Hacking Android OS on Switch Ultimate Discussion Thread

[guily6669]

2 GHz+ is just marketing fluff when it can't hold that speed for more than a few minutes because of passive cooling. They will throttle.

Offcourse, but they will never throttle to the Switch level at like 1\3rd of the normal clocks...

And you can always mod your phone\tablet adding more copper for even more stable performance.

so we can dont have to buy another device for android tv for example.

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The shield which uses the same chip and runs android can run game cube games at around 1080p. but thats a commercial emulator, we probably wont get the same optimization for free and without nvidia involved.

Well the problem is that Nvidia Shield is way more powerful than Switch because of its way higher clocks.

In fact all I can see on Switch is that most games run far worse than on a older Xbox360, the GPU power all goes to shit with the CPU bottlenecking the entire system and making huge FPS drop + stuttering.

You can specially see that on games like MXGP it's nowhere near to run as stable even docked as that game running on my old X360.

The only way we could fix it is by modding the Switch with more cooling, better thermal paste+thermal pads and maybe a fully custom CNC copper cooler and OC the hell out of it, but that might also break a lot of games, sometimes in consoles the OC just make games to run unstable, faster or with other problems, but would do the trick 4 Android gaming.

 

[Techjunky90]

not a big difference in required resource, gamecube was actually faster but less exotic. ps2 emulation requires more work, and they would probably need low level access. chances are nobody will do it perfectly for free.

You keep making idiotic responses that have absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I specifically said ps2, yet you keep spouting off about GameCube. Do this thread a favor and stop responding.

 

[Deleted User]

You keep making idiotic responses that have absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I specifically said ps2, yet you keep spouting off about GameCube. Do this thread a favor and stop responding.

............................ well.......
He's comparing. PS2 and gamecube were part of the same console generation. So I think he's trying to say that because the switch can run gamecube games, it should be able to run ps2, because the gamecube is more powerful than ps2. And also.... technically... andriod is a modified linux. So you could likely remove a lot of the bloatware or resource hogs from it............................
I'm going to go now. (before the flames burn too hot)

 

[kevin corms]

You keep making idiotic responses that have absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I specifically said ps2, yet you keep spouting off about GameCube. Do this thread a favor and stop responding.

Oh get over yourself, you don’t even have an argument other than “you’re an idiot”. I bet you haven’t coded a single program in your life, while I’m actually a developer. Not to mention there is a generic android ps2 emulator that works on the shield as is already, just isn’t optimized enough for good performance (60 FPS games run around 40 FPS). If someone made an emulator specifically for tegra and optimized it enough it would work. Do you always try to tell people to shut up when they debate you?

 

[lordelan]

you can find the invite for it in the pins in the #hacking channel on the RetroNX server

Got it. Thanks.

 

[Deleted User]

You are talking GameCube emulation, I'm talking ps2 emulation.

Damon Ps2 runs just fine on the shield but it's not free of charge

 

[kevin corms]

Damon Ps2 runs just fine on the shield but it's not free of charge

Dont bother, you are talking to a person who just gets hostile when they are called out.

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Offcourse, but they will never throttle to the Switch level at like 1\3rd of the normal clocks...

And you can always mod your phone\tablet adding more copper for even more stable performance.

Well the problem is that Nvidia Shield is way more powerful than Switch because of its way higher clocks.

In fact all I can see on Switch is that most games run far worse than on a older Xbox360, the GPU power all goes to shit with the CPU bottlenecking the entire system and making huge FPS drop + stuttering.

You can specially see that on games like MXGP it's nowhere near to run as stable even docked as that game running on my old X360.

The only way we could fix it is by modding the Switch with more cooling, better thermal paste+thermal pads and maybe a fully custom CNC copper cooler and OC the hell out of it, but that might also break a lot of games, sometimes in consoles the OC just make games to run unstable, faster or with other problems, but would do the trick 4 Android gaming.

Or optimization, Im not saying someone will do it since it wont be easy, but it could be done. And the shield isnt way more powerful than the switch, even with higher clocks. Remember the shield doesnt keep its clocks high when you start actually pushing it. People have actually tested that while stressed and docked the shield and switch run at the same clocks. You also have to remember its a soc, you can push the cpu higher but then the gpu must throttle... nvidia clocks the cpu much higher and the gpu lower to emulate gamecube games... someone ambitious (or more likely a team) could do the same with the switch.

 

[guily6669]

I remember seeing the Nvidia Shield TV throttling, but I don't think it will ever go to Switch clocks on any game, it's cooler also seems close to twice bigger than the one on the Switch and since its also a home console only we can easily put a bigger cooler or even cut the case and go crazy and we can just root it and OC it (I have no idea but at least on some devices we can, never searched OC for NvShield TV), it also isnt battery powered so it doesnt matter how much it can consume unless it gets too close to the full power supply limit or VRMs or other components inside that it might have.


Still about PS2 I think it will be very hard... I even had a hard time like in 2013 playing in my PC with a I7 2600K and my old GTX570 with huge OC that up it to around 1.8Tflops...

I know the emulator improved a lot, but I just never bothered trying any more recent version and I had all the modded needed files to run better and shit like that.

In fact GT4 was running with very nice graphics and good speed, but there was a track at night where some parts sadly just went to 1 FPS, maybe they have already fixed it by now, I have no clue.


Also even Sony seems to want to make PS5 backward compatible with all consoles and according to the rumors maybe they are even planning to actually have PS2 CPU cores.

And they also seem to be registering a new backward compatibility patent.

Sony registering a patent having to do with backwards compatibility. Apparently, this patent discuses a more accurate method for achieving backwards compatibility by deceiving software written for older systems that it’s running on the original CPU. According to Sony’s patent, this method can eliminate synchronisation errors which may lead to data being written over prematurely and other side effects while emulating an older system on newer hardware. Other than this, it’s also been revealed that the PlayStation 5 could have helper CPUs like the PS2’s Emotion Engine as they might be too difficult to emulate through software.

Maybe someone could later rip and port Sony emulation method for even better performance??

 

[coppertj]

This is the switches version of "but can it run doom" what's prob gonna happen is someone's gonna port the basic boot structure and packages but it'll be lacking in terms of drivers to utilize tegra at first and probably for a long time. That is if a team/individual decides to port. We have Linux and we have in home streaming, count your current chickens because the other may not hatch. In other words, there's a lot of good features already, some that can emulate the android os experience if you really wanted.

I'd like to see it happen either way (I have a problem booting Linux on my switch so idk if I can guarantee id be able to test it but...) to anyone working on it don't get discouraged by people saying "we don't need this, why would you do this" it's a programming challenges and people love challenges. I wish whoever luck if they are making head way towards it.

 

[kevin corms]

I remember seeing the Nvidia Shield TV throttling, but I don't think it will ever go to Switch clocks on any game, it's cooler also seems close to twice bigger than the one on the Switch and since its also a home console only we can easily put a bigger cooler or even cut the case and go crazy and we can just root it and OC it (I have no idea but at least on some devices we can, never searched OC for NvShield TV), it also isnt battery powered so it doesnt matter how much it can consume unless it gets too close to the full power supply limit or VRMs or other components inside that it might have.


Still about PS2 I think it will be very hard... I even had a hard time like in 2013 playing in my PC with a I7 2600K and my old GTX570 with huge OC that up it to around 1.8Tflops...

I know the emulator improved a lot, but I just never bothered trying any more recent version and I had all the modded needed files to run better and shit like that.

In fact GT4 was running with very nice graphics and good speed, but there was a track at night where some parts sadly just went to 1 FPS, maybe they have already fixed it by now, I have no clue.


Also even Sony seems to want to make PS5 backward compatible with all consoles and according to the rumors maybe they are even planning to actually have PS2 CPU cores.

And they also seem to be registering a new backward compatibility patent.

Sony registering a patent having to do with backwards compatibility. Apparently, this patent discuses a more accurate method for achieving backwards compatibility by deceiving software written for older systems that it’s running on the original CPU. According to Sony’s patent, this method can eliminate synchronisation errors which may lead to data being written over prematurely and other side effects while emulating an older system on newer hardware. Other than this, it’s also been revealed that the PlayStation 5 could have helper CPUs like the PS2’s Emotion Engine as they might be too difficult to emulate through software.

Maybe someone could later rip and port Sony emulation method for even better performance??

Im saying its quite possible, but dont hold your breath since it wont be easy. Even the ps4 with its weak jaguar cores can emulate the ps2 perfectly, it’s just a matter of optimization. Hell look at what they were able to do to get xbox 360 games working on Xbox one, but I doubt anyone will go to that trouble to get retro games working on switch. As for pc emulation of ps2 games, Pcsx2 is very understaffed, it’s cool that it works at all but it could be much much better with more manpower. Look at how the ps2 works and how hard it is to sync everything up when emulating it.

 

[guily6669]

I wish Sony had done the same on the PS4 like M$... Anyway I would kill to play GT4 on the Switch , however I don't have any faith we will ever have a full speed PS2 emulator running on it .

 

[bylaws]

It will probably happen this month

 

[LightyKD]

If this is true, this is awesome. I've been looking into getting a decent Android tablet and being able to boot into Android on my Switch would save me a bit of cash. Bonus if the joycons work in Android!

If that's true, the Switch instantly becomes my cable box and game console in one! Keeping my fingers crossed!

 

[bylaws]

Ita not exactly true, i think natehax misunderstood that having l4t ubuntu running meant android also was. I have only just started working on android keep in mind its just not booting yet though.

 

[LightyKD]

Ita not exactly true, i think natehax misunderstood that having l4t ubuntu running meant android also was. I have only just started working on android keep in mind its just not booting yet though.

If you don't mind my asking, standard Android or " AndroidTV OS" ?

 

[bylaws]

If you don't mind my asking, standard Android or " AndroidTV OS" ?

android TV, but they are easy to switch between

 

[LightyKD]

android TV, but they are easy to switch between

Yeeessssss! YOU are the reason while I'll be modding my Switch soon. A very big THANK YOU!

 

[smf]

If someone made an emulator specifically for tegra and optimized it enough it would work.

That is very difficult to prove. The PlayStation 2 is architecturally way more complex than the gamecube & there are far fewer shortcuts you can take.

It's certainly untrue to suggest you can repeatedly optimise every piece of code until it's fast enough no matter how fast the target platform is. Like you can't keep compressing a file and making it smaller forever.

Im saying its quite possible, but dont hold your breath since it wont be easy. Even the ps4 with its weak jaguar cores can emulate the ps2 perfectly, it’s just a matter of optimization.

The ps4 is a number of times faster than switch. The compatibility of the ps2 emulator on the ps4 is dreadful.

Hell look at what they were able to do to get xbox 360 games working on Xbox one,

The 360 is running Windows, it's just a different CPU. It's a relatively slow Power PC but in many ways it works similar to X64. Doesn't it just download a ported version of the game? (probably all that is required is loading the solution up in visual studio and targeting the xbox one and hitting build).

The architecture of the PS2 & PS3 don't lend themselves to just recompiling software. If the game uses an off the shelf engine that has a PC port then moving it across is easier as technically you're just porting the PC version of the game. Once the engine is ported to the Switch then you can get a lot of mileage out of it, because it will help with porting every game using that engine. But for games that have their own engine, then you're looking at porting one game at a time.

Xbox 360 & Xbox One both use Direct X.

but I doubt anyone will go to that trouble to get retro games working on switch.

Companies are going to the trouble, plenty of retro games are being ported. It's just harder because nothing else runs the same OS as the Switch on similarish hardware.

As for pc emulation of ps2 games, Pcsx2 is very understaffed, it’s cool that it works at all but it could be much much better with more manpower. Look at how the ps2 works and how hard it is to sync everything up when emulating it.

There are diminishing returns. What is more likely to happen is that as PC's get quicker, they'll make it slower and more compatible.

 

[kevin corms]

That is very difficult to prove. The PlayStation 2 is architecturally way more complex than the gamecube & there are far fewer shortcuts you can take.

It's certainly untrue to suggest you can repeatedly optimise every piece of code until it's fast enough no matter how fast the target platform is. Like you can't keep compressing a file and making it smaller forever.



The ps4 is a number of times faster than switch. The compatibility of the ps2 emulator on the ps4 is dreadful.



The 360 is running Windows, it's just a different CPU. It's a relatively slow Power PC but in many ways it works similar to X64. Doesn't it just download a ported version of the game? (probably all that is required is loading the solution up in visual studio and targeting the xbox one and hitting build).

The architecture of the PS2 & PS3 don't lend themselves to just recompiling software. If the game uses an off the shelf engine that has a PC port then moving it across is easier as technically you're just porting the PC version of the game. Once the engine is ported to the Switch then you can get a lot of mileage out of it, because it will help with porting every game using that engine. But for games that have their own engine, then you're looking at porting one game at a time.

Xbox 360 & Xbox One both use Direct X.



Companies are going to the trouble, plenty of retro games are being ported. It's just harder because nothing else runs the same OS as the Switch on similarish hardware.



There are diminishing returns. What is more likely to happen is that as PC's get quicker, they'll make it slower and more compatible.

How are you coming to your conclusions exactly? The ps4 has a much more powerful gpu, but cpu wise it’s actually comparable. The 360 isn’t running windows, and it’s not easy for them to just recompile the code the way they do. And yes they can optimize a ps2 emulator quite a lot, it’s nothing like compressing a file... I don’t even get why you are arguing when the shield tv can run ps2 games on a generic android emulator? Under load a docked switch and a shield tv run the same clock speeds.

All that being said, it’s a big task to get ps2 games running properly so don’t hold your breath.

 

[smf]

but cpu wise it’s actually comparable.

Who told you that? PS4 cores are clocked higher and are faster per clock than the switch cpu. It's not even close. Switch is closer to PS3.

The 360 isn’t running windows, and it’s not easy for them to just recompile the code the way they do.

Yes it is, xbox 360 uses Direct X 9 and Windows APIs.

And yes they can optimize a ps2 emulator quite a lot, it’s nothing like compressing a file...

Ok, I get you don't understand analogies. There is quite a bit in common with repeatedly optimising code and repeatedly compressing data.

Please tell me exactly how you would optimise a ps2 emulator "quite a lot". There are multiple chips with tight communication, there is no magic way you can optimise that. Games that don't rely on it are easier, but a ps2 emulator that only runs a handful of the titles is pointless.

I don’t even get why you are arguing when the shield tv can run ps2 games on a generic android emulator? Under load a docked switch and a shield tv run the same clock speeds.

Didn't you say it wasn't full speed? Speed is a fundamental requirement, otherwise anything turing complete with enough storage can emulate a ps2.

All that being said, it’s a big task to get ps2 games running properly so don’t hold your breath.

Right, because the more accurate you make the ps2 emulation, the slower it gets.