I think there's an inherent design hurdle with racing games that's almost impossible to overcome...

  • Thread starter Thread starter SolidSonicTH
  • Start date Start date
  • Views Views 3,132
  • Replies Replies 34
  • Likes Likes 6

SolidSonicTH

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
181
Reaction score
90
Trophies
2
Age
39
XP
1,036
Country
United States
In summary: getting a good race in single player is almost impossible and it comes down to difficulty balancing and player expectations.

Back in the day of the true "arcade racer" racing games were extremely challenging (or even unfair) as one of those "quarter-muncher" strategies to get players to keep spending money (under the belief that by playing often enough they'd be able to eventually beat the AI racers - or the time limit, if your cup of tea is OutRun or its ilk). So as these games moved out of arcades and focused more on the console gaming experience the actual act of racing would take the forefront over simply being difficult as a means to generate revenue. When other genres that were more known at one point for being arcade staples began adjusting themselves for consumption on consoles there were obvious tweaks they could make that would make them more palatable for the audience at home who only had to buy a game once and play it as long and as many times as it satisfied them (fighting games could focus more on balancing moves and toning down AI cheating, beat 'em ups could institute adjustable continues and giving players more options to stay alive, etc.). In general there were inherent ways to make games easier to be more approachable when the focus went from being something that would incentivize spending more money to beat the game to the total experience of playing the game would give the player.

However, whereas fixing those genres for play on game consoles was relatively straightforward and mostly involved creating a balanced difficulty that made them more beatable, racing games are faced with an issue with this same scenario that makes it much harder to address. In a real race you'll have several positions you can finish in and, generally, someone is always going to finish in those positions (assuming they make it to the end of the race). As far as I can tell there is no way to properly impart this structure in a single player environment. Video games condition the player to play to win and when it comes to racing games the only real way to "win" is to get first place. If you finish second, third, or even lower then that means the game was lost and the player will felt like they need to retry the race in order to get first because that's the only way they can say it was a successful session.

Due to this there comes an issue with designing opponent AI to be beatable instead of giving the player a genuine race. Simply put the experience of playing a racing game by yourself is contingent on beating the other opponent cars and the AI has to cater to that. I have never seen a way a game can properly sell to the player "if you finish fifth that's fine, don't worry about it, someone had to finish there". If a player thinks they're going to end the race in something other than first then they're probably going to restart unless they're playing REALLY casually. The existence of rubberbanding in racing games comes as a result of the need to have AI that LOOKS competitive but in reality is ultimately beatable (they'll stick to your tail if you're in front and slow down to let you pass them if you're behind but if you drive well enough they ultimately won't let you lose). AI opponents can be designed to really race the player, sure, but I bet you dollars to dimes that if that were the way the AI were designed in a racing game pretty much every player would say the AI is "impossible" because they give no quarter and ACTUALLY drive well. Maybe the player can keep up with them if they do that but invariably it'll feel hopeless because they can't seem to break out of third no matter how well they drive, which isn't conducive to the way players are conditioned to approach a video game (even I experienced this, despite my desire for opponents who fight you to the line, in Hot Wheels Unleashed because I had to cut the difficulty simply because I felt like my need to progress through the game still mandated I win at the end). Even the hardest video games (such as Ninja Gaiden) can still be BEATEN if you do play well enough - it's always possible to surpass the game's AI because the AI is ultimately designed to be beatable, you might simply not be at that level as a player. This approach doesn't work when it comes to racing because no one will ever think finishing in the middle of the pack is anything but failure (to make a functional single player racing game the AI pretty much has to hit a threshold where they aren't doing as well as they could be, usually by making them relatively slower than the player car - rubberbanding notwithstanding).

Some games do AI better than others (incidentally it feels like Gran Turismo 7 is on both sides of this coin thanks to its absolutely atrocious base-game AI that presents no fight whatsoever and its experimental GT Sophy AI system that actually creates tailored opponents who can race the player if that's what they're looking for) but ultimately I think this whole "needs to be beatable" aspect is the looming shadow that will always make creating AI opponents for racing games that feel "right" pretty much unattainable (I've still been able to beat GT Sophy on its highest difficulty, even if I like the racing experience up to that point).

But that's my take, what do you think? Bear in mind I think to look at this matter fully you have to consider both hardline sim games that strive to emulate real racing and also fantastical racing games where realism doesn't matter, just the experience of the race in and of itself (so things like Burnout 3's "scripted" AI that basically shows up on idling at specific points in the track where you can zoom by them no matter how far "ahead" they appeared to be or Split/Second's opponents that go to pieces like wet paper when you trigger a Power Play near them while their attempts to use Power Plays against you doesn't present nearly as much grief also need to be examined as much as Gran Turismo's lazy "chase the rabbit" approach to "racing").
 
Last edited by SolidSonicTH,
I think Mario Kart kinda is the only one that addresses this through the 150cc and 200cc modes since rubberbanding gets more aggresive on them
 
Jesus... Is this an equivalent of: "How to cripple an entire generation... with gear shift and cursive." ???

There's a huge difference between games designed to make you spent as much quarters as you possibly can before giving up, than making console games designed to make you spent as much money as you can to win.

In this sense, Racing Games are NOT the same as Racing Simulators and NOT the same as Arcade Racing Games.
There's a clear dinstinction between: OutRun for Arcade, Mario Kart for N64, Gran Turismo for PS and R: Racing Evolution for Gamecube.

The first, is designed to make you spend money.
The next one, is designed to be "challenging" by making opponents catch up with you (seriously, play Mario Kart 64 without rubber banding and it becomes a mess)
Then, Gran Turismo was designed to be a simulator, not a racing game where you could simply go and win arcade style.
Then, R: Racing Evolution, which is very balanced, aimed at players that looks for "realism" and enjoys the little nuanes and technicalities such as knowing when and how to accelerate, hit breakes, maintain a certain speed for cornering, using hand breaker for tight corners and learning not to loose too much speed when doing corners. It's a very interesting Racing Game that can get super challenging when you see someone in front of you, say... 10 cars lenght ahead and then realizing there's only a -00.500 difference of time between the CPU and YOU.

With this said... AI is designed to be challenging on their respective "fields".
Play OutRun for Sega Genesis, then jump straight to R: Racing Evolution, then go to Need for Speed NITRO and tell me if they're the same.

And then there's the Train Simulator from Japan.

Speaking for myself:
Ridge Racer anytime of the day, everyday.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Taleweaver
In summary: getting a good race in single player is almost impossible and it comes down to difficulty balancing and player expectations.

Back in the day of the true "arcade racer" racing games were extremely challenging (or even unfair) as one of those "quarter-muncher" strategies to get players to keep spending money (under the belief that by playing often enough they'd be able to eventually beat the AI racers - or the time limit, if your cup of tea is OutRun or its ilk). So as these games moved out of arcades and focused more on the console gaming experience the actual act of racing would take the forefront over simply being difficult as a means to generate revenue. When other genres that were more known at one point for being arcade staples began adjusting themselves for consumption on consoles there were obvious tweaks they could make that would make them more palatable for the audience at home who only had to buy a game once and play it as long and as many times as it satisfied them (fighting games could focus more on balancing moves and toning down AI cheating, beat 'em ups could institute adjustable continues and giving players more options to stay alive, etc.). In general there were inherent ways to make games easier to be more approachable when the focus went from being something that would incentivize spending more money to beat the game to the total experience of playing the game would give the player.

However, whereas fixing those genres for play on game consoles was relatively straightforward and mostly involved creating a balanced difficulty that made them more beatable, racing games are faced with an issue with this same scenario that makes it much harder to address. In a real race you'll have several positions you can finish in and, generally, someone is always going to finish in those positions (assuming they make it to the end of the race). As far as I can tell there is no way to properly impart this structure in a single player environment. Video games condition the player to play to win and when it comes to racing games the only real way to "win" is to get first place. If you finish second, third, or even lower then that means the game was lost and the player will felt like they need to retry the race in order to get first because that's the only way they can say it was a successful session.

Due to this there comes an issue with designing opponent AI to be beatable instead of giving the player a genuine race. Simply put the experience of playing a racing game by yourself is contingent on beating the other opponent cars and the AI has to cater to that. I have never seen a way a game can properly sell to the player "if you finish fifth that's fine, don't worry about it, someone had to finish there". If a player thinks they're going to end the race in something other than first then they're probably going to restart unless they're playing REALLY casually. The existence of rubberbanding in racing games comes as a result of the need to have AI that LOOKS competitive but in reality is ultimately beatable (they'll stick to your tail if you're in front and slow down to let you pass them if you're behind but if you drive well enough they ultimately won't let you lose). AI opponents can be designed to really race the player, sure, but I bet you dollars to dimes that if that were the way the AI were designed in a racing game pretty much every player would say the AI is "impossible" because they give no quarter and ACTUALLY drive well. Maybe the player can keep up with them if they do that but invariably it'll feel hopeless because they can't seem to break out of third no matter how well they drive, which isn't conducive to the way players are conditioned to approach a video game (even I experienced this, despite my desire for opponents who fight you to the line, in Hot Wheels Unleashed because I had to cut the difficulty simply because I felt like my need to progress through the game still mandated I win at the end). Even the hardest video games (such as Ninja Gaiden) can still be BEATEN if you do play well enough - it's always possible to surpass the game's AI because the AI is ultimately designed to be beatable. This approach doesn't work when it comes to racing because no one will ever think finishing in the middle of the pack is anything but failure.

Some games do AI better than others (incidentally it feels like Gran Turismo 7 is on both sides of this coin thanks to its absolutely atrocious base-game AI that presents no fight whatsoever and its experimental GT Sophy AI system that actually creates tailored opponents who can race the player if that's what they're looking for) but ultimately I think this whole "needs to be beatable" aspect is the looming shadow that will always make creating AI opponents for racing games that feel "right" pretty much unattainable (I've still been able to beat GT Sophy on its highest difficulty, even if I like the racing experience up to that point).

But that's my take, what do you think? Bear in mind I think to look at this matter fully you have to consider both hardline sim games that strive to emulate real racing and also fantastical racing games where realism doesn't matter, just the experience of the race in and of itself (so things like Burnout 3's "scripted" AI that basically shows up on idling at specific points in the track where you can zoom by them no matter how far "ahead" they appeared to be or Split/Second's opponents that go to pieces like wet paper when you trigger a Power Play near them while their attempts to use Power Plays against you doesn't present nearly as much grief also need to be examined as much as Gran Turismo's lazy "chase the rabbit" approach to "racing").
TLDR version: don't be sour about less than first place, and game design disagrees.

I agree with you on that. I enjoy losing more than winning vs. a Tough Person. That's why the best sparring matches for me were the ones where I was one-shotted. I learned the most from those.
 
TLDR version: don't be sour about less than first place, and game design disagrees.

I agree with you on that. I enjoy losing more than winning vs. a Tough Person. That's why the best sparring matches for me were the ones where I was one-shotted. I learned the most from those.

Yeah, more or less. The short form comes down to "either you have a field of opponents that winning against is in some way guaranteed by how they're designed or opponents who give you a good race and you have to be okay with finishing in something lower than first - there is no in between". Since the latter situation is virtually untenable for the average video game player game designers are never going to be able to design opponents who give the player a genuine challenge (just an arbitrarily hard one, perhaps, but one that still boils down to "eventually you will win"). That kind of design is taken for granted in virtually every other genre but if examined through the lens of racing games it suddenly doesn't hold up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MPRTwice
To echo Mario kart

The items (and giving better ones to lower places) makes a pretty fair equalizer

Also - the 4 races in a cup allows you to see a slight loss (such and 3rd or 4th) as a surmountable setback

I know I have played many cups, came in places below 1st in a couple races, and still won
 
Remember Grid and NFS Shift, without traction control nor ABS?

Hardest thing to nail in a racing game is force feedback actually communicating what the car is doing on the cheapest and most common hardware aka a controller. And then having physics that combined with the force feedback feel the closest to IRL. Horizon 5's controller physics almost nail it, as GT7 is just gorgeous with adaptive triggers on ds5.
 
Agree with everything in OP. i remember when I was little (I think on Gameboy) where I crashed out after a sharp turn in a racing game and decided to goof off and see what would happen if I took a course backward. It immediately became clear the bots grinned to a near halt and only started racing again when I turned around and recovered from being lapped. Rubberbanding was a thing then, and I suspect still is.

But yeah... If it's the aim to be first, why settle for anything else? You don't achieve anything with a lower place that you wouldn't in first, but the opposite almost always is. So of course anything but first place feels like a loss.
To my limited knowledge, I only know two variations:

* the rival system. Mario kart can pretend there's 16 or 24 racers or what have you on the circuit, but in single player it's only really one or two, with a bunch of Cannon fodder thrown in. Sonic offworld at least is honest and uses it ingame rather than be implicit.
* on course achievements. Offworld and Mario kart both reward you for collecting things on the track. In part that's just to increase your chances (the rings increase your top speed iirc), but they at least partially incentivize exploring rather than mere'being first'. Heck... Offworld had me looking for the alternative routes with their ruby thingies.

Still... Pretty meager considering the genres age. I don't pretend I know better without sacrificing it being a race game, but that's just how it is, i think.
 
The stigma around being second or third is crazy in racing games. The devs can't win since they can't make the games too easy then everyone is gonna whine that it's a kid's game. They can't make the game too hard since then everyone is gonna whine about not being first. The general attitude around the ranks in racing games have always been like this so no wonder. You lose if your second even though that's very impressive in a real life race since your the second best out of like twenty people. I agree wholeheartedly with you on this.
 
Most racing games bore me to tears, so I prefer combat racing. Cars with weapons. Carmageddon, Mario kart, crash team racing, Blur, you name it...
Burnout takedown for me.

I play games to do things I can't do in real life (not enough money to constantly buy cars to trash & I might die) and I'm sure that shoving a car off a track is much harder in real life too. But I like that it's not necessarily too easy, but also not too hard.

If you want to get good at actual racing, then the simulators that f1 use are much quicker at retesting individual situations. They aren't sitting there waiting for some random event to practice during a long race.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lightwo and Jayro
Burnout takedown for me.

I play games to do things I can't do in real life (not enough money to constantly buy cars to trash & I might die) and I'm sure that shoving a car off a track is much harder in real life too. But I like that it's not necessarily too easy, but also not too hard.

If you want to get good at actual racing, then the simulators that f1 use are much quicker at retesting individual situations. They aren't sitting there waiting for some random event to practice during a long race.
Yes, Burnout Takedown (a.k.a. Burnout Legends on the PSP) and Burnout Dominator were amazing. Road Rage was always my favorite game mode.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Skv0ra
Want more difficulty? Try to get 3 stars on knockout tours in Mario Kart World. There can be something beyond just getting first, and Mario Kart understands this well.
 
Most racing games bore me to tears, so I prefer combat racing. Cars with weapons. Carmageddon, Mario kart, crash team racing, Blur, you name it...
Interstate duology? All things considered great story, combat, customization where honestly haven't really seen since.
 
I just had this experience last night playing GRID 2. I have the game set to "Hard", which is definitely a challenging race, but it also makes it very hard to win and thus I found myself restarting a bunch.

I don't NEED to be in 1st to keep progressing through the game but it also feels like ass to just leave it without actually being thorough. No matter my racecraft I often seem to be coming up short because the racer out in front is seems to actually be driving but that means they and I are traveling at the same speed (in a real race this would be legit competitive but in a video game it feels frustrating that you're not overturning the gap because in a video game if you play well you should be able to win).
 
Last edited by SolidSonicTH,
I just had this experience last night playing GRID 2. I have the game set to "Hard", which is definitely a challenging race, but it also makes it very hard to win and thus I found myself restarting a bunch.

I don't NEED to be in 1st to keep progressing through the game but it also feels like ass to just leave it without actually being thorough. No matter my racecraft I often seem to be coming up short because the racer out in front is seems to actually be driving but that means they and I are traveling at the same speed (in a real race this would be legit competitive but in a video game it feels frustrating that you're not overturning the gap because in a video game if you play well you should be able to win).
And hence why I said Grid 1&2. These 2 perfectly demonstrate just how balls to the wall you actually have to race to be on par, and it's not only because AI doesn't make any mistakes. Real life is very much alike at the top of the pack.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SolidSonicTH
Actually the AI makes quite a few mistakes in Race Driver GRID and it looks kind of silly too (very arbitrary how they go completely off the rails for no reason). GRID 2 doesn't have such goofy-looking wipeouts, though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Skv0ra
Actually the AI makes quite a few mistakes in Race Driver GRID and it looks kind of silly too (very arbitrary how they go completely off the rails for no reason). GRID 2 doesn't have such goofy-looking wipeouts, though.
Such is the gem of the past in "serious" gaming titles, but if you think about it - say you get a rear blowout doing 100mph+, you're absolutely going into a rail looking very goofy, so its nowhere near as bad.
 

Site & Scene News

Popular threads in this forum