Hacking 3.4 and recent updates

[Dylaan]

Honestly you have to respect these guys (Team Twiizers and everyone else) for their perseverance alone!
So many people give them shit just because things don't happen they way they want and at the end of the day their work lives on.
I doubt I would still be so attached to my Wii if it wasn't for the talented coders who share all their accomplishments with us... Sure, piracy is fun and all,
but the amount of effort these guys put into their work just blows me away!

It's good to know that you're continuing to help out those with less knowledge like myself, even if only indirectly.
I'm possibly falling on deaf ears, but KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK GUYS!

 

[Luigi728]

I don't see it too, but there are different theories, so I didn't know what to believe
(I want to be sure before I turn WC24 back on ^^)

 

[marcan]

Those accusing me of piracy should think for a second and realize that there's a difference between having warezed at some point or another and having your work abused by thousands to break the law. I'm no angel, but I certainly do not wish to further increase the ability of people to pirate.

You should also stop making assumptions about what I do and what I don't do. There's probably warez on some place or other in my hard drive (I have stuff that's 10 years old here...), but I listen to free music (OCRemix) or music I legally own (SSBB's soundtrack is awesome. Yes, I own the game, and yes, I ripped it myself), I use free software almost exclusively, and I download movies/series because where I live it's legal, as we pay a levy on blank media and devices that goes to the artists (I'm paying the artists every time I buy a hard drive/printer/CD/DVD/whatever whether I download or not, so I don't have any problems torrenting an occassional TV series). This is more than most people around here can claim. I have no respect for, say, the three users that showed up with a strange bug with the HBC installer who turned out to have played over 400 pirated games on their consoles (and even tried to justify it). We didn't fix that bug (even though it really was an unintentional, honest bug).

Many people around here need to start READING and getting it into their heads that I'm not on a crusade against piracy. I just hate it when people use MY tools to pirate, because I do not wish to be an aid do piracy in any way, shape, or form. Even if I WERE a compulsive pirate (which I am not) I wouldn't be a hypocrite as long as I don't go around abusing free/homebrew software for piracy. Get my point straight: what bothers me is PEOPLE WHO USE THE HOMEBREW SCENE AS A MEANS FOR PIRACY (because people enabling / writing homebrew are more often than not NOT interested in helping piracy). If you modchip your Wii and pirate games, hey, that's a problem between you and Nintendo, not me. If someone creates their own warez loader / VC installer that runs using its own exploits, from scratch, without using any standard tools or homebrew code or the Twilight Hack or HBC or anything else, hey, go nuts. Just don't rely on MY stuff to pirate.

Those claiming that I'm a "criminal" or whatever for homebrew itself and babbling about how I'm breaking Nintendo's schemes anyway and warez or not I'm still a hypocrite can go fuck themselves, read the law (no, not EULAs, most aren't enforceable - the law), quote exactly what I'm breaking, and then come back.

 

[Slowking]

I download movies/series because where I live it's legal, as we pay a levy on blank media and devices that goes to the artists (I'm paying the artists every time I buy a hard drive/printer/CD/DVD/whatever whether I download or not, so I don't have any problems torrenting an occassional TV series).

It's the same thing here, with the distinction that we aren't allowed to make copys, even for private use, as soon as something is copy-protected, since a new law was passed a few years back. So we pay fees on blank CDs, DVDs and stuff but aren't allowed to use them for anything anymore we pay the fees for. It's just really fucked up. So consider yourself lucky, that you have a government with some sense.

 

[djdynamite123]

i agree with what you say Marcan, it will be annoying when people use your tools well foundation of your tools to enable piracy warezloaders etc, but anyway i take it back if i said anything out of form towards you or anyone. sorry. I and always admit what iv'e done, so don't shoot me for illegally doing allot of things, more worse things than piracy within consoles I'm sure

back in the younger days, when i knew ENGLISH allot better, oh maybe that's the other way round

I'm not sure... ha

 

[Syndication]

Personally I respect the stance and that's your prerogative regardless of whether people agree or not.

I do wonder about the clear conflict of interests between the two sides of the homebrew coin though. With the non-pirates forming the foundation of much of the pirate scenes work, it doesn't seem a wise position for everyone to be in. It would not be an issue if you both agreed to coexist peacefully, which has pretty much been the case so far but from some of your posts especially, marcan, I sense your mumblings of disapproval are slowly shaping into activity and that you're looking to become active in the fight against ISO loaders et al. Which, again, is your prerogative.. but it makes me wonder why people accept this dependancy in the first place while this conflict of interests exists. As you say, people could potentially seperate, code themselves and remove the leverage TT has but it doesn't happen. Perhaps it's too small a scene, or just too unorganized on one end. It wouldn't matter if you kept the live and let live stance as both continue to enjoy each others labours but quotes like this certainly flash warning signs:

that will completely stop the backup loaders, or warezloaders as you call them, and only allow true homebrew to run... no emulators, no copywrited games, nothing but true innovative homebrew.

Good idea.

Admittedly, I'm not sure how well your opinion reflects Team Twiizer's as a whole or whether I'm correct or not in assuming you'd follow through with such action but in any case it's not healthy. It's a shame as there are great benefits from piecing both building blocks together in this loose fashion we've enjoyed so far but on the other hand, what's to say Team Twiizer won't switch from neutral to active at some point in future and chaos ensues as everyone attempts to untangle the mess?

It's been said many times that this is a messy scene but I guess, while it works, it's not a problem. It's unlikely to last forever, though.

 

[BL4Z3D247]

i don't know why people insist on arguing about piracy and the laws associated with piracy when everyone is from different countries that have different laws about it...

marcan actually has some good points though... BUT here's the thing if you make something and are naive enough to think that no one is going to abuse it in any way then your just downright ignorant, i mean c'mon look at any other console or handheld(the last 5 years or so)

and marcan this isn't a shot in the balls to you(because i respect you), just making a point that just because you say and think something is right or wrong, or think your software should be used for this but not that doesn't mean other people think that way... i know it's wrong but it is what it is

 

[marcan]

It's the same thing here, with the distinction that we aren't allowed to make copys, even for private use, as soon as something is copy-protected, since a new law was passed a few years back. So we pay fees on blank CDs, DVDs and stuff but aren't allowed to use them for anything anymore we pay the fees for. It's just really fucked up. So consider yourself lucky, that you have a government with some sense.
Oh, our government is going in that direction too, but we don't seem to be quite there yet. Let's see how long it lasts.

and marcan this isn't a shot in the balls to you(because i respect you), just making a point that just because you say and think something is right or wrong, or think your software should be used for this but not that doesn't mean other people think that way... i know it's wrong but it is what it is
The difference is that it's my software, which is being used against my will. You can argue all you want about being naive, but that doesn't make what others are doing right (from a respect standpoint).

QUOTE(Syndication @ Nov 21 2008, 06:51 PM)

Admittedly, I'm not sure how well your opinion reflects Team Twiizer's as a whole or whether I'm correct or not in assuming you'd follow through with such action but in any case it's not healthy.

I'm not sure how you get to that conclusion when I didn't clarify in any way how exactly I would accomplish that. The point is that we're trying to take homebrew in a direction that will make it more and more useless to the pirates, in the hopes that they'll give up and start doing stuff from scratch (or "as from scratch as possible"). Or in other words: work on stuff that is great for homebrew, yet utterly useless for piracy. I don't mean artificially useless ("blocking" warez loaders) - I mean fundamentally useless. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[BL4Z3D247]

and marcan this isn't a shot in the balls to you(because i respect you), just making a point that just because you say and think something is right or wrong, or think your software should be used for this but not that doesn't mean other people think that way... i know it's wrong but it is what it is

The difference is that it's my software, which is being used against my will. You can argue all you want about being naive, but that doesn't make what others are doing right (from a respect standpoint).

and i totally agree with you on this, but people are going to do what they want(even if it is YOUR software), everyone has different morals(just as countries have different laws) and are not going to follow yours just because you say it's right/wrong(or your/their law says it's right/wrong)

that's why there is really no point in arguing this matter, i understand you have to voice your opinion as it's your right(and software) but this is just a ring-around-the rosie argument

 

[marcan]

As for being naive... we're all naive at some point. When we started with this we obviously didn't know that it would make VC piracy so trivially possible. Much less disc piracy, which is only possible due to that pesky DVD mode. We only found out about that when the whole letter to Nintendo saga began. DVDX exists because Nintendo didn't show interest in learning about it, so we decided to risk it and release a method for homebrew to make use of DVDs.

 

[EmperorOfCanada]

As for being naive... we're all naive at some point. When we started with this we obviously didn't know that it would make VC piracy so trivially possible. Much less disc piracy, which is only possible due to that pesky DVD mode. We only found out about that when the whole letter to Nintendo saga began. DVDX exists because Nintendo didn't show interest in learning about it, so we decided to risk it and release a method for homebrew to make use of DVDs.

Funny how they will spend millions to combat piracy, but show no interest when preventetive methods present themselves.

 

[BL4Z3D247]

As for being naive... we're all naive at some point. When we started with this we obviously didn't know that it would make VC piracy so trivially possible. Much less disc piracy, which is only possible due to that pesky DVD mode. We only found out about that when the whole letter to Nintendo saga began. DVDX exists because Nintendo didn't show interest in learning about it, so we decided to risk it and release a method for homebrew to make use of DVDs.

i understand that completely, no one knew that people would commit murders and/or robberies(or anything else wrong) when guns were invented, guns were for protection and people found a way to use it differently than what it was intended for, so i can understand that you had no clue of the possibilities your software could be used for

 

[fogbank]

Which, again, is your prerogative.. but it makes me wonder why people accept this dependancy in the first place while this conflict of interests exists. As you say, people could potentially seperate, code themselves and remove the leverage TT has but it doesn't happen.

I think the answer lies in the definition of the two "factions":

Homebrewers like to make things themselves, without "cheating". That is their pride and joy. It brings them fulfillment.
Pirates like to steal whatever they can get their hands on, for whatever stated reason (good or bad). They just love getting free stuff.

Lots of people fit somewhere in the spectrum between these two definitions, but these are the archetypes in the scene.

The true "trump card" that TT holds is the ability to find and take advantage of exploits. The only thing really important about the 3.4 update (to the pirates) is the loss of the Twilight hack. It is the only thing that TT really held over the pirate coders. Once it is possible to run unsigned code I think that there are pirate coders who are talented enough to do what they want without using TT's tools. I'm just not sure that there are talented enough hackers in the pirate scene to accomplish what TT has with exploits. As evidence of this just look at the reaction of the pirate scene to the loss of the Twilight hack...they are all silently (or openly) pleading and praying for marcan, bushing, et al. to find another "way in", instead of trying to do it themselves. They know that if Nintendo wiped out the HBC tomorrow they would be cut off from future pirating without a working exploit.

Only my opinions of course...

 

[Sick Wario]

be very afraid. anyone on wifi or wiiconnect24 is going to get the 'force update' to fw 3.5 next. they changed the terms and now anything can happen

 

[air2004]

question .... wouldn't you have to udate to 3.4 before they can force updates. What I mean is they terms of the agreement need to be changed before they can update you wii without your permission. and as for games that have the update on them , you have to agree to the terms before it will install it , so I was thinking suppose you buy a game that has the update and you do't agree to the terms of the update shouldn't you then be able to return to the store for a full refund ?

 

[Lazycus]

@ marcan - Why do you bother arguing in these forums? You are wasting your time doing so. Those with enough intelligence already understand your stance on piracy and your drive for homebrew/reversing/understanding on the Wii. Others just bait you into defending your position because they enjoy annoying you and getting a reaction out of you or are just ignorant. Save yourself time, stress and effort and do what you enjoy most with the Wii - I'm sure it's not debating in a topic such as this or worrying how your softwares may be used once they are released.

 

[m-audio]

Man i love the wii scene so much drama this is great stuff to read!
but as i sit here reading i wounder if Bill Gates and Linus Torvalds fill the same way ooh the flood gates they open to the world.

 

[McHaggis]

I read these forums all the time and often felt like voicing my opinion but never really wanted to get into all the drama but I really wanted to raise a point here.

and marcan this isn't a shot in the balls to you(because i respect you), just making a point that just because you say and think something is right or wrong, or think your software should be used for this but not that doesn't mean other people think that way... i know it's wrong but it is what it is

The difference is that it's my software, which is being used against my will. You can argue all you want about being naive, but that doesn't make what others are doing right (from a respect standpoint).

So what makes this any different from you using Nintendo's software against their will? Nintendo don't want you using their Zelda game to run homebrew, just like you don't want pirates to use your hack to pirate games. Don't you think that's a little hypocritical? It's ok that you use their software in this way, because they're a corporation, or what? Don't get me wrong, I (mostly) respect your opinions and I respect the fact that you don't want piracy to be a byproduct of your homebrew and hacks. At the same time though, I don't think that you have the right to ask people not to use it for a purpose other than what it was created for when that is exactly what Twilight Hack is doing with Zelda: TP and what the fakesigning bugs do with IOS. Maybe you'll just write this argument off as not being the same thing or assume that I'm pro-piracy and my point isn't a valid one.

You also say that Nintendo aren't interested in stopping homebrew, yet each update released so far has specifically targeted homebrew. Granted, this could have been as a means to stop piracy, but why target PatchMii and not cIOS? Even if there were no piracy, Nintendo would still be releasing these homebrew-blocking updates because they know that homebrew always leads to piracy. Your perfect world where homebrew is left alone because there is no piracy doesn't exist and it never will on any console.

The one thing that worries me about all this anti-piracy action is the effect that it will have on homebrew. You talk about DVDX as if you wouldn't have released it if you'd known how easily it would lead to piracy (even though just before DVDX was released, there were people on here getting very close to discovering the method anyway). svpe talks about USB 2 as if TT is purposely avoiding it because you're worried that we'll see a USB 2.0 loader. Is it really a good idea to let homebrew suffer because of this?

Anyway, thanks for all your hard work in the scene so far. I, for one, really appreciate it. As for the hypocrisy comment, I do think that we're all guilty of being hypocritical on some things in our lives, it's just human nature.

McH.

 

[svpe]

svpe talks about USB 2 as if TT is purposely avoiding it because you're worried that we'll see a USB 2.0 loader. Is it really a good idea to let homebrew suffer because of this?

er, no. I just said that if we ever make usb2 work pirates won't be able to abuse it for their warez needs with our current idea. usb2 actually requires writing or porting a full ehci stack which is just very boring and won't help homebrew that much. I can only think of one application that might need it (media players).
We're not avoiding it. We're just not working on it. I'm pretty sure we already told many times at which memory address the ehci registers are so everyone can just get the ehci specifications and start writing code for it.

 

[Jacobeian]

see, this is the typical problem of this board (and maybe others as well): ignorant people making false assumptions based on biased judgements

this is where drama starts from, from those who think they know "the truth behind the scene" and do not need to learn or read anymore, not from hackers taking the time to explain what they are doing in details