atheism

[xcalibur]

These manuscripts are verified for their authenticity, translated and retranslated constantly

That was my point. No translation is fully accurate. Even now they continue to update everything with the latest findings. More importantly translation and interpretation would differ from scholar to scholar. It's an ever-evolving series of findings. The problem is these findings aren't widely known. It's not as if every Christian is willing to upgrade their Bible annually to the latest "version". If anything I would imagine a process like that would lower the number of people who are unwavering in their belief.

Version 1 of what we know as the modern Bible: "This is the Bible! It is the word of God. EVERYTHING IS ACCURATE. IF YOU AY OTHERWISE YOU GO TO HELL"

Version 2: "This is version 2, the last one was a bit off, our bad. But THIS version is 100% accurate, to doubt it is to commit the ultimate sin!"

Version 3: "Ooookay, turns out our last version was WAAAAAAAAAAAY off. But this one, this is the real deal."

Version 4: "Uhhh... um... new version guys. Guys? Where are you going! I swear this FINAL version it's accurate! I SWEAR ON THE HOLY BIBLE."

Version 5: "You know what? F%#& this. I've been a religious devotee for years, preaching the word of this so-called book of ULTIMATE TRUTH."

My point is, all these different versions, all these different interpretations, most of the general religious population probably doesn't even know what the CURRENT "truth" is.

lol, so true....

i dont want to start anything here but thats not the case with the koran
its always kept in the same arabic it was made in
and wheneevr its translated the original is right next to it

 

[SpitfireInferno]

I believe that there is a huge dick floating in space far far away.

You can't prove me wrong, therefore I'm not wrong.

 

[Sinkhead]

These manuscripts are verified for their authenticity, translated and retranslated constantly

That was my point. No translation is fully accurate. Even now they continue to update everything with the latest findings. More importantly translation and interpretation would differ from scholar to scholar. It's an ever-evolving series of findings. The problem is these findings aren't widely known. It's not as if every Christian is willing to upgrade their Bible annually to the latest "version". If anything I would imagine a process like that would lower the number of people who are unwavering in their belief.

Version 1 of what we know as the modern Bible: "This is the Bible! It is the word of God. EVERYTHING IS ACCURATE. IF YOU AY OTHERWISE YOU GO TO HELL"

Version 2: "This is version 2, the last one was a bit off, our bad. But THIS version is 100% accurate, to doubt it is to commit the ultimate sin!"

Version 3: "Ooookay, turns out our last version was WAAAAAAAAAAAY off. But this one, this is the real deal."

Version 4: "Uhhh... um... new version guys. Guys? Where are you going! I swear this FINAL version it's accurate! I SWEAR ON THE HOLY BIBLE."

Version 5: "You know what? F%#& this. I've been a religious devotee for years, preaching the word of this so-called book of ULTIMATE TRUTH."

My point is, all these different versions, all these different interpretations, most of the general religious population probably doesn't even know what the CURRENT "truth" is.

We've done about this in RS recently... (GCSE level). There are 3 main ways to interpret the Bible, each denomination uses one or more of these methods. I'm not Christian, but I find it interesting to study them...

Literalists
These people believe that what the Bible says it truth, 100% truth and must be followed to-the-letter if you want to call yourself a Christian.

Fundamentalits
These people believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. This is because in (the New Testament of) the Bible, God doesn't actually say anything. The people who wrote the Bible are just writing what they think God would approve of etc. They believe that contradictions or inconsistency in the Bible are down to lack of knowledge on our part.

Liberalists
They believe that the Bible contains spiritual truths, but it was written by Man and Man makes mistakes. The general ideas in the Bible are true, but following it to-the-letter all the time is not always possible. We have to look at the teachings in the Bible and apply them to our current situation as we see fit.

I'm not an expert, just a curious student. I believe this to the truth, take it as you will...

- Sam

 

[Dirtie]

Is it my free will that decides I'm not sure about whether some kind of God exists or not? Or is that simply a chemical reaction in my body that balances that way?Â

Why can't it be both? I don't see why they should be mutually exclusive (I think that's the right term). If there is a God who is the creator of nature itself, who says he didn't program it in to the way our very bodies work?

I don't even know if I believe this myself, but it's a possibility.

 

[Westside]

Go on and live your pathetic and meaningless life. You are one pessimistic, unhappy, jerk. Religion is not all about believing that one entity that rules all, it's about guiding us in a righteous, ethical, and moral path. Although there are many who claims to be "religious" and sin at the same time, they do not represent the rest of us, and those I do not respect. However, you have no reason to look down on all religious people, as much as I do not look down on all atheists. On top of that, can atheists themselves provide a solid evidence that God is not real? Until aesthetics have complete evidence, what you said was completely useless. You stand on the same ground as us. I don not hate non-hypocritical atheists, and I look upon every human being in equal grounds no matter what background or religion they have, I am open minded. You are almost the same as the very people you are trying to insult. Believing in a religion does not make you a "dumbass". I hate those hypocritical atheistic bastards who thinks religious people are automatically idiots. The greatest minds in the history were religious. Einstein once said: "Atheists Miss the Wonder of the World". Although I do not completely agree with that comment, I've seen one too many pessimistic atheists.

Hey, keep the attitude in check. I don't have anything against people with imaginary friends in the sky. Except when they plant bombs in the name of jihad. Or unleash their full-force nerd rage. Learn to parse sentences, dude! I was talking about the religious NUTS, not against any honest people who fear god. Go ahead, read at least once that post of mine you quoted!
But honestly, among most religious people I know, religion is a dangerous gateway toward surrendering personal responsibility and personal freedom. Deists like Voltaire or Einstein have typically more open minds than people who hate pork, women, gays, blacks, "outsiders to the flock", and it is true that a lot of atheists have simplistic reasonings; But to call out atheism because they can't bring proof of something that doesn't exist? What the fuck is wrong with you? I don't go around asking people to prove Superman doesn't exist. That would make me look stupid! Last, why call me a pessimist? Please prove why not believing in god makes you pessimistic? Because I said the only way to get rid of atheists is to present one, solid, *proof* of god's existence? Look at that poor kid just three posts up who thinks everything he will do in life is due to predestination. Tell me if *that* isn't pessimistic!

Superman is a horrible example. I do not believe that guy is necessarily a white dude with beard that lives on clouds. The reason is the philosophical proof that there is always a greater being. However, that greatness has to be finite, and the greatest is the one that we refer to as god. I don't see any reason why that is impossible. The other side of the god, "the creator" , I believe is more of a factor, an influential factor that is magnificent enough to be god.

Oh, and English is my fourth language, I'm not a linguistic genius. I'm sorry if I had confused you with my horrible misunderstandings and bad grammar.

 

[tongyan]

This is one of my first posts in the GBATemp forums.. but here goes.

As a Christian i trust the Bible because:
1. its unique in its continuity
2. It has the most existing manuscripts compared to all other historical documents
(There are other reasons, but i will broaden only on these 2...)

1. The Bible was written by more than 40 different authors in a course of more than 1000 years... AND it flows and doesnt contradict with each other. In addition, all the 40+ authors all came from different backgrounds, classes, and walks of life. The Bible was also written in 3 different languages (Old Testament in Hebrew and Armaic and New Testament in Greek), in three different continents (Asia, Europe, and Africa), and in many different forms of writing (such as poetry, history, biography, autobiography, prophesy, etc...) I don't see how that wouldnt prove that man could come up with it by himself, it has to be influenced by God.

2. The New Testament has more than 24,000 manuscripts with the earliest that dates only 25 years after the original text was written. Second place is the Iliad by Homer and that only has 643 surviving manuscripts. It was written about 900BC and the earliest copy available 400BC around a 500 year difference. The average gap between the earliest available copy and the time written is around 1000 years (For example: The earliest substantial manuscript for the Seven Plays of Sophocles was written more than 1,400 years after his death).

Also, the NT contains ~20,000 lines, of which 40 lines are in question (0.5%), while The Iliad has ~15,600 lines, of which 764 lines are in question (5%). Of those .5% only 1/8 are anything more than stylistic differences or misspellings--they involve nothing more than missing letter in a word, misspellings, or reversal of 2 words. Only about 50 have real significance; not one essential point of Christian doctrine rests on those disputed readings. If one could trust that the Iliad is reliable enough to tell of that story, why couldn't one trust the Bible?

As for the Old Testament, like someone said before, the Dead Sea Scrolls not only proved that the text was accurate (It was identical to the Modern Hebrew Bible in over 95% of the text. The 5% mainly consisted of slips of the pen or variations in spelling), it also pushed the earliest manuscript back to around 100 BC.

Although It has been edited and retranslated several times, it doesnt change any of the fundamental beliefs that christians believe. Plus, all the different translations (NIV, ESV) are there to make it easier for different kinds of people to understand.

As for evolution, I cant deny it isn't there because animals and even people have to adapt to survive. However, i do not think that it can be an explanation of how all the species came to be. In a sense, if evolution is true, it means that every time you use antibacterial sanitizer, you are killing your "distant cousins"-- the bacteria. Time + Met conditions + Bacteria doesnt = Humans... Believing in creationism doesn't mean that God specifically made every single animal and thing both existing and extinct all in one go with a zap of his magic wand... I think it might have been like.. the root of each different species (like 1 dog/wolf like animal that adapted to its different place after it was scattered and became different dog animals like foxes, wolves, etc...) was created and they changed into the different kinds and breeds that we see today, and not one single root for every living thing. The Cambrian explosion proves this.

I can go on and on.. but this is getting sorta long... so yeaaa

 

[zeppo]

you know, just because a whole lot of people believe in the same crap doesn't make it any more true. Besides, you didn't even give any reasoning to back up the idea that people were created purely through evolution. all you said was that time+met conditions+bacteria doesn't equal humans. How are you planning to prove this statement?

 

[tongyan]

you know, just because a whole lot of people believe in the same crap doesn't make it any more true. Besides, you didn't even give any reasoning to back up the idea that people were created purely through evolution. all you said was that time+met conditions+bacteria doesn't equal humans. How are you planning to prove this statement?

Darwin stated that all species came from 1 common ancestor, and because bacteria were the earliest form of life, wouldn't that mean that humans came from bacteria? It has to have been something more than a whole mess of random mutations that occurred in such a simple life form to make a complex human being. If you don't want to believe its up to you, but in the end, its cuz my Bible tells me so.

 

[MrKuenning]

These manuscripts are verified for their authenticity, translated and retranslated constantly

That was my point. No translation is fully accurate. Even now they continue to update everything with the latest findings. More importantly translation and interpretation would differ from scholar to scholar. It's an ever-evolving series of findings. The problem is these findings aren't widely known. It's not as if every Christian is willing to upgrade their Bible annually to the latest "version". If anything I would imagine a process like that would lower the number of people who are unwavering in their belief.

Version 1 of what we know as the modern Bible: "This is the Bible! It is the word of God. EVERYTHING IS ACCURATE. IF YOU AY OTHERWISE YOU GO TO HELL"

Version 2: "This is version 2, the last one was a bit off, our bad. But THIS version is 100% accurate, to doubt it is to commit the ultimate sin!"

Version 3: "Ooookay, turns out our last version was WAAAAAAAAAAAY off. But this one, this is the real deal."

Version 4: "Uhhh... um... new version guys. Guys? Where are you going! I swear this FINAL version it's accurate! I SWEAR ON THE HOLY BIBLE."

Version 5: "You know what? F%#& this. I've been a religious devotee for years, preaching the word of this so-called book of ULTIMATE TRUTH."

My point is, all these different versions, all these different interpretations, most of the general religious population probably doesn't even know what the CURRENT "truth" is.

Wow dude, dont know were you think you got your "Facts" but you could hardly be further from the truth.

For starters you are right about one thing, there are religions that do exactly what you wrote. There are religions (Wont name any) made in the past few centuries that throw out the old documents and rewrite them.

However the Bible is the most historicly accurate document excisisting. Even atheist scolors admit it being historicly accurate to a the nth degree. We have over 26,000 original manuscripts written in dozens of languages and when compared to each other they match learnly word for word.

Pilates, and Sacretes, and other anchient scolors that we all believe, have maybe 5-19 original manuscripts.

The bible has been proven over and over to be the most accurate document. Weather you believe in God, or that Jesus is who he said he is. Thats up to you. But the bible isnt some mosh of information that is revised over and over.

 

[dakeyras]

It has to have been something more than a whole mess of random mutations that occurred in such a simple life form to make a complex human being.

Why? It might seem unlikely that random mutations resulted in human beings, but it does not have to be. It only is when you view humans as the only possible end result. We like to think of ourselves as oh so important. But maybe if the mutations had not resulted into us, they had resulted in smart spiders, smart frogs, or not a smart anything. We like to view ourselves as the best and end station of evolution. I'd say we should be careful in that. We're not any better than the other creatures on this world. Just different.

Edit: and yes, the bible is pretty accurate historically, however, the word historically means..that it's only historically so. All the..supernatural features, all the details..are disputed. The big lines aren't, but that's not what the bible is about. It's about the force of God behind it. It's about the details that make the stories.

 

[MrKuenning]

How can you say we arnt any better than the other creatures of this world? Oh sure the monkey can use a stick as a "tool" and the spider can make a web. Comon, these things arent inventions, written language electronics. We are not the same as animals at all.. Its reducilus to think that we just chanced out on being able to invent.

 

[Hitto]

bible version one : God loves the jews, hates everyone else, forbids them to eat pork, promises them a country. OH AND MOST IMPORTANT god is perfect, can't make mistakes.
bible version two : God loves the christians, recants about that pork thing, recants about the promised land and settles for a sucky "it's in your mind" version of israel. OH AND MOST IMPORTANT god is perfect, can't make mistakes.
bible version three : God loves the muslims, hates everyone else, ESPECIALLY jews and christians, promises the muslims a country and delivers, goes back to hating pork, and decides that the last two versions are false. OH AND MOST IMPORTANT god is perfect, can't make mistakes. Except admitting that the last two versions were a big mistake...

Yeah, the bible sure is an accurate book.
You know what bothers me the most? If any of you were born a few thousand kilometers away from your birthplace, your "truth" would be different by a few orders of magnitude.

 

[MrKuenning]

Wow, weather you agree with the bible or not, you cant throw muslem and christianity into one pot. The are entirely diffrent religions, and they contridict each other. God doesnt.

 

[dakeyras]

Its reducilus to think that we just chanced out on being able to invent.


Why? Our brains are pretty much a continuation of the brains you find in animals.

Edit: QUOTEyou cant throw muslem and christianity into one pot.

Why not? They have a common origin.

 

[MrKuenning]

Probably cause the guy who invented them had somthing right.

 

[enarky]

Yuck. Bible accurate? Come on! If you believe in it, that is. Believe in what you want, but don't bother me with your beliefs. I'd recommend reading a real history book instead.

EDIT: and I recommend closing this topic, as religious discussion tends to lead to nothing.

 

[dakeyras]

We lucked out on our brains. I'm not saying that a monkey is as smart as a human. I'm saying that the fact we have a bigger brain does not make us the best. I'm sure a monkey can't invent a car but they also don't rage wars, they also don't destroy that planet. For a 'chosen creature' we break a lot of stuff. And if you look at animal brains you can find the same parts in our brains. Our brains are animal brains, only a few things have been added. To think of ourselves as the chosen people and the end of the line..is just plain narcistic.

 

[cubin']

So about the bible being extremely accurate. Does that mean Noahs Arc and the whole adam + eve thing was real?

 

[Ace Gunman]

and I recommend closing this topic, as religious discussion tends to lead to nothing.

I've been keeping an eye on it. So have other staff members. It's actually been fairly civil. And by having it in the testing area people (such as I

) are free to do as many random things in this topic as we like. At the risk of jinxing it, I'd actually like to say while we may not all share the same beliefs, the fact that we can discuss the topic openly (in the testing area no less) without some sort of a holy war of biblical proportions breaking out is nothing short of a miracle. Heh, religious puns.

 

[azotyp]

If we would came from monkeys, there would be no purpose to live, because we would have no souls, so we couldnt go th hell, so we could kill anyone and dont feel bad about it (animals do that, if we are animals what keeps us from killing someone).
(I think it is concious, but if someone think that we have no souls, that man could kill anybody, because that would not be sin).