Hacking 3DS MITM Attack?

[robo989]

Well, if we all think like that we will never get anywhere
But yeah, it does look like a hard task, but it's all for fun, so even if I don't get anywhere with this, I did have a good time trying

It's not about "if we all think like this".

That's just a misused expression by ignorant optimistic people who never get anywhere. The term is appropriate if what you're trying to do is feasible, as in realistically possible. For example, it may be appropriate for someone learning a skill like soldering who at first finds it difficult, or learning to play a guitar. The point being that those skills have set paths where others have been before and are known to be possible.

Sure there has been things in the past throughout history where people thought something wasn't possible where it later turned out that it was, but even those made use of a predefined understanding of the subject at hand and had sound theoretical basis, like the concept of flight for example.

You haven't demonstrated anything on that level.

So a face palm is entirely appropriate for your misguided belief that there is even the slightest chance it is possible.

Everything has a context

Your ignorance at this basic set of principles on the matter doom your delusions to the level of being farcical.

 

[cats]

robo989: That escalated quickly

I like to see it in a different way than you do
If a burglar gets to a place where he really wants to get in, he might try the front door just to find out that it's a huge steel door that from the looks of it is impossible to open.
So he might give up there and go home, but what if all he needed to do was to go behind back to find an open window?

Just because it looks really hard, doesn't mean at all that it's impossible, and I'm all in for the learning experience here.
So even if I end up not cracking this nut, I will end up with some new knowledge and experience that might help me in future projects.

It is you who are ignorant good sir.

 

[Relys]

robo989: That escalated quickly

I like to see it in a different way than you do
If a burglar gets to a place where he really wants to get in, he might try the front door just to find out that it's a huge steel door that from the looks of it is impossible to open.
So he might give up there and go home, but what if all he needed to do was to go behind back to find an open window?

Just because it looks really hard, doesn't mean at all that it's impossible, and I'm all in for the learning experience here.
So even if I end up not cracking this nut, I will end up with some new knowledge and experience that might help me in future projects.

It is you who are ignorant good sir.

You have a bright mind. Keep thinking that way.

Don't worry about robo. He's a psycho/asshole that hides behind a thick layer of correct grammar and expansive vocabulary. He tries to put off airs of superiority even though his post history is full of snide remarks that lack any insightful research.

 

[robo989]

robo989: That escalated quickly

I like to see it in a different way than you do
If a burglar gets to a place where he really wants to get in, he might try the front door just to find out that it's a huge steel door that from the looks of it is impossible to open.
So he might give up there and go home, but what if all he needed to do was to go behind back to find an open window?

Just because it looks really hard, doesn't mean at all that it's impossible, and I'm all in for the learning experience here.
So even if I end up not cracking this nut, I will end up with some new knowledge and experience that might help me in future projects.

It is you who are ignorant good sir.

Not a bad comeback

I'm not insulting you. I'm informing you.
I'm not ignorant on this particular point, I've explained myself fully, why my analogy is correct.
Your analogy isn't the correct one to prove any kind of point. Since we're dealing with certificates here that are uncrackable, it is effectively impossible to get anywhere once you reach the "wall" that you have reached.
It's a wall nobody in the world has ever scaled, or destroyed. This is a fact, not an interpretation. The certificate signing used is industrial strength and the most intelligent minds in the world haven't found a hole in this.
This has nothing to do with the implementation of security like on the physical console itself. We're talking about bare bones server side verification.

Since it is server side, there is no possibility of exploiting this outside of committing a criminal act to obtain what is needed, as has sometimes happened in the past where certificates have been stolen. But these are very serious criminal offenses and there is no recorded case of such a thing happening for such important things as a 3DS (mass market). Even if one succeeded, Nintendo would simply create a new certificate and revoke the old one and force this through when a person contacts the server, doing so would be trivial for nintendo and require no further code or expense beyond a small fee to the certificate holding companies.

By me saying you are "ignorant", it is information that what you are doing is interesting but your thought that it could lead anywhere is simply impossible. By you calling me ignorant, it simply means that you are deflecting my post content as you interpret it as a hostile response instead of showing I'm wrong.

What you will end up with at the end of this experience, is the realization that what you have in mind as a slim possibility is as possible as walking on water.

...Nothing wrong with that, go knock yourself out and enjoy doing it. The days of amateur hacking are over and have been for more than 15 years, they died with the movement of shareware software developers using algorithms to validate registration keys used for their software instead of hardcodeing them n the binary.

End of the day I know this sounds like the mutterings of a condescending prick, but then does that matter, and does it make anything I say invalid.

Could easily have written this up in a submissive way and you'd be lapping it up, think about it, take the emotional reflex reaction away

 

[Chaldron]

-snip-

Lots of things have been done that have thought to be impossible. I can go on for days about examples, but here are the few obvious ones:

-light bulb
-Gateway
-3DS itself, go back maybe 20 years and ask everyone how a "hand-held console with 2 split-screens and one in 3D so it looks like real life"

Point is, things take time, and this project might not end up anywhere, but you never know if you haven't tried.

 

[Hozu]

Lots of things have been done that have thought to be impossible. I can go on for days about examples, but here are the few obvious ones:

-light bulb
-Gateway
-3DS itself, go back maybe 20 years and ask everyone how a "hand-held console with 2 split-screens and one in 3D so it looks like real life"

Point is, things take time, and this project might not end up anywhere, but you never know if you haven't tried.

Anyone who could break this kind of encryption would probably try to do something more self-serving like getting into banks.

 

[twill]

I don't think anyone is arguing that brute forcing the server's cert or aes-256 is an option. Had the server been using a weak cipher, than brute forcing the ssl session key would have been very possible. This isn't the case, but brute force also isn't the only attack ssl/tls is vulnerable to. And since consoles (and everything, really) have a poor record for implementing security, it can't hurt to kick the tires.

 

[cats]

Not a bad comeback

Since it is server side, there is no possibility of exploiting this outside of committing a criminal act to obtain what is needed, as has sometimes happened in the past where certificates have been stolen. But these are very serious criminal offenses and there is no recorded case of such a thing happening for such important things as a 3DS (mass market). Even if one succeeded, Nintendo would simply create a new certificate and revoke the old one and force this through when a person contacts the server, doing so would be trivial for nintendo and require no further code or expense beyond a small fee to the certificate holding companies.

There's a voice inside my head that tells me to pay you no mind, since this argument wont get anywhere.
But at the same time, I'm kind of enjoying this.
And "joy" was one thing that led me here in the first place, so what the heck, right?

First of all, I never said I wasn't a criminal and that I would not commit such an act.
You all simply would never know about it

Second of all, how can you say this when the Playstation Network was hacked, and so many other large corporations in the past?
If you had even the slightest idea about the "real" level of security in IT around the world, then you would not be saying this.

By me saying you are "ignorant", it is information that what you are doing is interesting but your thought that it could lead anywhere is simply impossible. By you calling me ignorant, it simply means that you are deflecting my post content as you interpret it as a hostile response instead of showing I'm wrong.

Although I don't know what information you are sitting on, I think I can say for sure that you don't know the inner workings of the Nintendo servers.
Saying that this is impossible, just shows how fast you give up.
And I'm not saying that I would be able to crack the secure ciphers that are used in this case, but there are other ways around it, plus the servers are load balanced, which might mean that one of the servers that the Mystery Gift domain resolves to, might support weak ciphers (although this seems unlikely given the fact that we have right now).
Also, all the facts that are known, are not in this thread, so bear that in mind.

What you will end up with at the end of this experience, is the realization that what you have in mind as a slim possibility is as possible as walking on water.

I almost wish I was religious so I could tell you "lol say that to Jesus", but I'm not ... so I wont
But I do think you are taking this a bit to the extreme here, and you are giving the makers of these technologies far too much credit for their work.
I research security on a daily basis both for work and as a hobby, and things get broken every day, although I don't believe the SSL technology used here will be cracked, I do see a possibility to go around this and poke around with the functions of the 3DS, that's what this forum is all about, is it not?

Anyway, I feel that you don't want to contribute to this project very much, and I see no more need to discuss this.
You wont change your opinion, fine, it matters not
I did enjoy writing this however.

PS: And about the "Nintendo would simply create a new certificate and revoke the old one and force this through when a person contacts the server".
This is very easy to prevent, and if such a hack would be created, the software could be modified to not contact that server, either internal modifications, or by simply not resolving the domain to that IP.


Thanks everyone for showing interest in this
I'm going to poke around a bit more with the servers and the certs, just to see if there's any way to get around it.

If not possible, then I will give up on not modifying the 3DS, and get a new one (since I don't want to modify the one I use for gaming), so that I can poke around a bit with it.

Cheers for now!

 

[IronClouds]

cats: You'll come to learn to just ignore all of robo989's posts, as it seems he's simply here to bait people into useless debates where he exercises his ability to belittle people behind his façade; one where he claims to be educating when instead he's just being a total douche nozzle.

 

[rooshoes]

yes please don't turn this topic into further fellating of robo989s already inflated ego since its clear he wont actually recognize it as such

nintendo will soon be releasing a game patch to fix a savegame bug in X/Y and i've heard it will be offered in-game similar to the way event pokemon are delivered. if there's any flaw in the game's ssl/tls workflow unrelated to brute-forcing a cert it may be of interest to intercept, see how it works, and determine if its payload is signed. if not, we could use that to our advantage. but from what i know about tls as a web developer, any potential exploit will likely require we get a decrypted dump of the firmware for its CA keys, and no one who has breached the 4.5 DS profile exploit has publicly acknowledged that such a dump is even possible.

 

[twill]

Yeah, I've tried to ask around a bit if anyone has been able to dump the 3ds ssl private key, but didn't find anyone who knew anything.

 

[Ace Overclocked]

Typical Gbatemp...
This sounds unlikely to work but so did the Twiizer attack, and we all know how that turned out to be.
As Cats said, even if it doesn't amount to anything it's still a good experience as we all learn through trial and error.
That being said, robo989 stop trying to look cool and gain recognition and get the fuck off this thread your bitching way more pointless than attempting this.

 

[master801]

Why doesn't someone already ban him?

 

[Chaldron]

Typical Gbatemp...
This sounds unlikely to work but so did the Twiizer attack, and we all know how that turned out to be.
As Cats said, even if it doesn't amount to anything it's still a good experience as we all learn through trial and error.
That being said, robo989 stop trying to look cool and gain recognition and get the fuck off this thread your bitching way more pointless than attempting this.

To elaborate for people who don't get the comparison, the Twiizer attack was literally using a pair of tweezers to get the private key.

 

[robo989]

Typical Gbatemp...
This sounds unlikely to work but so did the Twiizer attack, and we all know how that turned out to be.
As Cats said, even if it doesn't amount to anything it's still a good experience as we all learn through trial and error.
That being said, robo989 stop trying to look cool and gain recognition and get the fuck off this thread your bitching way more pointless than attempting this.

Apart from my attitude, nobody has disproven anything I have said. The only replies to my comments have been insults and analogies that aren't relevant.

My attitude may get yours and others backs up, but at the end of the day facts are facts and the content of my post proves it. In terms of the content of the replies and the analogies they simply show a lack of understanding of the concept being attempted.

You need to understand before you can have an opinion. That's the problem here, it's the common internet attitude of imaging something is possible, therefore it is possible.

I'm sorry but that is simply rubbish and a juvenile uninformed way of thinking. One that is rife here and most forums massed with people who aren't technically minded. Why do you think it is the people who are really into the hacking don't post here, or any other mainstream "hacking" site. It's because the discussion is nothing short of uninformed people who don't have a clue about what they are even attempting.

It's idiotic.

I'm not hiding behind anything, or attempting to look cool. How can you say that when clearly I'm in the minority here and none of my posts have attracted "likes". Likes, do not equal correct. The only thing of relevance being discussed here is one of the ego and juvenile fools not appreciating being told "no".

A good way to finish this would be to say that Leonardo Da Vinci did not invent the helicopter, he imagined it. It took another 500 years for that to pan out, and that's with a proper understanding of what he was imagining.

...That is how far fetched this particular thread is.

 

[cats]

Anyway, so I noticed that the DS versions of Pokemon also have a Mystergy Gift function, so I'll be playing around with that a bit as well.
Has anyone tried to sniff any data from the DS before?
I wonder if it goes against the same servers.

I'm gonna try with a DS game on the 3DS, to see where the data goes.

 

[josiascaignard]

robo989 then please leave this post, I mean, you are too much for us, aren't you? you have too much knowledge, please let us, the ignorant and uninteligent people of the low world of hacking, play with simple imagination, don't bother trying to stomp on us, after all, we are too stupid to understand your high intelect.

 

[Ace Overclocked]

Apart from my attitude, nobody has disproven anything I have said. The only replies to my comments have been insults and analogies that aren't relevant.

My attitude may get yours and others backs up, but at the end of the day facts are facts and the content of my post proves it. In terms of the content of the replies and the analogies they simply show a lack of understanding of the concept being attempted.

You need to understand before you can have an opinion. That's the problem here, it's the common internet attitude of imaging something is possible, therefore it is possible.

I'm sorry but that is simply rubbish and a juvenile uninformed way of thinking. One that is rife here and most forums massed with people who aren't technically minded. Why do you think it is the people who are really into the hacking don't post here, or any other mainstream "hacking" site. It's because the discussion is nothing short of uninformed people who don't have a clue about what they are even attempting.

It's idiotic.

I'm not hiding behind anything, or attempting to look cool. How can you say that when clearly I'm in the minority here and none of my posts have attracted "likes". Likes, do not equal correct. The only thing of relevance being discussed here is one of the ego and juvenile fools not appreciating being told "no".

A good way to finish this would be to say that Leonardo Da Vinci did not invent the helicopter, he imagined it. It took another 500 years for that to pan out, and that's with a proper understanding of what he was imagining.

...That is how far fetched this particular thread is.

Look, i have a proper understanding of what's on the table here. I'm fully aware of the encryptions that wouldn't let unsigned code pass through and do shit but that doesn't mean we don't have to try at all (As i said, the Twiizer attack was a way crazier concept and it worked) you may never know where loopholes are if you don't try to look for them and assume everything is done to perfection. Developers are also humans and not faultless so if the whole scene had your reasoning it wouldn't progress at all.
The only reason I see not to attempt something in general if there's something at stake, but we've nothing to lose here at all so let people do their thing instead of thrashing them down as long as they don't expect absolute success and don't get disappointed and bitch afterwards.
Nobody claimed it's going to work but that little 0.00001% of success is worth a try so quit being a smartass.

 

[migles]

people, enough of arguing and trashing the topic.... please try avoiding making posts just to answer other people saying its impossible, or basically if you don't have nothing to contribute besides flaming and arguing or making people down, i am tired of seeing trash come on... its getting hard to find info about what the OP is doing, if thats your plan, you are doing it great...

back to business:

To elaborate for people who don't get the comparison, the Twiizer attack was literally using a pair of tweezers to get the private key.

can you explain how it was done? or the full story about it?

 

[cats]

can you explain how it was done? or the full story about it?

I found something about it here

http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Tweezer_Attack