PKHeX vs RNG abuse pokemon

Discussion in '3DS - Games & Content' started by Meliodas2255, Feb 22, 2017.

  1. Meliodas2255
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    Meliodas2255 common sense guy

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    Other than bragging rights and feeling the satisfaction that you caught a "perfect" pokemon.

    Are there any actual differences between a legally generated pkm and a RNG'd pkm.

    I understand that generated pkms can be legal, and RNG'd pkms are legal as well. I'm more interested to see if you can actually tell them apart.

    Could someone upload an RNG'd Pkm file? I would like to use pkhex to generate a similar pokemon and use a hex editor to see if there are any differences at all.

    and/or if someone could enlighten me I would truly appreciated.
     
    Last edited by Meliodas2255, Mar 1, 2017
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  2. adiktus

    adiktus GBAtemp Regular

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    I could be wrong but I think that for each seed that generates a PID, each one has a corresponding encryption constant. It may be that there are valid PID/EC pairs and randomly generating ECs may render the pokemon invalid. But there seems to be no hack checks that compare these two so far.
     
  3. Meliodas2255
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    Meliodas2255 common sense guy

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    After doing some reading here about how the game calculates the Encryption and PID. and doing a bit of more research in the projectpokemon site. I have convinced myself that there is not differences other than "bragging rights and feeling the satisfaction that you caught a "perfect" pokemon" which might not sound like a lot but it means a lot. Pkms are really a whole bunch mathematical equations that are used by the game when creating a pkm, emulated by PkHeX or forced by RNG tools.

    Both of these methods can be classified as cheating.
    PkHeX creates legal pokemon
    The G7 RNG tool creates legal pokemon

    I have come to the conclusion that a RNG tool better when it comes to generating "perfect pokemon". While you can create valid pkm in PKHeX unless you have done a bit a research, and you know what you are doing, you are open to make mistakes. So it's a heck of a lot easier for the game to just make it for you plus the game automatically updates the in-game log too.

    Based on what i read I don't think the PID/EC pairs makes them different since you can make valid PID/EC pairs in PkHeX. and like you said there are not hack checks to differentiate legal/legit pokemon so it doesn't really matter. However, RNG pkm will always pass legality checks.
     
    Last edited by Meliodas2255, Mar 1, 2017
  4. Shady Guy Jose

    Shady Guy Jose GBAtemp Fan

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    The thing with generating your own PKM files, apart from human error, is the ever-looming possibility that there may be some unknown factor that we don't know of. That and things such as overlooking a small detail such as ball/level/moves mismatches and the like. Especially if the Pokémon has gone through multiple generations (such as something that supposedly has to be caught in Colosseum, traded to Emerald for a tutor move, Pal Parked to Platinum for the Defog HM, traded to Heart Gold so that it can be Transferred with Defog, and then finally Transported to Bank).
     
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  5. Meliodas2255
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    Meliodas2255 common sense guy

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    When generating pkm outside the game there's two very important factors to take into account. The tool you use and user input.

    The tool

    PkHeX is not a perfect tool, but it is the best tool out there and ironically has the best legality check tool but is still WIP. PKHeX is still being perfected, so an error in its coding can break the way that a pkm is generated.

    User Input

    The things you mentioned can be avoided by an user doing research. Generating a pkm can be time consuming, especially if you want to generate pkm from previous generations in a new generation save. For example, you have to take into accounts what moves were prohibited by poketransfer or palpark for example. This previous generation stuff is one of the reasons why pkhex has not extended its legality check to older games, yet.

    You can have valid generated pkm with PkHex, if you know what you are doing. It's not complicated, but rather simple you just need to surf the web to know what values are actually possible for pkm you want to create.
     
  6. Shady Guy Jose

    Shady Guy Jose GBAtemp Fan

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    That doesn't invalidate my point about unknown value meanings. And although it can obviously be avoided by research, I was just trying to show that the number of things a user can slip up in is just way too big.
     
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  7. Meliodas2255
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    Meliodas2255 common sense guy

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    nope, and you are totally right. there's so many things that can slip up. It's a heck of a lot easier for the game to do it for you.
     
  8. elCerebrain

    elCerebrain Newbie

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    There is a slight difference between generating a pokémon with PKHex and RNG-abusing and that is that when you generate the pokémon, you're not currently playing the game, technically you didn't catch/hatch/trade it so it is clearly illegal/cheating and although it could be read as 100% legal by the game, you still know it isn't. On the other hand, when you RNG a pokémon, even if you use tools for keeping track of everything (like the Clock-abuse for the Tapus), you are playing and catching the pokémon, but using a method that game itself has to get what you want.

    Between pokémon players that concept is widely accepted. We can try to do RNG-abuse as much as we want to get the perfect pokémon we wish, but generating that pokémon is plane lame, there is no point to it unless you don't care about not really playing the game.
     
  9. RustInPeace

    RustInPeace Samurai Cop

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    That's a bit close minded. While I do things somewhat manual, breeding and recently using RNG tools, soft resetting in Gen 6 and some of Gen 7, I do gen for myself sometimes. I gen a lot for people, and in the competitive aspect, most of the people I genned for don't have the time to do it the long way. So could you say they don't care about really playing the game? Most of the people have lives and the legit way of things is rather tedious and can be very long. Also for me, I gen BR pokemon at the last minute for official competitions like the recent International thing mainly because my own competitive dex isn't anywhere near complete, and again, lack of time plus not wanting to spend hours or even days teambuilding, unlike some people (which is ridiculous, but it sees results I guess).

    I do admit that the advances in RNG for this generation is a whole new world for me, never doing it before, and it's kind of fun to game the system and getting your results almost on a perfect streak. It's only going to improve, which is nice. I just wish RNG in Gen 6 was researched more because that's still a ball ache. Doing the RNG way requires more effort than just soft resetting and hoping to be lucky. Also for the first time ever, I give a damn about breeding shinies, with RNG egg abuse being as simple as accepting/rejecting eggs in Sun/Moon.
     
  10. Majickhat55

    Majickhat55 The Red Woman

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    I'll probably end up using the same analogy I did on reddit but anyway... I try to remain non-biased since I gen but only for others. I only play Pokemon for the game, or clone boxes for WT to be nice. Most people will argue that PKHeX is cheating while RNG isn't because of directly editing the save file, vs using a 3rd party program to determine values and "catch" them in game. However, the base of that argument is the fact that the pokemon was "created" by the game itself and not the program. That should beg the question then, why would using hacked parents to breed a perfect pokemon also cheating? (It is, look it up according to the Pokemon Company, any children of hacked parents are also hacked). So all of you people using 6IV Dittos for MM are just letting the game randomly create your hacked pokemon versus having absolute control via PKHeX. You're still cheating, just wasting your own time for the sake of it. Which bring me to my next point, time.

    The only somewhat credible argument against genning is regarding time. The time spent cycling in circles, breeding over and over etc, is not skill training, it's busy work. You're wasting time and bragging about doing absolutely nothing. The value of your time is relative, as is time itself. That means your time is really only valuable to you. There is nothing to gain besides reaching a personal goal by spending ungodly amounts of time on breeding. Not to mention half of you stick a coin under the stick and watch TV anyway, yeah you're so awesome because you put the game on auto while you scratch your ass. That's JUST as lazy as genning besides you waiting forever to get a less perfect result. If the argument was "I spend all my time training on showdown (which is genning more or less to practice) and still lose!" You can attribute that to skill, which has no bearing on time unless that time is spent practicing said skill, not doing mindless busy work.

    Now I've told you why your time is worthless, I can say why it shouldn't matter one way or the other. Parameters. Gamefreak itself has a set of "hack checks" to more or less keep ALL pokemon within limited means. It's been said countless times but often falls on deaf ears, pokemon must meet legality standards to be used online. Period. You cannot run into one with 999HP, or 600EV in ATK, or a Venusaur with Flamethrower... The game just won't let that happen and people that "hate hacks" know this, they just keep pretending anything goes when it doesn't. The point is that regardless of how the pokemon is created, they can only be used within their preset limited means. Your time breeding doesn't automatically make your pokemon more valuable, nor does it make it any less competitive when it comes to skill. Ultimately what it boils down to is how you use your pokemon, not where they came from. Sure, waste your time breeding on auto while eating cheetos just for bragging rights, then scream HAX! when you get crushed by someone who was practicing their approach.

    Just because something is unfair doesn't mean it comes with a disadvantage/advantage. Genners have to work too you know, you can't just click a pokemon and BOOM! No they have to research legal parameters, met locations, movesets, origin games etc etc. So there is actually a lot of time put into it, more or less the same that goes into breeding a 6IV with a hacked ditto. (Which BTW is still considered a HACK by the Pokemon Company). My neighbor and I drive the same car, she got hers free but I had to pay for mine. Is her car better than mine? Nope. The only reasonable argument I could have against it is the fact she got it easier, not that it works better; because it doesn't. Same goes for Pokemon. Period. So if we decided to race and she beat me, it has nothing to do with the fact she got her car free.... See how that works?
     
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  11. RustInPeace

    RustInPeace Samurai Cop

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    You're the person who posted that on r/3dshacks? That's a great analogy and overall argument. Note something though, the coin trick is void in gen 7, instead you have to wear out your thumb on the circle pad moving your Tauros around and around that small space outside the nursery. I don't really like that, gets tiring on the fingers quick.

    Genning does come with gaining knowledge. Today someone requested a Double Edge Kecelon, not knowing that it's Gen 3 exclusive as said move is a tutor one for it. He wanted it paired with Protean, hidden abilities didn't exist back then, quick search on Serebii, I learn to immediately shut someone down on that.
     
  12. Majickhat55

    Majickhat55 The Red Woman

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    Pokemon battling is equal, not equitable. This is true for most things in the world.

    [​IMG]

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    Yeah that was me Lol. Verlis hates me so much.....
     
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  13. elCerebrain

    elCerebrain Newbie

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    I apologize. I didn't make myself clear with don't really care about playing the game, what I meant was that people that generate pokémon don't really care about in-game playing, that is the longest part of the every pokémon game, even if you are breeding or shiny hunting to competitive play.
     
  14. Meliodas2255
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    Meliodas2255 common sense guy

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    Like I said both methods are classified as cheating not by my terms but by Nintendo terms. People can sugar coated all they want but it is still cheating. I can live with it. I use PKHeX for nostalgia sake not for competitive play and even when I do play online I still get my ass kicked. Online play involves more strategy and skill and less about pokemon themselves. The new game mechanics allows you to have 31s pokemon by bottle caps and easier ev training.

    The only reason people are salty is because the problem with PKHeX and RNG tools is that it devalues pokemons. Going back to the car anology, now everyone can have the same car as you for free by two methods
    1. (PKHeX) they gotta assemble it themselves with easy instructions. Do it right it works fine, do it wrong it explodes or eventually it will stop passing those safety inspections.
    2. (RNG tools) You can tell the car company how you want it.

    but the fact lies that you can't brag about it anymore because it so easy to get no body might care. However, you can still have the self satisfaction that you worked hard for it.

    At this moment there's no hex difference between pkm files of RNG and well made pokemon. so you can't literally tell them apart. This will continue to be true as long as PKHeX is not broken, and you make proper edits.

    The only reason RNG tools are better than PkHex is because it updates the in-game log automatically. However, this doesn't matter for multiple reasons
    1. AFAIK Pokebank does not get logged in the in-game log. so you can make the assumption that pokemons just appear in your pc. which is literally what you do with PKHeX.
    2. You can make "perfect eggs" this only helps if you are genning current version pokemons. so no transfer moves. when eggs hatch your records get updated.
    3.you can genned the pokemon. send it to pokebank, restore previous save and get the pokemon from pokebank.
    4. you can update the records manually. (this implies you know what tabs to update)
     
    Last edited by Meliodas2255, Feb 28, 2017
  15. Majickhat55

    Majickhat55 The Red Woman

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    That's the point though, none of that self satisfaction has any bearing on battles. That is the entire reason people argue against "hacks" in general. It's not because they're jealous they can't do it too, they can just as easily. It's because they think it gives an advantage over skill when it only gives one over time. That's it. If you don't even battle then it's a moot point altogether. The only reason most people that gen are better than breeders is because they spend more time practicing versus doing busy work. It really doesn't matter where they got the pokemon.
     
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  16. Demifiend

    Demifiend The bored one

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    And besides, is not like official competitions or tournaments in Pokemon matter much, literally the only valid reason people access the "Official International Pokemon Contests" on the Global Link is to obtain the mega stones not available prior to these tournaments, which imho it shouldn't have been like this, but hey, is Nintendo so we can't doubt the decisions!

    Not only that, most of the people in there suck, most of the rental teams pokes have poor choices of moves, poor choices of items and sometimes they are not that balanced, if you go to a Rating Battle or a Friendly Competition Battle chances are, you won't likely meet someone with decent skills and actual logical thinking when it comes to picking moves and using them in battle, the only moments when it can get more or less challenging are the tournaments for the mega stones (and the master/adult category, to boot) and maybe some people from Rating Battles, but most of them are "meh"

    I swear I have met far more competent trainers over Pokemon Showdown than in the real games, now I don't expect common people in Link Battles or Free Battles to get a built-in team with good competitive pokemon, but at the very least one should expect more from Global Link battles, and sadly, you won't get any sort of challenge when it comes to those trainers, I fought with people using Gumshoos and another time I fought someone using a Floatzel, see what we are getting at?

    As the previous user mentioned, it is impossible to get mons with 999HP or 1600IV/EV in all stats, online. And is not that easy to circumvent the online legality checker since the game will run a failed connection the moment you activate NTR CFW or the sorts during or prior to an online battle, so your chances of running those are zero to none, your only choice here are legit or legal Pokemon to be played with

    PKHeX is just a means to get the Pokemon you want faster, but at the end of the day a battle is not set by someone using "legit breed pokemon" or "using legal pokemon through hex" is the skill that matters, is the logical mindset that you need when it comes to those battles, the only "advantage" that someone would have is if you fight someone with subpar stats and nature, but when you're fighting in some sort of tournament or online competition, the least you can do would be to bring a set of Pokemon that don't suck, and this rule should be applied not only in online competitions but also in regular online battles, since the most likely outcome of said fight would be the one with bad nature and terrible movepool getting the short end of the stick i.e losing pathetically

    And PGL had a lot of trouble for new users, it was only until recently that new users could access the site, and during those times people couldn't access PGL, Nintendo still hosted tournaments and competitions for mega stones without caring a bit about newcomers to the series, which begs the question, if Nintendo doesn't care if people enter their competitions or not, why should someone care about getting "legit" pokemon according to their dictionary instead of getting them through other means? I think is far enough to push someone to register a crappy site like PGL to get mega stones, which btw, can be produced through hex editors anytime of the day and week, so what Nintendo is doing here...is terrible
     
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  17. Meliodas2255
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    Meliodas2255 common sense guy

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    That is true, there are valid reasons to use PKHeX. its not only to gen pokemon but it also give you the opportunity to obtain those items you weren't able to get because of reasons. For example, I was one of the many that couldn't get into my PGL account. I missed the rewards of the world mission because of it. Thanks to PKHeX I can now enjoy the rewards as well. The mew pokebank is another example not everyone is old enough to have a credit card to pay for pokebank which was the only way to obtain the mew z-stone. Others live in remote areas where it is difficult to obtain as well. $5 dollars might not seem much in the US but in other countries it can be a lot.

    Pkhex emulates the official transfer. so if you only have your gba game and sun and moon. you can transfer it without having to obtain a gen IV, gen V game. and saves you a lot of "your precious time" of using the official transfer method. when it is drag n' drop in pkhex.

    It also allow me to revive my long lost favorite pokemon. I lost my gba pokemon games, and RB gbc games stop working long time ago. It was because of PKHeX that I actually started playing Pokemon games again.

    In my opinion PKHeX enhances my pokemon gaming experience.

    satisfaction is good to have, it feels great. but it has not bearing in online competitive play. Strategy and skill is what matters not the time you invested in growing the pkm or how you got it. As long as Nintendo/GF deems it legal it's fair play.
     
    Last edited by Meliodas2255, Feb 28, 2017
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  18. RustInPeace

    RustInPeace Samurai Cop

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    I'm not disagreeing with the wrongs being committed, but I don't think Nintendo is to blame. Nintendo own the servers I guess, but the machinations of Global Link and the status of unreleased items and pokemon in the main games is all Game Freak. I think Nintendo only cares about how much the games sell, and copyright stuff, as seen with takedowns of Prism and Uranium. Almost everything else is attributed to Game Freak. I think my mindset is based on watching pro wrestling critically, inasmuch as questioning why they did this and that, and the answer I come to, and have to accept, is that they never thought it through. So in the case of the mega stones, they probably never considered adding them all in the game, which is really disappointing. There's incentive with the competitions, but other than that, it's a stupid waiting game since they guarantee everyone will get them, battlers will just get them a month or two early, and with that, you only need to do 3 battles to qualify. Also annoying is the scarcity of apricorn balls, only 1 of each in the game, and now they do distributions if global mission participants hit a certain number. Fortunately that has happened twice, but still, the reward for each is 1 fucking apricorn ball. Really? That begs for hacking, which is what I did in one game, caring more about using those for legendary captures, is it fair that these pokemon with low capture rates to begin with are weakened to 1 HP, put to sleep, and break out of your only Fast Ball, Love Ball, Moon Ball? Hell no, that's torture.

    Anyways, there wouldn't be a hacking vs. legit debate if people stopped caring about it, because really it's not an issue. There also wouldn't be this argument if Game Freak didn't half-ass things. Synchronize's 50% rate should be at least 75%, bottle caps should raise IVs period, not in the superficial way done, bottle caps shouldn't be so scarce, breeding is instantaneous, they could even do a fade to and fade from black to signify an egg was produced, it's shorter than spinning around on your Tauros, hidden power is customizable, you go to a guy who changes your HP, and with that, HP shouldn't be tied to IVs anymore especially since there's no Fairy one on account of all possible HP spreads being taken. You'd think in their quest to make the games easier for kids that they'd do more to change more intricate features.
     
  19. RustInPeace

    RustInPeace Samurai Cop

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    I'm not disagreeing with the wrongs being committed, but I don't think Nintendo is to blame. Nintendo own the servers I guess, but the machinations of Global Link and the status of unreleased items and pokemon in the main games is all Game Freak. I think Nintendo only cares about how much the games sell, and copyright stuff, as seen with takedowns of Prism and Uranium. Almost everything else is attributed to Game Freak. I think my mindset is based on watching pro wrestling critically, inasmuch as questioning why they did this and that, and the answer I come to, and have to accept, is that they never thought it through. So in the case of the mega stones, they probably never considered adding them all in the game, which is really disappointing. There's incentive with the competitions, but other than that, it's a stupid waiting game since they guarantee everyone will get them, battlers will just get them a month or two early, and with that, you only need to do 3 battles to qualify. Also annoying is the scarcity of apricorn balls, only 1 of each in the game, and now they do distributions if global mission participants hit a certain number. Fortunately that has happened twice, but still, the reward for each is 1 fucking apricorn ball. Really? That begs for hacking, which is what I did in one game, caring more about using those for legendary captures, is it fair that these pokemon with low capture rates to begin with are weakened to 1 HP, put to sleep, and break out of your only Fast Ball, Love Ball, Moon Ball? Hell no, that's torture.

    Anyways, there wouldn't be a hacking vs. legit debate if people stopped caring about it, because really it's not an issue. There also wouldn't be this argument if Game Freak didn't half-ass things. Synchronize's 50% rate should be at least 75%, bottle caps should raise IVs period, not in the superficial way done, bottle caps shouldn't be so scarce, breeding is instantaneous, they could even do a fade to and fade from black to signify an egg was produced, it's shorter than spinning around on your Tauros, hidden power is customizable, you go to a guy who changes your HP, and with that, HP shouldn't be tied to IVs anymore especially since there's no Fairy one on account of all possible HP spreads being taken. You'd think in their quest to make the games easier for kids that they'd do more to change more intricate features.
     
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  20. Demifiend

    Demifiend The bored one

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    True, is as you said, is the half assed stuff done by GF that wasn't checked upon the release date, I think I may have faulted Nintendo too much in here rather than the actual company who developed the games, anyway

    Don't you think is amazing how not only bottle caps are scarce but your pokes need to be at Lv.100 in order to actually use them? and don't you think is even more amazing that grinding to level 100 is noticeably slower compared to previous titles? (and the removal of Blissey Bases for these, of course that's needed) ... sigh, also, in regards of "Making the games easier for kids" is actually "Keep EXP Share for them and everything will be fine" but don't change the stuff that should be fixed for starters, like IV's for HP, removal of National Dex, sacrifice a fast and stable gameplay of prior titles for graphics, just so that it will run slower on triple battles and arena matchs (god forbid anyone who wants to play them at stable FPS)

    Now, when it comes to mega stones, yeah, they shouldn't be locked behind competitions or tournaments that probably most people wouldn't even bother to enter nor care about it, people just want to fight and use their favorite items or mons regardless of what people say, same with balls or some berries which really begs for a good save editing here and there to fix the stuff that should be on the games, already, and you know what else? we wouldn't be having these discussion either if it wasn't because people just gave up with that, you see countless hacked mons on the GTS, you see countless mons given as gifts or trade for this on the Internet and all forums/social media that allows it, you see countless hacked pokemon even on official tournaments and competitions, this is now not a matter about "legit vs non legit" this is more about a matter of GF not doing the job they should be working upon, which is giving access to the player to play comfortably and without any issues.

    Say what you will about Super Training, but it was extremely good because you could see what was your EV spread, if you combine that with the IV spread chart from the Battle Tree, you will have easier results to get the Pokemon everyone wants, but giving the mechanics of bottle caps and grinding this is simply just a work that takes far more time and effort than needed, people want to get into the fight, not do pointless stuff like putting a coin under your circle pad to run a Tauros or to grind over and over, just to evolve and obtain the moves you want for a poke (also the good IV spread if you want it decent)

    Someday we will get a Pokemon game with good mechanics for both raising and collecting
     
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  21. SliderCry

    SliderCry Newbie

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    First of all, genned pokemon are never legal or legit, those terms both mean that they are caught according to the rules which isn't the case. Also people who gen aren't better. aDrive fought in a tournament against wolfey and cybertron who both use genned pokemon (maybe not all the time) and he won 2-1 against both of them.
     
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