Gaming DS games possibly 3DS-enhanced?

[DiscostewSM]

Nintendo will change the shape of the cartridge, so braindead people don't try to put the square peg in the round hole. Gameboy Color changed shape, and so on, leading up to the 3DS carts.

I made myself quite clear at the beginning of this thread that this topic has nothing to do with 3DS games played on the DS. This is about DS games on the 3DS will the possibility of them getting enhanced.

And why are people assuming that they'd have to "duplicate" the entire game so that a game card would have two versions, one that works for each device? That is absurd, and not what I'm trying to say. A game may be 128MB, but it's game code (binary) may only be 500KB, and while they could have two versions of that on a single game card, I'm trying to look at this from a downloadable view, one that wasn't around during the earlier years of Nintendo's consoles and handhelds.

For a more in-depth look of where I'm going at, what about some of these games on the PS3 or XBox360 that have downloadable patches? They can't write over the game disc, so they have to store it somehow, like on the system itself, and while they could load the original, and patch the game every single time it is ran, they could also have a pre-patched version that gets downloaded, and that is ran instead, so no on-demand patching necessary (or patched once and stored on the system). If Nintendo is smart enough (I know someone is gonna address that comment), they'll do the same with the 3DS, because we all know that games nowadays are not perfect and may require a patch or two in their lifetime. This would be a good additional method than to only limit updated versions by cards sold at retail. Now back to the DS.

For all we know, Nintendo has every single official DS game stored in their database, source code and all, and all they'd have to do is take the code, use a DS3DS-compatibility APIs (since all official developers have to use Nintendo's APIs from the SDKs as they can't have direct access to the hardware), recompile the "game code", and then keep those in their database, so that when a 3DS detects a DS game inserted and the system is online, it'll ask (or maybe not) about an update, which would then download the update, store it on the 3DS, and then run that when that particular game is executed.

Now, perhaps they would set a price for games that have "enhancements", but for those that don't, they could still do the update method at no cost to them to prevent DS piracy from dripping onto the 3DS. Take for example the DSTWO, which runs a modified version of Fish Tycoon (or was it another tycoon game?). If the 3DS have a D/DSi mode, then this modified version could get through unchecked. But, if Nintendo had an updated version of the game that was downloaded automatically (forced unlike other titles that weren't used for this purpose), and the 3DS ran that version instead of the one on the DSTWO, they could essentially block it, as the game is not hack-modified, and it is now a 3DS-native app.

Can I be any clearer than that? (Don't answer that

)

 

[dsfanatic5]

@OTC

Totally sorry

Based on some of the responses, I did think this was the other topic. Now that game systems have internal memory, I think it's very possible to ehance older games on newer systems. I know my original Xbox games look much better on my 360, due to increased resolution.

Console games have gone the way of patching, much like PC have always done, so additions and enhancements are possible. I just don't think that Nintendo would invest in making older DS games 3D, when they could repackage it in a 3DS cart, and sell it again. Nintendo has had success with doing this, like my examples of Gameboy games being re-released on the GB Color, slapping the "DX" after the title, but not adding new content or updated graphics. I realize the GB games would have to be reprogrammed to have a larger color pallette, and the GBC was incapable of recieving patches at the time.

We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Westside]

All of you are talking about re-releasing the game for the 3ds, whereas wii and NGC is pretty much the same architecture wise. Also, enhanced graphics from the original are nothing new, the new super mario bros. for the wii played on a PC emulator on 1080p looks absolutely spectacular compared to the orginal. I can't see why they can't recalculate the angle slightly in 3d rendering to reproduce a 3d game. Anything is possible, in fact the concept of doing it is simple, but Nintendo will probably ignore these ideas. Pokemon games could be so much better if it was based on speculations, unfortunately it is not.

 

[koji2009]

All of you are talking about re-releasing the game for the 3ds, whereas wii and NGC is pretty much the same architecture wise. Also, enhanced graphics from the original are nothing new, the new super mario bros. for the wii played on a PC emulator on 1080p looks absolutely spectacular compared to the orginal. I can't see why they can't recalculate the angle slightly in 3d rendering to reproduce a 3d game. Anything is possible, in fact the concept of doing it is simple, but Nintendo will probably ignore these ideas. Pokemon games could be so much better if it was based on speculations, unfortunately it is not.

Because you can't simply take an engine designed to only render one image and tell it "Hey, can you do that, then render another one at the same time?" It just won't work. Especially because DS games WILL be run in compatibility mode (3ds features turned off, just like DS and gamecube games can't access DSi and Wii hardware). This isn't speculation, Nintendo will that because of how advanced DS piracy is... They can't risk a broken DS protection being used to crack the 3DS protections.

 

[Westside]

All of you are talking about re-releasing the game for the 3ds, whereas wii and NGC is pretty much the same architecture wise. Also, enhanced graphics from the original are nothing new, the new super mario bros. for the wii played on a PC emulator on 1080p looks absolutely spectacular compared to the orginal. I can't see why they can't recalculate the angle slightly in 3d rendering to reproduce a 3d game. Anything is possible, in fact the concept of doing it is simple, but Nintendo will probably ignore these ideas. Pokemon games could be so much better if it was based on speculations, unfortunately it is not.

Because you can't simply take an engine designed to only render one image and tell it "Hey, can you do that, then render another one at the same time?" It just won't work. Especially because DS games WILL be run in compatibility mode (3ds features turned off, just like DS and gamecube games can't access DSi and Wii hardware). This isn't speculation, Nintendo will that because of how advanced DS piracy is... They can't risk a broken DS protection being used to crack the 3DS protections.

Well, I mean it is a possibility seeing how nvidia's 3d vision is pretty much "Hey, can you do that, then render another one at the same time?"

 

[DiscostewSM]

For all we know, the 3D-effect is calculated via hardware, rather than the developers having to code it manually via software, so all the developers would have to do is toggle it on and off for what they want affected by it.

 

[koji2009]

For all we know, the 3D-effect is calculated via hardware, rather than the developers having to code it manually via software, so all the developers would have to do is toggle it on and off for what they want affected by it.

You can't do that completely in hardware (IE with no software cues) this is because you have to create a second 'camera' that is fully capable of interacting with the environment. Now, there are probably all sorts of "standard" ways to do this via simple commands from the SDK that every developer gets to work on the system... but as games get more advanced and developers start making custom graphic engines they will have to rely on their own ability to code a proper second "camera"

DS games were never designed with this in mind. DS games were designed with a very very limited set of hardware in mind (err... that is exactly the DS console

). To double render each image, you'd have to make the DS hardware (NOT 3ds hardware) work double which would cause drastic slowdowns at best, and more likely than not simply break the games.

The majority (or is it all? I don't have an nvidia card) have to be designed to use 3d vision. Programmed from the ground up to take advantage of it. z3d has "3d drivers" that work on any graphics card... http://www.iz3d.com/driver but they are very buggy (many games won't load at all or only display double images with no 3d effect) and only give a semi-3d effect because it's working from the video card's memory to try and "force" a second camera that doesn't exist. This requires tons of manual configuration AND massively effects performance negatively (average 50% decrease since it literally has to do double the work per frame). Neither of which would be possible with DS on 3DS.

 

[DiscostewSM]

In order to have a proper 3D-effect, the two cameras used to generate it must be derived from a single camera point between the two, for which each is a reflection of the other, by distance, orientation, etc along the plane the original is creating, with a focus point much like our eyes require. If they were to become independent of each other, then the ability to represent a view we are not accustomed to becomes available, where it'll act like our own eyes are independent of each other, sending information to our brains that can't process it correctly because there is no focus. That is my reason as to why the 3D-effect is more hardware than software based, not to mention the physical screen requires such a setup in the first place and cannot deter from that. To have everyone create systems that would have to act all the same is pointless when they can all be generalized into one solution, and being in hardware not only removes the need to have it as part of code, but it's hardwired integration would also end up processing the information it gets faster than software would do it.

As far as the DS is concerned with how it handles polygons, the DS works by loading in, for every polygon, a set of vertices, texture coordinates, and normal vectors, as well as polygon information like where in VRAM the texture is located in, its alpha component, etc. When the full entry is loaded through the same set of memory registers (3 points for triangles, 4 for quads), the DS handles transforming of that data based on it's internal matrices, and stores the results in an internal buffer, to be ready for being read and drawn every single frame after the buffers are swapped (it has two sets of two buffers) on a scanline-basis.

It is my belief that the 3DS will take in a single set of information for each polygon as well as how it is handled by the 3D-effect, and within hardware, it becomes duplicated and sent to two separate matrix transformations where it is processed and then stored into separate buffers to be rendered to the two sections of the screen, whether the 3D effect is on or off.

If the 3DS handles polygon input the same way as the DS does, then the setup is already there, and even if it wasn't, DS games would have to work with the different hardware anyways, as the hardware is not the same as the DS has. The DS have GBA-like background layers which have a slightly different layout to them vs the layers on an actual GBA, but when the DS goes into GBA mode, it doesn't have a completely separate set of layers that are GBA-specific. It uses what the DS has, but the wiring redirects the data when in GBA mode so the layers get set up so they'll act like GBA layers.

The difference between the 3DS and Nvidia's method of the 3D-effect is that Nvidia is pushing the video cards to do more that they weren't designed for, whereas the 3DS was natively designed for it from the ground up. The PS3, for example, was not built around the idea that it would process the 3D-effect, so Sony had to develop a software solution to allow it, but that came at the price of having to use more resources, which lead to lower resolution sizes and frame rate decreases. If an operation is already built in (which is what I believe the 3DS does in hardware with regards to the 3D-effect), then it takes away nothing from the base resource pool.

Lack of proof reading ftl

 

[koji2009]

-nods- That makes sense... I still don't think nintendo will allow any access to 3DS hardware simply because the DS has just been so thoroughly pirated that risking any hardware access to 3ds components opens an avenue of attack. While nothing has really come from DSi hybrid games, Nintendo has undoubtedly noted that hacked saves do exist and that if there was vested interest it could be a problem.

 

[M[u]ddy]

And why are people assuming that they'd have to "duplicate" the entire game so that a game card would have two versions, one that works for each device? That is absurd, and not what I'm trying to say.

A little off topic, but it's is not really that absurd. Some GameBoy Colour games had two roms. One Super GameBoy enhanced rom and one GameBoy Colour enhanced rom.

 

[geoflcl]

Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say that DS games could offer the 3D effect when played on a 3DS. That seems like it'd be a bit too much for the poor carts. Perhaps it is somehow possible (after all, we're speculating about an unreleased console here), but I find it quite unlikely. at this time of writing

However, I do believe that it's entirely possible for DS games to recognize that they're being played in a 3DS, and offer some sort of bonus features outside of a 3D effect. After all, this isn't unheard of for Nintendo handhelds. The Zelda Oracle titles' Advance Shop comes to mind, as does a few of WayForward's Game Boy Color games, which offer extra levels or color enhancements when played on a GBA. I think it's entirely feasible that DS games could offer similar extras when played on a 3DS, granted the developers take the time to incorporate them.

So, in my opinion, there's hope, but not three-dimensional hope.

 

[Juanmatron]

Can you use touch screen to play your GBA games? Same here.

 

[Rydian]

Mnhh, those GBA/GBC improvements were to push sales of the newer system, I don't think that will be a method Nintendo uses this time (since they'll lack the 3D, which is the major selling point).

 

[monkat]

Can't wait for a 3D Pokémon Grey!

 

[DSoryu]

I understand this part:

Pokemon B/W + NDS Phat/Lite= Normal Nds Game.
Pokemon B/W + NDSi/XL = wi-fi camera option enhancement.

Pokemon B/W + N3DS = 3D Pokemon Gaming, also the C-Gear runing trough the tag mode the 3DS gives rigth?



Well, I understand that because the 3DS tag Mode and the C-Gear are exactly the same, but you have to turn it on on the normal DS, and in the 3DS is always on, also, DIDN'T YOU NOTICE THE BIIIIIGG SKY ARROW BRIDGE TAHT OBVIOUSLY TRIES TO GET A 3D EFFECT???? ALSO THE PETALS ON ROUTE 1???

Got it? or I need to explain with pears and apples XD...

 

[mangaTom]

Idk how a game will become a 3DS enhanced,probably using the motion controls like what pokemon did minus the infrared thingy on the card.

 

[DiscostewSM]

Seems people still don't understand where I'm getting at, even with multiple examples.

The game "program" is separate from the game "data". If the program portion were to come from somewhere else other than the game card, but loaded into memory, would it still run? Yes, it will.

Anyone remember UltraHLE? It is one of the first emulators to not only run N64 games very well on a computer, but it also incorporated "dynamic recompilation", which literally means it took the N64 game program, and not only converted the instructions to code understood by the computer, but it also stored them so they wouldn't need to be reconverted again, and even optimized the code to make use of what the computer was capable of. It compiled the games at runtime from one platform to another, not interpreting. What I'm trying to get at is that Nintendo can take the original DS game program, recompile it to 3DS specifications, and have that available via download. The two are the same, except the former is done at run-time, and the other is not, as it would already be pre-compiled. That would at least have DS games running as 3DS native games, but with no enhancements other than stuff that could pertain to anti-piracy and such, as that example is supposedly built into the ARM11 CPUs.

As far as enhancements, that is where the developers come into play, taking their original code, and modifying them to include operations specific to the 3DS, where afterwards, they'll be compiled, and available to download. This method can even be used for fixing bugs, for both 3DS and DS games.

 

[koji2009]

UltraHLE didn't simply use DynaRec (though that helped a lot) It also used HLE (High Level Emulation) where instead of emulating every instruction trying to get 100% accuracy, you instead use the native 'host' hardware to simulate the end results... That's why even at the peak of UltraHLE's history, it's compatibility was only 40-50%... It's just few people cared because they got to play Ocarina of Time and that's all they really cared about.

Sidenote aside.... To actually address your point... Your method would mean that each 'compatible' game would have to basically be rewritten (more correctly, ported) to 3ds and be made available for download. That's a lot of work for games already out with minimal financial gain. This is a viable method of releasing a 3DS 'enhanced' game (still playable on a regular DS).

The only other way would be with a general DS "emulator" on 3ds... but that would come at the cost of compatibility.

As for the "gba" enhancements to GBC games, these actually don't use the GBA hardware at all, it's 100% gbc code that checks the gbc bios and then sees if it's a regular gbc bios, or a gbc bios tagged onto a gba. There were game genie codes for gbc games with gba enhancements to get the 'bonuses'

 

[DiscostewSM]

I brought up UltraHLE and dynamic recompilation to prove a point, that even with already compiled code, it could be mostly converted to the native hardware. My thought was using the original source code with no emulation, which I'm sure is stored in Nintendo's database. Now, because all official games are developed with Nintendo's SDKs that did the connections between the developer code and hardware, a "DS->3DS adapter" SDK could then replace the DS SDK used prior, handling all the input functions the same exact way but with a 3DS backend, and compiling the same exact source code with this new SDK to result in a 3DS native binary. Nintendo would develop this adapter SDK and handle the compiling and storing of the new binary program to be downloadable, and the developers of the games would not have to do a thing, unless they wanted to add improvements, bug fixes, etc, which they could sell as a form of 3DSWare if they wanted to (but would require confirmation that you have the game by checking the Slot 1 port for that game).

How would this be beneficial, even if no enhancements are made? Well, if they did this with Fish Tycoon, the original game would continue to run but as a 3DS game, but for flashcards like DSTWO, which uses a modified version of that game program, would be disabled because the game now is running off a 3DS version of the program stored on the device instead of the DS modified version stored on the card.

 

[smilodon]

Does the gba games have touch controle on ds? No...