Gaming Are all VC not filtered?

[Jacobeian]

I played the last boss sound in the virtual console version through the sound test, and they do sound quite similar.. Without bias, I played it in Kega Fusion as well and it does not sound as good as the virtual console one in terms of closeness.

do not forget to enable High Quality YM2612 option in Fusion, it changes a lot

Anyway, i think you are still biased by the fact VC emulators are "official"...
The comparison videos i posted (high frequency sounds are definitively wrongly reproduced) or the fact that injection of a different game can make the VC emulator acts wrong (which means the emulator uses game specific hacks or does not emulate all the features of the console) speak for themselves in my opinion.

That does not change the fact their emulation is very good compared to previous official attempts, but saying it is 100% accurate or more accurate than every homebrew emulators out there, especially those which have been developped for years or have their source to prove how accurate they are, is plain wrong.

The video output is another matter, which is bound to the fact the Wii can output a non interlaced signal and disable filtering, which most PC modern video cards can't, but again, there are absolutely no differences between wii homebrew and VC, unless the emulator you are using don't let you disable the filtering off course. In general, the good thing with homebrew emus is that they come with various video settings you can change, you probably are using the wrong setting when comparing, which, again, makes the test biased.

 

[SoraK05]

When using an emulator, I tend to set the options as close to the original console as possible - same resolution, no filtering, etc. Like with Kega Fusion, I used settings reflecting no filtering, and it still looks more 'filtered' than the virtual console version.
I'm not looking to be bias - I am grateful to see that an emulator such as the virtual console one looks closer, to me, than other emulators have. It is nice to see that the accuracy I wanted from an emulator is at least 'doable', in terms of the virtual console one looking great and the Wii emulator one looking 'filtered', on the same hardware..
It is the first time I've seen an emulator look the way the virtual console one does, so it is nice to see that Nothing beats the original hardware though

On a side note, running a virtual console game in the Dolphin emulator makes it look 'filtered'

I tend to prefer original hardware over emulators just about always, but I must say that for Wii games in particular, Dolphin looks and runs great generally speaking when the internal graphics are upscaled - it doesn't seem to disturb the game as much as upscaling a PSX game for example in the PSX emulator - it looks more natural..

Also, it's great to see Ocarina of Time running perfectly on a GameCube with the Collector's Edition Disc - that full speed and accurate (to original specifications without upscaling anything) emulation of OOT on a GameCube is achievable, in contrast to Cube64 for example which does not necessarily use official documentation or SDK information. The fact that with the appropriate official documentation and the SDK to help, the GameCube can achieve that over homebrew..

 

[Jacobeian]

I wanted from an emulator is at least 'doable', in terms of the virtual console one looking great and the Wii emulator one looking 'filtered', on the same hardware..
It is the first time I've seen an emulator look the way the virtual console one does, so it is nice to see that Nothing beats the original hardware though

Maybe but it's not true, once again, homebrew emulators (at least snes9xgx and genplusgx) does not use filtering in original modes and VC emulators don't do anything special or "magic", this part of Wii video hardware is fully documented and known, just search in the googlecode issue pages for these two emus where it has been discussed extensively, I learned a lot by lurking there.

Anyway, here are screenshots I made with a game I own on both the real console and VC
the first two shots are from VC emulator and genesisplusgx (no particular order so you can't be biased).
Can you make any difference ? Does any look more filtered ?
No, because they aren't...






I've also put some screenshots taken from a real megadrive, it doesn't look that much crisper to me (although more colorful because of the modded RGB output, I only have composite cable on my wii)






It might be different when using a LCD TV with interlaced mode (this game does not seem to be able to switch into interlaced mode on VC by using the Z+A+2 combo trick) but there is no way it would look close to real hardware anyway in this mode, those old consoles output non interlaced video, which is why playing them on modern TVs is hit and miss.

 

[SoraK05]

I have tried taking a video of what I am referring to but it doesn't show so well. I will try take a photo of Sonic the Hedgehog that I was looking at last night, with my laptop on fullscreen with Kega Fusion and on Virtual Console, with both on pause in a decent environment.

About the pictures, it's not so easy to tell, for me at least, unless I see it in action. However, at least from the pictures, based on the third one (zoomed out and can see the TV), out of the two side by side the one on the right looks crisper (can tell easily by the background)..

When I take the photo of Sonic I will upload it.. I'll edit this post for that.. I'll even take a photo of genplusgx of Sonic (minimal filtering options possible i.e. none), with the best quality I can.

BTW, the Mega Drive picture looks quite nice with the cable you have..


Edit:
Like I said, it's not so easy to see in photos, but on the TV and laptop screen side by side, the TV is definitely more crisp and not so blurred.
Here are pictures of VC and Kega Fusion (taken with Fuji camera set to 10MP):
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag140/SoraK05/1KegaOut_zpse9668224.jpg
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag140/SoraK05/1VCOut_zpse5cb10b3.jpg
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag140/SoraK05/2KegaZoomed_zpsa356b167.jpg
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag140/SoraK05/2VCZoomed_zpsa3cecf4d.jpg

Sonic is more of a dark blue in VC than on Kega, and in general Kega looks more blurred. I tried to get a good focus in general.


Thanks for the pictures btw. I think the one on the right looks more crisp and detailed, based on some blurring of pixels in the background when compared, as well as in general. Perhaps it is based on the zoom / focus..

 

[Jacobeian]

About the pictures, it's not so easy to tell, for me at least, unless I see it in action. However, at least from the pictures, based on the third one (zoomed out and can see the TV), out of the two side by side the one on the right looks crisper (can tell easily by the background)..

yeah, actually this one is blurrier but it is probably the photo not being done properly (handshaking, was the last one I think), I can guarantee you do not see any differences on TV screen...
here, I've taken two new shots from VC and homebrew emu where you can hardly tell a difference



and i tell you, it's not easy to tell because they are no differences, you said emulators were filtered where as VC is not, which is wrong, if one of them was filtered, it would be much more obvious

When I take the photo of Sonic I will upload it.. I'll edit this post for that.. I'll even take a photo of genplusgx of Sonic (minimal filtering options possible i.e. none), with the best quality I can.

settings I used

render : original
bilinear filter: off
trap filter: on (setting it off makes somehow the colors more blended, more accurate to how genesis composite output behaves probably but VC very likely leaves this on by default)
border: off (VC emulator does not accurately emulates border color like genplusgx does)

 

[SoraK05]

OK, I put up my pictures.. also, don't want you to double post..

 

[Jacobeian]

OK, I put up my pictures.. also, don't want you to double post..

both does not look like the real console, they are actually both upscaled
anyway, i was not talking about how PC emulators do things, video hardware and screens are not the same so off course the output would look different
I was just saying that both VC and Wii emulators were using the same video hardware in the same way and that they both looked the same, providing you disabled filtering in emulator options

Thanks for the pictures btw. I think the one on the right looks more crisp and detailed, based on some blurring of pixels in the background when compared, as well as in general. Perhaps it is based on the zoom / focus..

you mean in the second set I posted ?

 

[SoraK05]

Yes, in the second set..
I will check out genplusgx and vc again and tell you what I see (perhaps if a photo can show a difference I will take some)..

 

[Jacobeian]

Yes, in the second set..

in the second set, the left one is from VC, the right one from genplusgx (i swapped them compared to first set) ...

 

[SoraK05]

Like I said, it's best seen up front as opposed through a picture / video..

I didn't take a photo, but after checking out genplusgx with original setting, no filters, and even with the trap setting on and off with a hard reset within the emulator, I could see that sonic was a darker blue like with the VC version. The one thing that was easily noticeable though was that text in general was a lot blurrier and less legible than the VC one. This is easily noticeable when doing the cheat at the title screen of holding A, pressing UP,DOWN,LEFT and RIGHT, then pressing START.
The text is much more crisp on VC. Also, for the extra lives counter in the game, the 3 for sonic's lives was cut off at the bottom, where it wasn't for the VC.

Edit:
I was using genplusgx 1.6.0, suspecting no changes in general to video.. I took these photos with that version. I upgraded to 1.7.3 and checked again, and it is pretty much identical.

Text is blurry and more illegible compared to VC - the 'TM' in the SEGA logo on the top right is not complete, as well as the text for entering a level, like "Final Zone" for example - it is distorting the text and not showing it completely.

Text in general is blurry and incomplete. The nature of this blurring is somewhat the filtering I refer to..

Here are pictures:
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag140/SoraK05/1genplusgxlevelselect_zpsab615136.jpg
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag140/SoraK05/1vclevelselect_zps34ec5bae.jpg
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag140/SoraK05/2genplusgxlivescounter_zpsb80f6129.jpg
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag140/SoraK05/2vclivescounter_zpsaa78316a.jpg

The writing of 'Sonic the Hedgehog' in the background of the level select pictures, as well as the background picture in general (although it is not the same pose that sonic is in) looks better on VC than genplusgx..


I didn't take a picture of the 'TM' in the SEGA logo since the nature of this is reflected in the lives counter.
I also didn't take a picture of entering a level since the picture wouldn't have come out right based on some kind of glare from the black background on my TV displayed on the camera..

Also, text is not distorted in Kega Fusion and is legible like the VC one.

I am quite certain based on their official documentation (more importantly, for Wii and arguably the Mega Drive too) and SDK they are doing something slightly different to other emulators..

 

[Jacobeian]

I see what you mean but you are wrong, VC looks actually filtered and genplusgx absolutely not, which is the cause of those distorted or cut letters (those seem to be scaling artefacts), what you probably defined as "blurry"

it is obvious if you look at the fence above the Sonic logo at the bottom, just look how the diagonals look smoothed in the VC version as opposed to genplusgx where you clearly see the pixels => that IS filtering

anyway, I agree it looks better on VC with this setup but it seems to be caused by upscaling issues (?) as it does not happen in original "non interlaced "mode on a CRT , which is the only thing accurate to the real console output, as opposed to the screenshots you posted

it could come from the video modes used: if you are using original mode in genplusgx, I would try to switch to interlaced or progressive as it might not be handled properly by your TV (most of them seem to try to upscale a non interlaced video signal, with more or less bad results)...

PS: you can upload images in your posts as thumbnails, it makes viewing more comfortable

 

[SoraK05]

Not sure how to post the pictures as thumbnails.

I'm using a component cable.

I set the Wii to 576i in the Wii Settings, and set genplusgx to display in 50Hz. My TV still shows '480p' when entering the game, and 576i in the genplusgx menu.. :S
It does not show the corruption as before. Setting the display to 60Hz in the genplusgx options shows the corruption again. Perhaps the 60Hz option in genplusgx is the culprit for the distorted graphics.

I also loaded the VC version in 576i. The VC one shows as 576i on my TV. It looks just about the same, and it may be my imagination but the VC one seems to be slightly smoother. The Trap VI Filter isn't very noticeable, but it's pleasant
I'd be quite happy playing Mega Drive games this way I also checked the sound, and on genplusgx the sound of every ring being collected is not heard, just like VC. Kega Fusion has the sound of every ring collected heard.

Edit:
With the system and clocks set to USA/NTSC, with 60Hz on it looks fine. However, sonic becomes quite choppy, with or without v-sync or Trap VI. I tested this on the Final Zone.

I'd say that VC is smoother overall in terms of FPS..

 

[Ergo]

For those in the USA, Goodwill is a gold mine for old CRT sets and they can be had for chump change--only wish they didn't weigh a half-ton on the 30" and up models

Also: the first several waves of TG16/PCE game were *all* filtered, albeit a crummy bilinear one.

 

[the_randomizer]

Sorry, what was the comparison for? What was the purpose? I'm really confused.

I have several reasons for not wanting to use the VC, despite its now-apparent accuracy (which is irrefutable). With the Wii, they most advanced Snes chip games they released were SA-1, but SuperFX was ignored altogether, and not every game people wanted was released, what makes people think Nintendo won't repeat the same mistake with the Wii U?

 

[Jacobeian]

Not sure how to post the pictures as thumbnails.

I'm using a component cable.

I set the Wii to 576i in the Wii Settings, and set genplusgx to display in 50Hz. My TV still shows '480p' when entering the game, and 576i in the genplusgx menu.. :S
It does not show the corruption as before. Setting the display to 60Hz in the genplusgx options shows the corruption again. Perhaps the 60Hz option in genplusgx is the culprit for the distorted graphics.

yes, because 576i is 50hz, if you set 60hz in the emu, it will try to downscale 576 lines to 480 lines (which is the max for NTSC or PAL60), hence the scaling artefacts

if you are playing a PAL game, you are supposed to play it at 50hz (i.e 576i), I personally leave the option to 50/60hz in genplusgx and it switches automatically depending on the game region, the 60hz option works fine for NTSC games

also, i don't think 50hz progressive (576p) is possible on Wii , only 480p (60hz progressive)

I'd be quite happy playing Mega Drive games this way I also checked the sound, and on genplusgx the sound of every ring being collected is not heard, just like VC. Kega Fusion has the sound of every ring collected heard.

I know the ring sound is stereo, you might want to check your audio setup as it is very likely you are only hearing one of the two stereo channels
I don't have this issue personally, all ring sounds can be heard in those emus

With the system and clocks set to USA/NTSC, with 60Hz on it looks fine. However, sonic becomes quite choppy, with or without v-sync or Trap VI. I tested this on the Final Zone.

I'd say that VC is smoother overall in terms of FPS..

honestly, I do not see any differences in term of FPS, both are quite smooth in my opinion and 60hz faster than 50hz
I'd say if by choppy you mean something really noticeable, it's probably a setup mistake on your side again, otherwise it's probably just an impression
Indeed, considering any genesis emu has probably no problem running fullspeed on Wii and therefore do not miss any frame, i doubt there isn't that much difference in term of FPS, the limit being the video hardware refresh rate at the end, which is the same for both

 

[SoraK05]

The issue with the framerate was from having 'surround sound' set in the Wii's settings. When I set it to stereo, USA NTSC ran extremely smooth and quick.

BTW, I have a USB Gecko - I took some screenshots from Sonic the Hedgehog - I tried other games but I think wiird didn't like those games/channels for some reason and would take distorted pictures. It also doesn't work with homebrew so I can't take pictures of genplusgx.

I'm still convinced that although genplusgx and emulators in general are more compatible with games, what VC does it does quite well..

 

[Lumstar]

The majority of Mega Drive games do NOT use interlaced video. Most were developed for 320x224 @ 60hz.

Only specific PAL games had programming to take advantage of 320x240 @ 50hz, all others get forced by hardware into slower speed and/or black bars.

 

[the_randomizer]

I still don't see how the VC is "more" accurate than Genesis Plus GX or Snes9x Next.