ARM CPU Laptops

[Flame]

With apple now using arm cpu's in all they products now. when do you think we'll get decent arm cpu non apple laptops? I mean with Google having its own cpu's now, this could mean a opportunity for them with Chromebooks.

im sure they is a deal between Microsoft and Qualcomm. all laptops which contain Qualcomm CPU must have windows. which is not very forward looking by Qualcomm.

what's your thoughts on this subject?

 

[mituzora]

I'm sure we'll get some arm-based windows laptops that are decent at some point. the biggest problem at least from what I can tell is that Qualcomm doesn't have anything like Rosetta. Qualcomm's X86 emluation is slower than molasses, which is incredibly important for an OS that's been running x86 for decades.

There's already some linux arm-based machines out, but they aren't numerous, but at least they have an open-source backing that will get them better native compatibility than Windows-based machines at least early on.

ARM-based machines are going to be the portable future. Their architecture is mature and well-understood, they're super efficient, and it's just a matter of time until other companies follow suit.

 

[Flame]

I'm sure we'll get some arm-based windows laptops that are decent at some point. the biggest problem at least from what I can tell is that Qualcomm doesn't have anything like Rosetta. Qualcomm's X86 emluation is slower than molasses, which is incredibly important for an OS that's been running x86 for decades.

There's already some linux arm-based machines out, but they aren't numerous, but at least they have an open-source backing that will get them better native compatibility than Windows-based machines at least early on.

ARM-based machines are going to be the portable future. Their architecture is mature and well-understood, they're super efficient, and it's just a matter of time until other companies follow suit.

very well said. plus the factor that arm laptops will have much better battery life then x86 based cpu. when you just want to do some web surfing with simple productivity it might be the very go in the future for portable devices.

 

[tech3475]

im sure they is a deal between Microsoft and Qualcomm. all laptops which contain Qualcomm CPU must have windows. which is not very forward looking by Qualcomm.

IIRC it was the opposite, all Windows ARM machines had to use a QC processor, although that deal may be expiring. The source of the deal may be some work being done between them e.g. x86 emulation.

My thoughts on replacing x86 with ARM, right now I have two big concerns:
1) Compatibility- in particular x86/x86-64 emulation but also other hardware/software compatibility issues e.g. device drivers, locked down bootloaders, etc.
2) Upgrade support (i.e. will computers see reduced support like with W11 on older systems or something similar to smartphones/tablets?)

To be clear, I'm aware of the potential benefits and Apple AFAIK have had success with Rosetta 2 (although I doubt that will last beyond a few years when they remove it). I can see at a minimum a subset of Windows users with laptops which use ARM because of theoretical extended battery life and being more potentially practical than e.g. an iPad.

 

[Flame]

all Windows ARM machines had to use a QC processor

wait that hurt my brain. so much questions arise from that. like who does that benefit? isnt windows and office the bread and butter of Microsoft... why does Microsoft a company with a market cap of $2 Trillion is so obsessed with intel based cpu's?

 

[tech3475]

wait that hurt my brain. so much questions arise from that. like who does that benefit? isnt windows and office the bread and butter of Microsoft... why does Microsoft a company with a market cap of $2 Trillion is so obsessed with intel based cpu's?

If the deal meant an improved emulator, then it could potentially give ARM a boost.

Intel have even 'warned' those who may try to emulate x86 (likely aimed at the above deal):
https://www.extremetech.com/computi...-microsoft-qualcomm-x86-emulation?source=synd

 

[The Catboy]

I’ve always wanted to see ARM improve and challenge Intel. I am actually rather excited to see more ARM-Based laptops, especially Linux-oriented ARM-based laptops

 

[Deleted member 114266]

I haven't found a date for when it's over, but supposedly the deal between Microsoft and Qualcomm is being allowed to expire. The deal also only allowed Qualcomm chips for Windows ARM devices.

Chrome books are also readily available in ARM options and can have Linux replace their stock OS.

You've been able to get a laptop experience with ARM for years on a tablet with a keyboard case. For office work and media consumption, they are fine.

For gaming, I'm not convinced. Everyone always says x86 is terrible, but look at what happened in the console space with the move from RISC systems over to x86 in the PS4/XBO gen. Then look at the ARM-powered Switch being emulated on the x86 Steam Deck.

ARM will have many cheap, power-efficient, and "good enough" devices. But we've already had that for years. And many people don't have a PC or laptop. They just use their phone or tablet. Will these be enough to convince them to move back to a laptop form factor?

 

[tech3475]

I’ve always wanted to see ARM improve and challenge Intel. I am actually rather excited to see more ARM-Based laptops, especially Linux-oriented ARM-based laptops

I suspect it's mainly going to be Chromebooks......and even that may change considering Google's developing a new kernel.

 

[The Catboy]

I suspect it's mainly going to be Chromebooks......and even that may change considering Google's developing a new kernel.

For Google, I suspect the same. Especially since they’ve been working on making ChromeOS and Android more intermingled and compatible. But I am thinking more in the process of laptops like Pinebook and MNT. Or ARM-based single-board computers like the Raspberry Pi, which can always be turned into a laptop.

 

[tech3475]

But I am thinking more in the process of laptops like Pinebook and MNT. Or ARM-based single-board computers like the Raspberry Pi, which can always be turned into a laptop.

The problem I've seen with these is cost, I ended up just buying a portable monitor and an RPi400 because it was relatively expensive for a 'PiTop' system.

 

[The Catboy]

The problem I've seen with these is cost, I ended up just buying a portable monitor and an RPi400 because it was relatively expensive for a 'PiTop' system.

From my understanding, that’s largely due to the chip shortage. Hopefully, things become more stable and prices start to drop again

 

[tech3475]

From my understanding, that’s largely due to the chip shortage. Hopefully, things become more stable and prices start to drop again

At least in the case of Pi based systems, I’ve known them to be relatively expensive even prior to the shortage, particularly since a number of them require you to supply your own Pi.. I suspect it’s more down to economies of scale and the relatively small companies behind such products.

 

[mituzora]

For gaming, I'm not convinced. Everyone always says x86 is terrible, but look at what happened in the console space with the move from RISC systems over to x86 in the PS4/XBO gen. Then look at the ARM-powered Switch being emulated on the x86 Steam Deck.

Oh Absolutely! X86 is the GOAT for gaming. ARM will have it's place, but it will never surpass X86 for gaming purposes. Game companies chose X86 because it gave their developers a much more understood sandbox to play with; it also makes porting tools and engines trivial between the console and the PC port, and overall. X86's architecture is going to stick around for production and high performance machines for a long time, because in terms of overall raw performance, ARM's RISC architecture doesn't touch X86's CISC architecture.

ARM will have many cheap, power-efficient, and "good enough" devices. But we've already had that for years. And many people don't have a PC or laptop. They just use their phone or tablet. Will these be enough to convince them to move back to a laptop form factor?

There's still a relatively large market for laptops, especially since the whole pandemic, and work from home jobs on a huge uptick. though, I am well aware that the phone and tablet market are significantly higher, for the people who still want and/or need a laptop, ARM CPUs are going to be real nice.

On the business market, I think they will be plenty helpful. If windows can make a really solid ARM release with proper X86 emulation, I'm sure a lot of business would greatly benefit. AD runs the businesses world and an ARM based laptop capable of being part of an AD would be pretty marketable. Windows just needs to tweak Windows on ARM to make it more viable, like better X86 emulation in the leagues of Rosetta.

Phones and tablets dominate the market, but Laptops aren't going to go away. They would greatly benefit from ARM, and with Apple's success, I guarantee that companies like Microsoft are absolutely looking into joining that success

 

[SAIYAN48]

ARM might be the future for mobile devices, but I don't think it will surpass x86-64 on desktops...

 

[Deleted member 114266]

There's still a relatively large market for laptops, especially since the whole pandemic, and work from home jobs on a huge uptick. though, I am well aware that the phone and tablet market are significantly higher, for the people who still want and/or need a laptop, ARM CPUs are going to be real nice.

On the business market, I think they will be plenty helpful. If windows can make a really solid ARM release with proper X86 emulation, I'm sure a lot of business would greatly benefit. AD runs the businesses world and an ARM based laptop capable of being part of an AD would be pretty marketable. Windows just needs to tweak Windows on ARM to make it more viable, like better X86 emulation in the leagues of Rosetta.

Phones and tablets dominate the market, but Laptops aren't going to go away. They would greatly benefit from ARM, and with Apple's success, I guarantee that companies like Microsoft are absolutely looking into joining that success

There are already mobile device management solutions for both iPhone and Android that integrate into AD. The devices can be provisioned before going out based on their S/N and IMEI so a phone could be shipped directly to a remote worker and when they first power it on it hits Apple or Google and auto-configures to the MDM. The same can be done with custom images on PCs and Laptops that are imaged at the factory before going out.

I'm not sold on Microsoft creating a great x86 emulator for ARM. They had a whole Android on Windows emulation layer for both standard Windows and Windows Phone which never made it out to general release.

I see people fawning over the M1 and M2 Mac minis and wonder what the big deal is. For normal office desktop use, we've had 1 liter PCs and mini PCs for a number of years and they range from 15-45W.

For content creation, the M2 does look interesting, but then it comes down to the claim RTX3090 performance***. (*** when running RTX3090 at crippled power profile to match M2 power usage) But since when do creators care about power usage versus having their renders output exponentially faster? I'm more interested in what Intel is doing with Arc. Its design has the potential to upset Nvidia CUDA's market dominance.

It's possible ARM laptops might become more accepted mainstream as right now a very large number of schools have young children on iPads, and then move them to Chromebooks in the 4th or 5th grade. Then again when I was in school all the computers were Macs. Yet today Windows and PC dominate.

The death of x86 has been prophecied many times over the decades. Yet here we are 44 years later and it's still around. If you expand the definition of computer ARM is the more popular platform when you look at phones and tablets. Just like Windows isn't dominant when you also include all those servers and other devices (routers, etc) running Linux. But having an x86 Windows machine not be what most people consider a computer, that's a mass shift I just don't see happening in at least the next 15 years.

 

[Flame]

ARM might be the future for mobile devices, but I don't think it will surpass x86-64 on desktops...

for now anyway. but you never know what the future holds or what type of new tech might come along. i can see a future where servers will have powerful x86-64 based cpu. with everyone using like could based services with a screen which has an arm cpu.

 

[Deleted member 114266]

for now anyway. but you never know what the future holds or what type of new tech might come along. i can see a future where servers will have powerful x86-64 based cpu. with everyone using like could based services with a screen which has an arm cpu.

I could see the reverse happening with servers having an extremely large number of low-power ARMs cores. Unless it's a render farm having an extreme number of simultaneous processes could outperform servers with much faster single core performance in some pretty common scenarios.

Both Intel and AMD are pushing having FPGAs on their server CPUs which would allow processes to rewire the chip to process certain tasks much more efficiently. And in general, FPGAs are much slower than modern CPUs, but they are able to excel at certain tasks that would take a normal CPU that's 100x as fast to perform.

And while it's possible things change, I'd say we are 5-10 years away from a swing back to local processing. If nobody has noticed we have a cycle in IP between main frame to local system to terminal server to local system to cloud computing <-- you are here.

 

[SAIYAN48]

One problem with ARM CPUs is that none of them are LGA so you can't use them in a DIY desktop.