Temper Tantrums (the GBAtemp webcomic) - issue #38 "Stadia?"

By @WhiteMaze [prebreak][/prebreak]

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[WhiteMaze]

is stadia out there already? and is this rumour true?

I dont believe so, Google Stadia will take a while to be released to the public. Although
Im poking fun at the concept with this strip, for all we know Stadia could work flawlessly.

I just highly doubt it.

 

[tabzer]

Actually, there's a lot of correct information. Let me give you some reasons as to why game streaming will never be more than a proof of concept. Millions of American citizens do not have access to internet capable of 25mbps. Internet infrastructure would have to be upgraded which would cost billions upon billions of dollars. Not to mention all the people in 3rd world countries that do not have access to high speed internet. Online multiplayer is a big selling point for some games, online multiplayer with game streaming can not happen due to difference in latency. Same goes for online multiplayer/coop between 2 people living in different countries. The only people that do not experience lag when it comes to game streaming is people that live next to servers. Does not matter if it's Sony, Microsoft, Apple, Google etc. game streaming will never be more than a proof of concept. Much like Microsoft releasing an Xbox 1 that can only play digital games, it's a proof of concept, digital will never take over physical copies.

Game streaming, happens to a degree in MMORPGs. Then you have PSNow which is like game rental, where the software is pre-loaded before playing. A game can be delivered in chunks. Right now, people stream games by buying DLC season passes.

 

[Localhorst86]

Game streaming, happens to a degree in MMORPGs. Then you have PSNow which is like game rental, where the software is pre-loaded before playing. A game can be delivered in chunks. Right now, people stream games by buying DLC season passes.

That's not streaming, that's buying in chunks.

Video game streaming implies that the game is rendered an run on a remote location and only the inputs are sent from your location to the remote server and the server returns the video stream.

That's what PS now is.

However, I do believe that game streaming is still ways off for the vast majority of users with most people not having access to speeds of 25Mbit and more.

Here in Germany, for example, I only have access to affordable Internet at 16mbit speeds (I would have to pay 10x the current rate to get fibre), in a lot of rural areas (and mind you, most of Germany is rural) that's the maximum you can get.

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[tabzer]

That's not streaming, that's buying in chunks.

I was being figurative to point out a trend. Pay to play is a more streamlined/advanced stage of it. If you are willing to look at it that way.

Video game streaming implies that the game is rendered an run on a remote location and only the inputs are sent from your location to the remote server and the server returns the video stream.

No it doesn't.

When you stream a movie You download data and create a buffer (chunks), and your enjoyment isn't relayed across the network and back again in order to continue onto the next frame. All the actual work from decryption the video to the actual enjoyment of the medium is done on the client side. The server only sends the data. With video games, the work can still be done client-side.

That's what PS now is.

PS Now does what you said, but I was talking about the option where they let you save the game locally and enjoy it without lag.

 

[Localhorst86]

When you stream a movie You download data and create a buffer (chunks), and your enjoyment isn't relayed across the network and back again in order to continue onto the next frame. All the actual work from decryption the video to the actual enjoyment of the medium is done on the client side. The server only sends the data. With video games, the work can still be done client-side.



PS Now does what you said, but I was talking about the option where they let you save the game locally and enjoy it without lag.

In general, the enjoyment when streaming a movie is not relayed back because of the nature of the non-interactiveness of movies. But even then we relay information back when we skip ahead or back in the movie. We tell the service to give us a different frame now.

What you're describing - in terms of games - is digital purchases. Not streaming.

I mean, I am not going to stop you from thinking of it as streaming, but we both know that your train of thought is simply not what consumers and providers alike consider "game streaming".

Season passes are not game streaming, they are essentially preorders and/or bundled purchases of content. Back in the day, we called these add-ons and bought them in brick and mortar stores. Now we buy them on an online store front.

With Video streaming you never have access to the full movie or episode in an offline environment. Same goes for game streaming.

But digital purchases, even if you split them up into several chunks, can give you the full experience offline at some point (with the exception of online-only games).

Letting you save the game locally (and enjoying it without lag) is what we currently have and it's an entirely different concept to streaming, you're still going to need a powerful device (console or pc) to do the work. Streaming implies to the consumer and to providers that work is offloaded to a remote location. Be it storage space (in regards to movies) or processing work (games).

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[tabzer]

But even then we relay information back when we skip ahead or back in the movie. We tell the service to give us a different frame now.

If accessible locally, then it will do it. If not accessible it will request the data from the server. In one instance, it is not technically "streaming".

What you're describing - in terms of games - is digital purchases. Not streaming.

I described many different aspects. You can insist that it is not like streaming, but that only means you aren't willing to look at my point of view. I am considering the idea of pre-purchasing dlc as a transitionary step that is similiar to streaming.

With Video streaming you never have access to the full movie or episode in an offline environment.

Gee. If only I could think of examples of how games could be like that today.

(with the exception of online-only games)

The exception to the rule is the evolutionary step I am pointing at here.

Streaming implies to the consumer and to providers that work is offloaded to a remote location

It doesn't imply that at all. That is what you hope for.

 

[Localhorst86]

You can insist that it is not like streaming, but that only means you aren't willing to look at my point of view. I am considering the idea of pre-purchasing dlc as a transitionary step that is similiar to streaming.

Oh, trust me. I looked at your pint of view. I am just saying I don't share your point of view of pre-purchasing DLC as a transitionary step that is similar to streaming and your point of view is a rather outlandish one.

If anything, it's more comparable to Software as a service.

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[tabzer]

Oh, trust me. I looked at your pint of view. I am just saying I don't share your point of view of pre-purchasing DLC as a transitionary step that is similar to streaming and your point of view is a rather outlandish one.

If anything, it's more comparable to Software as a service.

What is pre-ordering dlc more similar to?

A. A box of rocks.

B. Video game streaming.

You are welcome, grandpa.

 

[Localhorst86]

What is pre-ordering dlc more similar to?

A. A box of rocks.

B. Video game streaming.

You are welcome, grandpa.

What kind of argument is that?

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[tabzer]

Informal and indirect. I'm being cheeky. You were treating "similiar" as an objective proposition. This is a lesson in relativity.

 

[Localhorst86]

I don't think that worked very well, then.

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[tabzer]

I don't think that worked very well, then.

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Well, it does require a little introspection and some short-term memory.

 

[Localhorst86]

Well, it does require a little introspection and some short-term memory.

Very well then.

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[vincentx77]

but true.

 

[DaveLister]

In Ireland we use that term to indicate that some ones attire or general appearance is bad .

Look at the fucking stadia........

 

[WhiteMaze]

That's not streaming, that's buying in chunks.

Video game streaming implies that the game is rendered an run on a remote location and only the inputs are sent from your location to the remote server and the server returns the video stream.

That's what PS now is.

However, I do believe that game streaming is still ways off for the vast majority of users with most people not having access to speeds of 25Mbit and more.

Here in Germany, for example, I only have access to affordable Internet at 16mbit speeds (I would have to pay 10x the current rate to get fibre), in a lot of rural areas (and mind you, most of Germany is rural) that's the maximum you can get.

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"Ping depends on several factors. The distance the packets has to travel, the IP network of your ISP, and several other network problems that hold up the packet. ... In conclusion, bandwidth and ping can affect each other in certain circumstances but you cannot expect a lower ping by simply getting more bandwidth."

This right here, is the single biggest confusion I see people make when it comes to this. While bandwidth and latency can affect each other to an extent, you cannot decrease your ping/latency just by increasing the amount of bandwidth you supply to the connection.

In other words, the key factor here is ping. The amount of time it takes for your information to reach the server, and getting a response back. This is the crucial part Stadia will rely on, and honestly I don't see it being anywhere near the requirements for smooth gameplay without input lag.

The reality, as far as I understand it, is that you can have 5000Mb of bandwidth. That's great. That's in fact fantastic. But if you live far away from your nearest server, that means absolutely nothing. Your ping will still be crap. You may be able to download/upload more information at once, but the time it takes to get there is still the same. Therefore your ping barely changes.

The biggest proof of this, is that I've had a total amount of 3 different internet service providers, and while my downloading / uploading have increased in speed, my LATENCY remains the same. Around 50-60 ms. Because I haven't moved any closer to the server, and because the cables carrying my information still have the same speed limit as before.

The real issue here, is that this requires a complete overhaul of server infrastructure and new cable technology to allow faster speed of information transfer, and therefore, lower latency.

 

[Localhorst86]

"Ping depends on several factors. The distance the packets has to travel, the IP network of your ISP, and several other network problems that hold up the packet. ... In conclusion, bandwidth and ping can affect each other in certain circumstances but you cannot expect a lower ping by simply getting more bandwidth."

This right here, is the single biggest confusion I see people make when it comes to this. While bandwidth and latency can affect each other to an extent, you cannot decrease your ping/latency just by increasing the amount of bandwidth you supply to the connection.

In other words, the key factor here is ping. The amount of time it takes for your information to reach the server, and getting a response back. This is the crucial part Stadia will rely on, and honestly I don't see it being anywhere near the requirements for smooth gameplay without input lag.

The reality, as far as I understand it, is that you can have 5000Mb of bandwidth. That's great. That's in fact fantastic. But if you live far away from your nearest server, that means absolutely nothing. Your ping will still be crap. You may be able to download/upload more information at once, but the time it takes to get there is still the same. Therefore your ping barely changes.

The biggest proof of this, is that I've had a total amount of 3 different internet service providers, and while my downloading / uploading have increased in speed, my LATENCY remains the same. Around 50-60 ms. Because I haven't moved any closer to the server, and because the cables carrying my information still have the same speed limit as before.

The real issue here, is that this requires a complete overhaul of server infrastructure and new cable technology to allow faster speed of information transfer, and therefore, lower latency.

I think most people actually know the difference between latency and bandwidth. But I was arguing bandwidth . Google itself says that a 25Mbit connection is the "baseline" for bandwidth in order to provide high quality gameplay at 4k resolution. On lower bandwidths you might run into attracting, frame drops or buffering issues.

I agree, though. Latency is another - probably even more important - issue on top of that.

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[WhiteMaze]

I think most people actually know the difference between latency and bandwidth. But I was arguing bandwidth . Google itself says that a 25Mbit connection is the "baseline" for bandwidth in order to provide high quality gameplay at 4k resolution. On lower bandwidths you might run into attracting, frame drops or buffering issues.

I agree, though. Latency is another - probably even more important - issue on top of that.

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I hope they are right. Because 25Mb is not that much by today's standards. I seriously doubt a 4K vídeo feed can be maintained over 25Mb bandwidth connection, but I could be wrong..

As far as the latency issues, I will be either dead wrong or frighteningly right.

 

[JavaScribe]

And how much Internet sucks on rural USA.

You should be wrong. You aren't.
If you've got satellite internet... Stadia is not for you.

 

[WhiteMaze]

You should be wrong. You aren't.
If you've got satellite internet... Stadia is not for you.

Agreed. Mario will jump 3 and a half hours later, over satellite connection..