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Another School Shooting

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spotanjo3

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Dont say that. :) Part of it has to do with US hegemonial culture, in my (poetic.. ;) ) mind.

So as the US removes itself militarily from the world stage (this is not me suggesting, that it should, its what the US curretly does, slowly at the current time), the society may change a little (significance of weapons), and the number might decline. :)

This is lateral thinking on my part (not entirely sound logic :) ). Could happen though. :)

Culturally - parts of the US are basically "Sparta" for the world stage.
Its pax americana, that leads to this kind of symbolism (weapons still are culturally important to you) - I think.

h**ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufCxLjBi97M&feature=youtu.be&t=195
edit: Watch the video a little until you hear the pastors speech and the cadets commentary. Dub track is german, sadly - but you can still make out the english original lines. This is a culture thats still very much part of the american ethos.

I understand your point. I don't want to say that but it is the truthful. It is not getting better anyway. Even in 1500 or less before we born.. Same hatred and killing existence. Nothing's new. Right now, it is much worse than ever before. :(

you forget mohammeds (sorry for misspellings) return after Jesus (for those who believe it's kind of a difference).
and that for some it's elliah that will return...
i don't believe in any of these fairytales, but still, you should at least consider there's more than one religion here.

I respect your belief. No problem. ;)
 

HamBone41801

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Really my friend, your question has already been answered in this very thread. SG854 sums it up very nicely and to the point. I could not have stated it any better. FROM the link provided BY SG854 :

"Among the 25 most-cited school shooters since Columbine, 75 percent were reared in broken homes. Psychologist Dr. Peter Langman, a pre-eminent expert on school shooters, found that most came from incredibly broken homes of not just divorce and separation, but also infidelity, substance abuse, criminal behavior, domestic violence, and child abuse."

AND

" After the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre, scholar Brad Wilcox called attention to the work of criminologists Michael Gottfredson and Travis Hirschi, which found the absence of fathers to be one of the “most powerful predictors of crimes .” He explained that fathers are role models for their sons who maintain authority and discipline, thereby helping them develop self-control and empathy toward others, key character traits lacking in violent youth."

Also


" The late rapper Tupac Shakur said, “I know for a fact that had I had a father, I’d have some discipline. I’d have more confidence. Your mother can’t calm you down the way a man can. You need a man to teach you how to be a man.” Shakur, who was murdered in 1996, started hanging out with gangs because he wanted to belong to a family."

There is much more in SGs article.

you've given me data on broken homes, not data on why kids need fathers (no, a quote from tupac doesn't count. especially when that quote says something as dumb as "You need a man to teach you how to be a man." you wanna know what makes a man? being a goddamn decent human being, and last time I checked, you don't need a dick for that). what about kids with two moms? are they more likely to become killers than kids with hetero parents? kids need to be raised right. I have nothing wrong with that statement. What I DO have an Issue with is this narative you've been trying to create that only one type of family can do so.
 

RandomUser

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Like the ID-tagged weapons from Metal Gear Solid? It would be impossible to retrofit all what? 500 million guns (a rough estimate) that already exist here.
You have a point there. Perhaps maybe changing the bullet sizing standard would be needed, not sure if it is possible. So that all new shells being sold will not fit existing guns and thereby rendering most existing guns obsolete. However that may not be practical either, because some people can either import them in or make their own bullets.
I don't think guns are going away anytime soon, because the state government gets annual revenue for hunting license and what not.

Okay...Britain doesn't get any school shootings because they literally banned guns. Its the dumbest thing any country can do. Why? Because then the general public can't protect themselves from criminals so they'll die. More deaths will happen in America if we ban guns then if we don't. We should instead completely lock down our country. We need retina scans, we need everybody who buys a gun to be chipped...it will all work out in the end.
Subtle Demise, pointed out that would be impracticable as my idea is almost similar.
 

Superbronx

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Yes, but also partly wrong imho - because mass shooters may be narcissistic, but first and foremost they are social outcast loners, who were refused to matter at all in their social cicles. This then turns into grief and anger. If you disciplin them on top of that, guess what...

So instead of bringing the narcissism down, how about preventing the other side?

Also disciplining children is something that may be needed for them to think about action/reaction of their behavior, but disciplining - never produces empathy for the victim.

(Show me that study.)

Look at the result of what boarding schools produced as human material. conscienceless, self centered alphas, that have learned only one thing in life, and that is - that to go forward, they have to beat everything and every one in their way - in a very real sense.

Reason. Punishment first and foremost produces anger. Anger then gets channeled by those institutions into action in a competitive environment, winner gets rewarded, then very quickly the only thing you are reproducing are sadists, and broken people.

To produce empathy, you actually need social learning experiences. So mixed schools, engagement, people recognizing, that different characters can bring in a different valueset. Thats how you produce leaders. :) The running joke is, that boarding schools usually are where the dentists son meets the lawyers daughter - but thats about all. ;) If you want to do your child a favor, dont just discipline them, teach them how to be a liberal thinker and interact with different sets of people. Even if he/she later might end up at Yale, that will benefit them more, than what discipline might have given them.

Usually a parent thats quite into the discipline game, isnt bright enough to really gage different social interactions. Their mindset usually centers around "in public smile more, and be more polite.. " ;)

That said, dont let your child end up a narcissistic brat either. Please.. ;)

And yes, some mass shooters might be narcissistic, some might not, what they all have in common though... is not first and foremost a lacking sense of values... Thats not what makes you develop the rage. :)
Your whole theory revolves around discipline causing the child's anger but actually the exact opposite is true. Unless the father in question is abusive. Proper discipline, when tempered with love and guidance produces very effective results. A paper flimsy excuse for a father who only attempts to beat his lessons into a child, may very well produce the anger you mention but a REAL dad has many things to offer his son. Only a few of which are Instruction, guidance, patience, love, kindness helping them to develop a sense of self worth and yes discipline.
With those ingredients in balance a child will be able to control their anger and also will not fall prey to bullying. When and if they are subjected to bullying, they have that solid family foundation to rely on. My own son had his run in with bullies but because his mother and I were there he was able to bounce back nicely and move beyond it.
@HamBone41801, when you said all you need is to be a decent human being, the methods I have described to you are overwhelmingly effective in producing that result.
 
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SG854

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Yes, but also partly wrong imho - because mass shooters may be narcissistic, but first and foremost they are social outcast loners, who were refused to matter at all in their social cicles. This then turns into grief and anger. If you disciplin them on top of that, guess what...

So instead of bringing the narcissism down, how about preventing the other side?

Also disciplining children is something that may be needed for them to think about action/reaction of their behavior, but disciplining - never produces empathy for the victim.

(Show me that study.)

Look at the result of what boarding schools produced as human material. conscienceless, self centered alphas, that have learned only one thing in life, and that is - that to go forward, they have to beat everything and every one in their way - in a very real sense.

Reason. Punishment first and foremost produces anger. Anger then gets channeled by those institutions into action in a competitive environment, winner gets rewarded, then very quickly the only thing you are reproducing are sadists, and broken people.

To produce empathy, you actually need social learning experiences. So mixed schools, engagement, people recognizing, that different characters can bring in a different valueset. Thats how you produce leaders. :) The running joke is, that boarding schools usually are where the dentists son meets the lawyers daughter - but thats about all. ;) If you want to do your child a favor, dont just discipline them, teach them how to be a liberal thinker and interact with different sets of people. Even if he/she later might end up at Yale, that will benefit them more, than what discipline might have given them.

Usually a parent thats quite into the discipline game, isnt bright enough to really gage different social interactions. Their mindset usually centers around "in public smile more, and be more polite.. " ;)

That said, dont let your child end up a narcissistic brat either. Please.. ;)

And yes, some mass shooters might be narcissistic, some might not, what they all have in common though... is not first and foremost a lacking sense of values... Thats not what makes you develop the rage. :)
Fatherless kids has lower educational attainment, poorer social outcomes (likely the cause of outcast you are talking about), higher risks of depression and substance abuse, more likely to be poor, and be criminal.


So i’ll give you an example of learning empathy. Fathers are more likely to engage in ruff and tumble play then mothers are. His ruff and tumble play teaches cooperation skills, to better work with people, to think of their actions towards others by enforcing rules and playing fair eg. don’t cheat or hurt others to get what you want, and to develop social skills. Animals also engage in this type of play for the same reasons for learning to cooperate and hunt together. Kids also learn empathy from mothers but in a different way from a father. And having two people to dedicate attention to a kid is always better then one.



Dads push kids to take risks, moms more likely to protect the kid from harm, both beneficial in different ways, and social engagement can sometimes be risky.

https://www.childandfamilyblog.com/child-development/social-skills-friends-fathers/
 
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cots

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Traditional family values taught by proper parenting by both a loving Mother and Father are rare these days. I suggest if you grew up in such a situation you should be thankful, but not everyone does. My mother died when I was under the age of 10 and I know a lot of parents that see their own kids as distractions, put an iphone in front of their face and leave the responsibility of teaching them right vs wrong up to a bunch of liberal lunatics who not only taught them this is the proper way to parent, but also teach at the kids local schools.

I suppose if you had two mothers or two fathers and one had more traditional feminist attributes and one more traditional masculine attributes that might work, but I highly doubt it. Society is taking a shit-dive and this problem will only get worse (with or without guns).
 
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Superbronx

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Traditional family values taught by proper parenting by both a loving Mother and Father are rare these days. I suggest if you grew up in such a situation you should be thankful, but not everyone does. My mother died when I was under the age of 10 and I know a lot of parents that see their own kids as distractions, put an iphone in front of their face and leave the responsibility of teaching them right vs wrong up to a bunch of liberal lunatics who not only taught them this is the proper way to parent, but also teach at the kids local schools.

I suppose if you had two mothers or two fathers and one had more traditional feminist attributes and one more traditional masculine attributes that might work, but I highly doubt it. Society is taking a shit-dive and this problem will only get worse (with or without guns).
You bring up an excellent point. A significant number of parents are too busy trying to enlarge their friends list on fb to bother with raising their children. It's an addiction almost as bad as those mothers you hear about who are addicted to meth and drive all the way across the country because they met someone on social media who is willing to hook them up with their next fix in exchange for intimacy with her 5 year old daughter :sad:
 

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You bring up an excellent point. A significant number of parents are too busy trying to enlarge their friends list on fb to bother with raising their children. It's an addiction almost as bad as those mothers you hear about who are addicted to meth and drive all the way across the country because they met someone on social media who is willing to hook them up with their next fix in exchange for intimacy with her 5 year old daughter :sad:

That's sort of extreme. Neglecting a child is bad enough.

I deal a lot with people who are basically failing in life and I see a lot of common traits among them such as lack of education, abuse, neglect, one or no parents or parents that can't figure out their own gender, using drugs or selling themselves to make a living. It's sad.
 
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Superbronx

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That's rough, I don't think I would be cut out for that line of work. :(
I would feel so helpless if I couldn't do anything to help them. Thank you for the work you do. It's a blessing knowing there are people in this world who try to make a difference.
 

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So i’ll give you an example of learning empathy. Fathers are more likely to engage in ruff and tumble play then mothers are. His ruff and tumble play teaches cooperation skills, to better work with people, to think of their actions towards others by enforcing rules and playing fair eg. don’t cheat or hurt others to get what you want, and to develop social skills. Animals also engage in this type of play for the same reasons for learning to cooperate and hunt together. Kids also learn empathy from mothers but in a different way from a father. And having two people to dedicate attention to a kid is always better then one.
Explanation doesnt sound counter intuitive. You notice, that the word "disciplining" them (which I dont disagree with on some level :)) is missing from it.. ;)

Also, depends on the kind of person the father is in this case. Animals usually engage in this type of play with fellow 'same age' peers, which kind of - was may way of describing learning social skills and empathy (empathy usually develops, if something goes wrong with "the other" in your groups. And the more diversified those groups are (not in a SJW sense of "lets keep tabs"), the more it also includes a sense of different social backgrounds).

Also - listing real studies would be better than referring to examples in the animal kingdom.. ;) But then I didn't do that either.

Also I agree, that a child needs access to both of their parents to learn a varied set of social skills, ideally. :)
 
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notimp

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Your whole theory revolves around discipline causing the child's anger but actually the exact opposite is true. Unless the father in question is abusive.
Agree partly - first the difference is, that the person disciplined has to be able to conceptualize a connection between their action and the result, and they have to see some kind of ('so unfair... ;)') logic in it. If discipline comes in erratically, or very regularly - with 'expected' results (on the parts of the behavior of the child), outcome will be very different from a learning effect.

Just make sure, that you dont fall over the edge into abusive, and we are good. :) Also a child thats also granted some space to learn on its own - also has plenty of learning opportunities, outside their own home. If it becomes troubled in regards to something, catch that - have a basis, where you both can talk things out. But dont try to overly imprint values, be a rolemodel instead.

Also children need to get away with some stuff. Otherwise they would start to think that life is fair.. ;) Just slap their heads a little once in a while (Imho) when they deserve it. And dont let them get away with stuff thats disrespectful to the core of other human beings.

But its really a balance. So be more X Y Z, isn't correct in the absolute sense.

Anna Freud (daughter of Sigmund and famous early psychoanalist) messed up quite a few children in her life, so - again, keep it light on the imprinting values stuff.. ;)

Also I don't have children. So dont take advice from me. ;)
I'm just empathic, and sometimes filled with anger (even rage) - so lets say - I know the extremes. ;)

Also, I don't think that americans are 144 times worse parents than canadiens, and I dont think the high school shootings number is a statistical fluke, so it must be societal in some sence (access to weapons, glorification of violence, that stuff).
 
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SG854

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Explanation doesnt sound counter intuitive. You notice, that the word "disciplining" them (which I dont disagree with on some level :)) is missing from it.. ;)

Also, depends on the kind of person the father is in this case. Animals usually engage in this type of play with fellow 'same age' peers, which kind of - was may way of describing learning social skills and empathy.

Also - listing real studies would be better than referring to examples in the animal kingdom.. ;) But then I didn't do that either.

Also I agree, that a child needs access to both of their parents to learn a varied set of social skills, ideally. :)
It depends on what study you are looking at. But there is some that looks at discipline. Like when you look into why ADHD develops some of it has to do with how differently people enforce rules and boundaries.

Kids hanging out in ruff and tumble is a good way to develop social skills. But if they are bad at socializing to begin with they need guidance, from a Mother and/or Father.

It of course depends on what kind of Father or Mother they are. You can be sure that there is some kids that have 2 parents at the house, but a Dad that’s not at all attentive kids won’t get the same positive benefits. So often times they say more likely since it’s not every case.


Looking into the Animal Kingdom and making comparisons is something researchers do all the time since we all evolved from a common ancestor.
 
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WD_GASTER2

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Majority of School shooters comes from Fatherless Broken homes. Having a father absent is the greatest predictor of crime.

Kids learn a lot of self control and empathy from their father. Fathers are more likely to be stricter at discipline with their kids and punish them if they step out of line.

Empathizing too much with someone doesn’t create empathetic kids, it creates narcissistic kids with the focus mostly on them. Disciplining them makes them think about their actions towards other people. And tells them hurting others is bad.


Overall who’s more likely to be stricter and the kid to be more afraid of when they do bad, the Father or Mother?
As someone who was raised by a single mother i have to heavily disagree. You can be scumbag even when you have a father in your life and much more so if your father is a bad influence. At the end of the day people choose who they want to be. As somebody who came from a poverty stricken family in a poor neighborhood and have worked my butt off to have a decent paying salary job after studying to the bone for a job i can tell you a big part of who you end up being is yourself

also:
"Kids learn a lot of self control and empathy from their father. Fathers are more likely to be stricter at discipline with their kids and punish them if they step out of line." you obviously do not have a latina mother.
 
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notimp

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As someone who was raised by a single mother i have to heavily disagree. You can be scumbag even when you have a father in your life and much more so if your father is a bad influence. At the end of the day people choose who they want to be. As somebody who came from a poverty stricken family in a poor neighborhood and have worked my butt off to have a decent paying salary job after studying to the bone for a job i can tell you a big part of who you end up being is yourself
Also agree.

And then there is this stance I came by a few days ago and found oddly joyful. :)

"I differenciate four kinds. There are bright, hardworking/diligent, dumb and lazy officers. Most often two characteristics apply. There are the ones who are smart and hardworking/diligent, they have to end up in the generals staff. The next ones are dumb and lazy; they make up 90% of every army and are usefull for routine jobs. But whoever is lazy and bright, is qualified for the highest leadership positions, because they bring with them the mental clearness and strength of nerve for really difficult decisions. Be on your guard though for those who are dumb and hardworking/diligent, you cant lay any responsibility on them, they will always produce harm."
(Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord (German Anti Nazi resistance within the army leadership :) ))

I usually dont quote millitary "wisdoms", but this at least gives you an insight, that its the mixture of character traits, that makes a human being, and that "it takes all kinds.." ;)

Original quote in german:
„Ich unterscheide vier Arten. Es gibt kluge, fleißige, dumme und faule Offiziere. Meist treffen zwei Eigenschaften zusammen. Die einen sind klug und fleißig, sie müssen in den Generalstab. Die Nächsten sind dumm und faul; sie machen in jeder Armee neunzig Prozent aus und sind für Routineaufgaben geeignet. Wer klug ist und gleichzeitig faul, qualifiziert sich für die höchsten Führungsaufgaben, denn er bringt die geistige Klarheit und die Nervenstärke für schwere Entscheidungen mit. Hüten muss man sich vor dem, der dumm und fleißig ist; dem darf man keine Verantwortung übertragen, denn er wird immer nur Unheil anrichten.“ (Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord)
 
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SG854

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As someone who was raised by a single mother i have to heavily disagree. You can be scumbag even when you have a father in your life and much more so if your father is a bad influence. At the end of the day people choose who they want to be. As somebody who came from a poverty stricken family in a poor neighborhood and have worked my butt off to have a decent paying salary job after studying to the bone for a job i can tell you a big part of who you end up being is yourself

also:
"Kids learn a lot of self control and empathy from their father. Fathers are more likely to be stricter at discipline with their kids and punish them if they step out of line." you obviously do not have a latina mother.
You have to be careful with anecdotal experiences. And I do know a few people who are afraid of being disciplined by their mothers.

I am Latino myself. And I know all about the hitting with the spoon or a cinto or chanclas.
 

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"cinto".... latino....
did you mean portuguese?
:rolleyes:
its "cincho" also getting hit with a spoon aint even a stereotype.
I know that Anecdotal evidence is usually no good but you seemed to be talking in absolutes in your statement(which is not a good thing to do either) which is why i pitched in.
 
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spinal_cord

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Okay...Britain doesn't get any school shootings because they literally banned guns. Its the dumbest thing any country can do. Why? Because then the general public can't protect themselves from criminals so they'll die. More deaths will happen in America if we ban guns then if we don't. We should instead completely lock down our country. We need retina scans, we need everybody who buys a gun to be chipped...it will all work out in the end.

The problem with that way of thinking is that it is wrong. We haven't had a major shooting in this country since 1996. BECAUSE it's more difficult for most to get guns. Here's the other logic fail - criminals will still have guns so why bother? - You see, if owning these guns is illegal, those who are caught with them WILL BE ARRESTED AND THE GUNS REMOVED. Or do you all think that police will turn a blind eye and simple LET the criminals keep their guns?
Simple logic, if you ban guns, you will have less shootings simply because there will be less guns. That's how math works.
Look at every country that has banned guns, are they all overrun by criminal gun toting gangs? No, no they aren't.

The problem with all arguments on this subject are as follows, America does not understand the rest of the worlds point of view. You can not grasp that having less guns is safer for everyone from school children involved in shootings to people getting accidentally shot by their toddlers.
On the other had, the rest of the world simply can not grasp the idea that a population can love owning a gun more than the safety of their own children.

This discussion will keep happening because America will keep having mass shootings. Before anyone says "gun control isn't the problem, -something else- is the problem", if there is indeed a different problem, why would would want that problem to own a gun and allow them to shoot someone?
 

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WILL BE ARRESTED AND THE GUNS REMOVED.
The problem is that this sentence gives cold sweats and Triggers a good chunk of people out there thus getting rid of even the slightest chance of honest discussion. Usually said people only recommend that everybody should get a gun (lol) so these type of incidents decrease.

I personally believe in responsible ownership( I am not a gun owner but sensible self defense discussion would be interesting to hear for once), but that would entail people not owning something that is used in a warzone or battlefield.
 
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SG854

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"cinto".... latino....
did you mean portuguese?
:rolleyes:
its "cincho" also getting hit with a spoon aint even a stereotype.
I know that Anecdotal evidence is usually no good but you seemed to be talking in absolutes in your statement(which is not a good thing to do either) which is why i pitched in.
My family is Mexican. I’ve always spelled it cinto like how they spell it in this video or like here where you can buy one. Or like how they spell it in this book about Mexicans. I don’t know, i’ve always spelt it that way.


I wasn’t making absolutes though. That’s why I said more likely. I carefully worded it like that to try to avoid a comment such as yours from happening.
 

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