then it's not a real fighting game. That's dumb.
I play Street Fighter. If you made me play Tekken, I would absolutely suck ass. Does that mean that Street Fighter isn't a real fighting game? Of course not. Smash isn't like traditional fighting games, and that's okay. It's a platform fighter, like Rivals of Aether or Nick All Stars Brawl.
so is Smash bros a fighting game or what ?
some say no...
Yes. It's a platform fighter. Different from your average 2D fighter but still A fighting game.
 

duwen

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Ah yes, make players of one fighting game try a completely different fighting game, and if they're bad at it then it's not a real fighting game. That's dumb.
I play Street Fighter. If you made me play Tekken, I would absolutely suck ass. Does that mean that Street Fighter isn't a real fighting game? Of course not. Smash isn't like traditional fighting games, and that's okay. It's a platform fighter, like Rivals of Aether or Nick All Stars Brawl.

Yes. It's a platform fighter. Different from your average 2D fighter but still A fighting game.
That's not what I said. What I was implying is that the vast majority of fighting game mechanics transfer across the multitude of games in the genre... Most Smash 'skills' more closely replicate those of a platform game.
I play a wide array of fighting games - purely because the base skill set DOES transfer so easily between them all... Platform/Arena Fighters/Brawlers, not so much.
On arenas. If we are throwing curveballs at each other then what goes for Dead or Alive? Any description longer than a sentence will necessarily pay special attention to the arenas.
How's that a curveball? DoA, other than aesthetically, is barely different to any recent Tekken or Soul Calibur - certainly not different enough to have anyone consider it not be the exact same genre. They obviously all have their own unique attributes, but they're all very easily definable as 3D versus fighters.
 
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cvskid

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Nope, smash bros is not a fighting game. If it was smash players would be able to play more than just smash bros. Outside of leffen who is the main exception i have never seen any smash players play fighting games. Smash players want to be apart of the FGC yet they don't interact with FGC members. With FGC you see different scenes interact with each other.

You also see smash bros at FGC events yet the smash community can't be bothered to have fighting games at smash events.
In general it just feels like the smash bros scene is closed off in it's own little bubble away from everyone else. It's like living in a house with a complete stranger you never talk to.

No disrespect to the smash bros scene that's just how i personally see things.
 
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Stealphie

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Nope, smash bros is not a fighting game. If it was smash players would be able to play more than just smash bros. Outside of leffen who is the main exception i have never seen any smash players play fighting games. Smash players want to be apart of the FGC yet they don't interact with FGC members. With FGC you see different scenes interact with each other.

You also see smash bros at FGC events yet the smash community can't be bothered to have fighting games at smash events.
In general it just feels like the smash bros scene is closed off in it's own little bubble away from everyone else. It's like living in a house with a complete stranger you never talk to.

No disrespect to the smash bros scene that's just how i personally see things.
Ah yes, make players of one fighting game try a completely different fighting game, and if they're bad at it then it's not a real fighting game. That's dumb.
I play Street Fighter. If you made me play Tekken, I would absolutely suck ass. Does that mean that Street Fighter isn't a real fighting game? Of course not. Smash isn't like traditional fighting games, and that's okay. It's a platform fighter, like Rivals of Aether or Nick All Stars Brawl.

Yes. It's a platform fighter. Different from your average 2D fighter but still A fighting game.

This is like asking a CSGO player who's never played another FPS to play TF2. It won't end well.
 

appleburger

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I think Smash is definitely a fighting game!

It has the fundamental mechanics that fighting games do - but the movesets are extremely simplified, and emphasis is placed on movement/platforming.

However, it's not a 2D fighter, obviously it's a platform fighter - so lumping it in with the likes of Guilty Gear and KOF doesn't really make sense.

That being said, playing Ryu in Smash still carries over a lot from Street fighter - it's just that vertical positioning is way more extreme in Smash Bros., which comes with a different skillset among players.
 

FAST6191

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Transferring between games says more about the sameyness of some games than it does about the concept as a whole from where I sit.

If doing FPS we could debate portal but I can probably go easier than that -- at one point I was really quite good at Battlefield 4, and can click on your head very fast. I moved to COD (or indeed out of hardcore mode on BF4) and I did not know the maps, hitboxes, recoil patterns, weapons, movement speed, what FPS types refer to as TTK (time to kill, how many bullets it takes to put someone down basically) which meant I had my head clicking abilities and general use cover/concealment and denial of area tactics but struggled considerably. Not being able to move from smash and compete reasonably at pro level [insert 900 word name of current street fighter title] means little from where I sit.

On Dead or Alive then I would rank its use of arenas up there with almost anything I saw on smash brothers, especially the lesser of them (captain falcon and the jump around floats ones maybe exceeding DoA's general stuff).

Fan tournaments being a bunch of isolationist types might matter for what game you pick to play/follow but ultimately matters little.
 

appleburger

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Nope, smash bros is not a fighting game. If it was smash players would be able to play more than just smash bros. Outside of leffen who is the main exception i have never seen any smash players play fighting games. Smash players want to be apart of the FGC yet they don't interact with FGC members. With FGC you see different scenes interact with each other.

You also see smash bros at FGC events yet the smash community can't be bothered to have fighting games at smash events.
In general it just feels like the smash bros scene is closed off in it's own little bubble away from everyone else. It's like living in a house with a complete stranger you never talk to.

No disrespect to the smash bros scene that's just how i personally see things.
Nah, that doesn't add up. Being good at one game in a genre doesn't mean that will transfer over to another game. They can still require different skillsets. Especially with, say, strategy games. A genre can contain a lot of games with unique elements that take time for players to master.

The smash tournament scene being siloed also does not make it any more or less of a fighting game. That logic doesn't add up. And the support for the game by its own community is easily in the top 5 for fighting games at the moment.

Plus, Smash has been at EVO before, which is exclusively for fighting games. So I don't see much room for debate on whether or not it fits into the fighting genre.
 

duwen

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@cvskid ...bruh, we're on our own in here... figures with this being a Nintendo-centric site.
Let the Smash players think they're part of the FGC if it helps them - Let them ban Minecraft Steve too because one of the three best Smash players in the world got beat by a 'nobody' using him... much like how they all but banned Bayonetta in Sm4sh, and bitched about Metaknight previous to that. That level of tantrum throwing over broken characters/mechanics, while not isolated to the Smash community, is definitely more vitriolic and entitled in the Smash community - in traditional FG's stuff gets patched or players gitgud.
 
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appleburger

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@cvskid ...bruh, we're on our own in here... figures with this being a Nintendo-centric site.
Let the Smash players think they're part of the FGC if it helps them - Let them ban Minecraft Steve too because one of the three best Smash players in the world got beat by a 'nobody' using him... much like how they all but banned Bayonetta in Sm4sh, and bitched about Metaknight previous to that. That level of tantrum throwing over broken characters/mechanics, while not isolated to the Smash community, is definitely more vitriolic and entitled in the Smash community - in traditional FG's stuff gets patched or players gitgud.

Oh, please. There's bitching in every video game competitive scene. Is League of Legends not a MOBA because it's community is so whiny?

Smash bros. is obviously a fighting game, regardless of how its community behaves. That's a whole other discussion entirely.
 
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duwen

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On Dead or Alive then I would rank its use of arenas up there with almost anything I saw on smash brothers, especially the lesser of them (captain falcon and the jump around floats ones maybe exceeding DoA's general stuff).
Not sure why you're picking on DoA specifically when Tekken 7 also has 'interactive' stages that can cause damage... regardless, it's essentially just another 'corner' mechanic, which all fighting games have... except Smash.
 

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