Mighty No. 9 Controversy?

[Vengenceonu]

I thought the ouya made it to market? I can not really hold the broken promises thing over it when everybody had debunked it about 10 minutes after they first saw it (android hardware, at that point in life, for that kind of BOM and set to be a games machine forever more... yeah).

They did promise a new model every year with updates internals, more exclusives that STAY exclusives, better controllers(?) and more colors. Outside of the white 16gb OUYA, I haven't heard anything about them doing any of those things. It's so hard to keep up with how the OUYA's doing without getting caught up in the shit people say about it. LightyKD is about the only person I've seen saying positive things about it.

 

[Hyro-Sama]

There's certainly nothing illegal here, but it feels very... scummy? A show of bad faith? It's certainly not extortion, but raising money for DLC before the game is even out yet seems like a pretty bald-faced example of money-grubbing, especially when we're talking about a project that's made more than $4 million. I understand that budgets can be tough things, but when you make more than 4 times your original goal (or, for another perspective, 10 times more than Half Genie Hero's starting goal, which offered all platforms from the get-go), I find it hard to offer anything more than the world's tiniest violin.

Personally, I just haven't been very impressed by what I've seen of the game so far. The Beta is really easy, even on the hardest setting, and forcing players to use the dash for enemies is a gimmick that wears off fast. Plus, it just looks... I don't know, kinda ugly, aesthetics-wise. Add in Dina's antics (most recently, banning backers who tweeted on GamerGate) and the fact that the company has refused to acknowledge them in any way, and all the initial luster around the game and Comcept itself has kind of worn off for me.

I get that people want another MegaMan, but honestly, it seems that Inafune is just taking advantage of people's nostalgia here. Like Kamiya said, he's a business man, and a good one, I'll give him that, but all the bluster rings rather hollow. Maybe I'm too cynical, I don't know.

So it's more of ethics issue than a legal one and that's completely understandable. Some of the tactics used do seem rather manipulative, so I would say it's more consumer awareness than cynicism. Again, perhaps I just couldn't see it because I have no stake in this kickstarter whatsoever.

 

[Hells Malice]

EDIT: Guess i'll actually reply to the topic.
It's a very scummy thing to do and frankly I can't imagine 4million dollars was spent well if they have to constantly rummage for more money. Hell I could be wrong, but again I just can't see where the money is going if it's costing them so much.

I paid my $15 (I think it was $15 for the game?...) to make this dream a reality, and tbh if they want to fuck over their initial investors then i'll just pirate the rest of the game I paid for. I'm never opposed to using piracy to unlock what should have been included with the original game in the first place (or IS included but is, again, locked).

It's an inherent flaw in the system of early access in all forms. You pay for a product that isn't done, the people get the money, and then there is absolutely no guarantee that you'll ever see the product. At best, you generally won't see it in a timely fashion. I like the idea of Kickstarter, just like I like the idea of early access games on Steam, but I don't like how they actually work in practice.

Most devs warn not to invest in a game if you do not believe in it. That's what you're doing, you're not buying or pre-ordering the game really, you're investing in its creation.
The inherent flaw is actually peoples mindset that they are paying money for a 100% chance the game will exist in the time and form that has been discussed, which is typically where reality comes in with a backhand to the face.
You are investing in the idea and the promise the game shows, and trusting the dev to do what they say. There's nothing wrong with any of that because the nature of an investment is that it's a risk. The difference here is that your "return" is a completed game that never would have existed otherwise. Steam early access is a little different but is fundamentally the same, there's no promise the game will ever reach a true and proper "finished" state, nor is it guaranteed to stay on the same path it originally was on. The nice thing about early access* is that it's a bit more concrete than Kickstarter, it's a bit easier to believe in what a dev is saying when they can show you what they've already got. Still, it's an investment and not a concrete purchase or pre-order.
Sometimes, you're going to get burned. If you don't want to take that risk, don't invest. Wait for the finished creation.

*I originally abbreviated Early Acces as EA but I couldn't bring myself to have a sentence read "The nice thing about EA"
the internet would never forgive me.

 

[Gahars]

The nice thing about early access* is that it's a bit more concrete than Kickstarter, it's a bit easier to believe in what a dev is saying when they can show you what they've already got. Still, it's an investment and not a concrete purchase or pre-order.

I don't know, Early Access doesn't quite sit well with me. I guess I just can't get behind the idea of paying to do a developer's beta testing.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

Early Access requires that the game is "finished", but "finished" is an entirely subjective term.

Not too long ago the Starbound devs released a blog post basically addressing concerns on development. To make a long story short, they stated that they're moving goalposts forward so they can consider the game "finished" so people will stop complaining about an "unfinished" game. They just kinda ignored all the goals they originally set.

There are plenty of games that go through Early Access and are released as "finished" but are really nothing of what they promised. I guess you'll get more than Kickstarter, which can be an outright scam, but it's not much better.

I didn't trust MN9 from the moment it was debuted. The game is made by influential people in the gaming industry. If they couldn't get funding from someone for this game then it's obvious that something is up.

 

[BORTZ]

I think if I had backed this game and were more involved in the community of MN9 and possibly voiced my opinions about gamergate, I would certainly be banned from the MN9 forums. I think after an episode like that, I think I would be looking for some legal precedent to get my pledge money back. It feels weird and certainly not something that should be supported in my opinion.

But none of those things happened and I have no stake in the project thanks to my "no backing any kickstarter" rule.

I am really hoping this either turns out ok and does really really well, or burns out and flops like a mad fish. I would rather this not be something that fizzles and fades away into obscurity into the folds of history. This is a great example for kickstarters to come, about how to NOT run a campaign. Spiteful? Yeah maybe.

 

[Vipera]

Kickstarter started as a site for individuals to develop an idea they had by getting funded from others. FUNDED, not paid. FUCKING FUNDED.

Now it's full of easy-source money. And this happens. Meh.

 

[GHANMI]

The Comcept situation is shady as fuck.

• Initial Mighty No 9 Kickstarter, largely funded at 3800K $ (original goal was 900K $ or so) - even the biggest stretch goals at the time (console/handheld versions)
• A wild community manager appears!
• She got her position due to nepotism quoting her thanking her boyfriend at Comcept for it, no prior experience, voiced disinterest in the Megaman series but interest in pushing and influencing the narrative of the game to insert her personal ideals
• Gave a very ugly pitch for the hero as a female protagonist. Backlash intertwined with misogyny, things got ugly
• Heavy handed moderation, blocking mail or forum posts in both English or Japanese from filtering to the Japanese side. Backers removed for this stuff from lists of backers (dunno if legal?)
• Some backers ask for refunds. Get denied. (turns out CM is in Osaka and filters all incoming mail) Some have to report it as scam to their banks and credit card companies directly to get money back (and Comcept may be blacklisted from some because of that)
• Somehow, said CM does indeed have real input in character design in both MN9 and other projects - "Chara designer" written in Japanese to hide out this fact.
• Gunvolt "localized" with more than 65MB of text/audio data missing and heavy text edits to insert whatever fancy the translators had - citing the omission of audio due to the audio being "too different from the English script which had to be modified and altered since it was impossible to culturally translate" (a load of bullshit). End result is somehow worse than localizations for Cybernator and Megaman ZX.
• Official board becomes a wasteland where anyone not being lauding every single aspect of the game without any hint of criticism gets banned.
• Inafune fantasizes about a Megaman Legends-esque game for KS too
• tie-in TV anime and lots of marchandise announced
• because of the TV anime, Comcept deems the game needs voice acting DLC and asks for even more money for voice acting both Japanese and English, 2x100K $ or so. Fail miserably.
• radio silence
• they decide to make said DLC anyways and have a poll of which language to choose: English or Japanese. Interestingly enough, they're holding in a Japanese KS-like site a parallel fundraiser which only mentions JP audio. That 100K $ was funded anyways through paypal donations.
• before the game is even out, they tease a new KS fundraising effort for another DLC - a playable character and a level. 200K $ (!)
• only thing released so far is an unfinished beta with three levels, only two released so far - kind of like a proof of concept technical demo. and release date is Q1 2015.
• ?
• ??
• ???

Edit: oh, I forgot about when the CM was engaged in some recent internet war (the gamergate controversy) and judged the best thing to do to her opponents was using the official Comcept company twitter account of all things to hunt down anyone who uses in his/her personal tweets a tag she dislikes, using a bot, and blocking it from twitter (with "fuck you" messages being sent) as well as removing them from the backer list (which they paid for) and forum member lists.

As Kamiya best put it: Inafune is a businessman.
But not one really careful about what his PR team does, it seems.

 

[FAST6191]

Kickstarter started as a site for individuals to develop an idea they had by getting funded from others. FUNDED, not paid. FUCKING FUNDED.

Now it's full of easy-source money. And this happens. Meh.

I have no great issue with corporates using kickstarter, however I should mention that being funded also involves being paid at some level. Not always as it is quite possible to still develop a game in your free time, however that does also mean you only have your free time to do it rather than a more dedicated approach and things might take a lot longer.

 

[JulietStMoon]

Kickstarter started as a site for individuals to develop an idea they had by getting funded from others. FUNDED, not paid. FUCKING FUNDED.

Now it's full of easy-source money. And this happens. Meh.

Um, you realize that that's what funding inherently goes to, right? Why do you think it costs money to hire programmers, etc? Because those programmers need to eat and be sheltered.

This is such a stupid post. Funding a kickstarter project inherently MEANS paying the people making it, because there's no way to make the game otherwise. Every expense involved in making a game is payment to SOMEBODY.

 

[Heran Bago]

As GHANMI pointed out. A lot of people were upset that a woman was working on the project. Not directly on it, but moderating the forums and suggesting that being able to choose the main characters gender wasn't a bad thing.

/v/ and similar refer to women in positions like this as 'the cancer that is killing games' or something, and then they're shocked when people don't take gaming seriously as an art form.

 

[Nathan Drake]

As GHANMI pointed out. A lot of people were upset that a woman was working on the project. Not directly on it, but moderating the forums and suggesting that being able to choose the main characters gender wasn't a bad thing.

/v/ and similar refer to women in positions like this as 'the cancer that is killing games' or something, and then they're shocked when people don't take gaming seriously as an art form.

There was some misogyny, certainly, but the biggest problem was that she acted as a plague. I was more focused on all of the bad she did on a project that people poured their money into expecting a quality result than the community that hated her. If all you got out of what she did was "she pitched a female main character and people chewed her out for it", then clearly you didn't get very far into GHANMI's post. She dun screwed a lot of things up on something she shouldn't have even been so deeply involved in.

As far as community managers go, she is one of the worst.

 

[orcid]

kickstarter should help developers who don't get money from traditional investors. After "selling" so many copies of the game before release it should be no problem getting money for a dlc without kickstarter (if they really need money). They are abusing kickstarter for selling the dlc before release.

 

[M[u]ddy]

Here is a nice article about why people are dissatisfied with Dinas work as a community manager:
http://techraptor.net/content/might-no-9-lesson-manage-community

As GHANMI pointed out, a lot of people were upset that a woman was working on the project.

If Dinas gender was the problem, why didn't the same people complain about Manami Matsumae?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mightyno9/mighty-no-9/posts/596783

 

[GHANMI]

As GHANMI pointed out. A lot of people were upset that a woman was working on the project. Not directly on it, but moderating the forums and suggesting that being able to choose the main characters gender wasn't a bad thing.

/v/ and similar refer to women in positions like this as 'the cancer that is killing games' or something, and then they're shocked when people don't take gaming seriously as an art form.

For starters, one of the very first promises Inafune gave when starting his KS was that the backers would get to suggest and vote the design for the male main character and the co-starring female protagonist.
If the CM pulls a veto on whatever was chosen by fans, that's simply betrayal of said promise. And no, in this case this CM does indeed have real influence on the creative input as acknowledged by her on twitter (in Japanese, for some reason) and some of the script edits in Gunvolt which are definitely not in the JP version.

Besides, the fact that a female protagonist (the playable sister) already exists makes any arguments for altering the sex of the MC to supposedly push female representation totally devoid of any shred of legitimacy - but said CM seems rather aggressive in pushing her ideals - as evidenced with her banning people for criticizing her Beck female design she's trying to impose... not badmouthing her, criticizing an opinion she happens to hold. She lumps them with sexist harassers - that's one hell of a leap.
The fact that this legitimate criticism got lumped down with sexism tweets is disgusting
- and somehow an easy way out for said CM to avoid/shut-down debate on the content of the game. And she went one step further with a partner in crime (male, btw) and went full totalitarian mode where people get banned for not applauding loudly enough at whatever they show.

I avoided pointing out the CM's name or gender or orientation on purpose. Focused on her deeds.
Because it's irrelevant at this point.

Using company account to block people from stuff they paid for, from mailing the company, from getting refunds, and sending automatized bot-generated list of users messages with "fuck you you misogynist manchildren" (including, might I mention, quite a bit of girls, some from Japan who seem pretty mesmerized at the whole shitstrom on the KS page), removing people from backer lists they paid for illegally - and making banks blacklist the company as a scam/fraud, (even without talking about the totalitarian forum moderation with big brother stalking tendencies outside the forum to track down potential dissenters for stuff they say outside)
- doesn't have acceptable contexts.



Not that the rest of Comcept's practices as a whole aren't as shitty, if not more, but they do have some of the worst PR people in the industry since Bernie Stollar and that makes them even less likable.

 

[CathyRina]

As GHANMI pointed out. A lot of people were upset that a woman was working on the project. Not directly on it, but moderating the forums and suggesting that being able to choose the main characters gender wasn't a bad thing.

/v/ and similar refer to women in positions like this as 'the cancer that is killing games' or something, and then they're shocked when people don't take gaming seriously as an art form.

As far as I remember people were upset about her because of her private twitter posts of how she hates how women characters are presented in video games. At the same time the very same she was suggesting to make Beck female, as if that made a difference with Call being already confirmed as a playable character. She was, as Ghanmi already stated, very aggressive about it. People were afraid she would send the wrong message to the developers so they started sending her questions on twitter and forums towards which she responded very unprofessionally by locking her twitter account for a while and then deleting posts on the forums. Later when she finally unlocked her account people found old tweets of her talking with one of her friends how she got the job. They also found the fact that she never played a Megaman game. Which contradicts with her introduction that she wrote on the forums (that looked like it was written by 9 year old btw.) where she stated that Megaman X is the best Megaman game. Then people started to criticizing her which she couldn't take and started deleting topics and baning people from the forums. Forums that has exclusive access to backers, where you can't simply create a new account. She also made her Twitter entirely private because she needed to "separate her real life from job life".
It was never about her simply being a woman, there is nothing wrong with that. She is just a unprofessional community manager that got into the team by knowing someone who worked at Comcept and being very aggressive about her own ideals, not the communities, and who does not tolerate critique. She had no experience how to be a good community manager and has never been taking critique very well which as a community manager, who can't even write a proper introduction, isn't a good thing. She also lied to the people by saying she likes Megaman X when she clearly never played a Megaman game. She is basically a second Phil Fish. With the difference that Phil at least gave us a great Indie game while he gave us nothing really.

 

[Grmmish]

Super old post I know but I saw it and was interested to read since Might No. 9 is horrid. XD

I didn't trust MN9 from the moment it was debuted. The game is made by influential people in the gaming industry. If they couldn't get funding from someone for this game then it's obvious that something is up.

You're right... I thought of that but with Bloodstained (Which the prequel was amazing, their friendliness is amazing and Ritual of the Night looks promising.) I just assumed that's what people are doing these days, big or not, especially when they were kicked out/left bigger companies. But you're right. Someone so big should have been picked up...

Um, you realize that that's what funding inherently goes to, right? Why do you think it costs money to hire programmers, etc? Because those programmers need to eat and be sheltered.

This is such a stupid post. Funding a kickstarter project inherently MEANS paying the people making it, because there's no way to make the game otherwise. Every expense involved in making a game is payment to SOMEBODY.

This is true but I believe what the guy meant was something like "We can make the game on our own but it will take far more time because we do it on our free time and for free. But if you guys did not help fund we would still come out but the quality may not be as great and the time it takes will be far longer."
Not
"Fund us or the game will not be done."
Although both are correct, I feel if you cannot make the games with your bare bones or the small amount of money you have/get now, then you are probably better off SAYING You can't without the funds or just not having a Kickstarter... But we know no one will SAY that but who knows. Maybe


As for the DLC... I think that is FISHY. No one should EVER kickstart DLC unless the DLC kickstarting campaign was AFTER the game's release... And even still that is fishy. Hear my point out:
If we just want the game... We just want the game. We helped to fund THE GAME. It's not even certain we will even LIKE the game. And if we don't like the game we certainly won't like the DLC. And if the DLC is incorporated with the game's funding, we just gave those guys REAL MONEY to fund a game we don't like and even more, DLC we don't like/won't pay for after release because the game was trash. See how this is fishy? If they needed money for DLC? THEN RELEASE THE DAMN GAME, SELL THE GAME THEEEN use the money from the sales to release DLC. It's like trying to grab out money really quickly for something they might not sell well, or even worse, they KNOW they won't sell well. Trying to get money for something almost completely unrelated just because the current thing is doing well is really fishy. DLC should never be incorporated into the Kickstarter of the main game unless it was already released. And even still it shouldn't be. It's like we are giving you money to make even more money than you will? The money you will make should be enough/used for extra content AFTER the game is released. Very scam-worthy approach. I see absolutely no logical reason to fund DLC especially if the game was not released yet. DLC should not even be on their plate. How can you add extra things to a game one did not finish? We don't put icing on cake mix. LOL

 

[Chary]

Guild? Gahars? Sorry, did I step in a time machine? What in the world?

I just assumed that's what people are doing these days, big or not, especially when they were kicked out/left bigger companies. But you're right. Someone so big should have been picked up

I think both series, Castlevania and Mega Man were basically "done to death" to the higher management. I'm fairly sure Capcom/Konami execs both said that it would be pointless to continue the respective series as they had been. Which is why we also saw such a drastic departure from the Iga-vania style. This wasn't so much of a problem with Inafune or Iga, but with the idea they wanted to bring to the table being thought of as a waste of money.

 

[Grmmish]

Guild? Gahars? Sorry, did I step in a time machine? What in the world?


I think both series, Castlevania and Mega Man were basically "done to death" to the higher management. I'm fairly sure Capcom/Konami execs both said that it would be pointless to continue the respective series as they had been. Which is why we also saw such a drastic departure from the Iga-vania style. This wasn't so much of a problem with Inafune or Iga, but with the idea they wanted to bring to the table being thought of as a waste of money.

I think "Done to death" is a foreign word with Capcom... And good investments on what we want is a foreign statement to Konami. XD Yeah maybe they do have to change things up like Resident Evil 7 or Mega Man Legends. But to STOP COMPLETELY?

Capcom throws away Mega Man which had millions of games, millions of ports and millions of merchandise but keeps Street Fighter and EVERYTHING ELSE They own.... Which also gets millions of everything mentioned up there TO THIS DAY?

I even heard Resident Evil 4 is getting ported to the Switch... XD Surely something ELSE must have happened.
.... Oh but as soon as something isn't AS MUCH of a commercial success as the next (Dragon's Dogma, Chaos Legion, etc.) Capcom is quick to act like it never existed. XD They go ALL out or not at all... They NEVER just drop something like that. So I don't know...

For Konami... Maaaaaaan. They are quick to give us some bull, but as soon as we want another Castlevania game, which they have all the rights to continue on with just different developers, they are like "Castlevania? .... Never heard of it..." with EVERYTHING they seem to decide to stop... I really don't know what is wrong with Konami. XD And I certainly don't know what happened with Mega Man. But hey. LOL


P.S.: Whatever happened to Might No. 9 on the 3DS and stuff? It was promised to come out, google says it was released... Can't find a digital or physical version. ._. (Not that I would buy it. xD)

 

[JulietStMoon]

Guild? Gahars? Sorry, did I step in a time machine? What in the world?

Oh man, I know! Guild, mr "I'm gonna pretend to be on a high horse of logic while still being super emotional about games myself," and Gahars, mr "literally everything is a pun." I honestly miss them both. [emoji23][emoji24]

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