Hacking Is console hacking not illegal or what?

[Mrdx]

What Countries? China?

Copyright infringement is illegal no way round that but would a US company take on China in such a situation?

Well many african and other third world countries.

 

[sion_zaphod]

Depends how c**ty the company wants to be if we're talking about the third world. I'm pretty sure they would take that on the chin rather than risk bad publicity.

 

[kevin corms]

of course its not illegal, even eula doesnt hold up in court unless they can prove it damaged them somehow. For example those warranty stickers are complete bs, simply opening an item doesnt void a warranty.

 

[Absintu]

resuming my opinion:
1 - hardware mods are not illegal, as long as you are not making bombs with that hardware. You bought the hardware, you do whatever u want
2- piracy is illegal in almost every place, including china. But there is a difernce betwen illegal and taking legal actions. That is diferent from country to country. Here in the EU, normally you only have problems if you are making money with piracy. If its for your own use, they close their eyes.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

 

[osaka35]

I dunno why so many people in these threads seem to think that when one pays for a console they own it, because that's not the case. When you purchase a console, you are pretty much paying for the privilege to use it against the guidelines set by the manufacturer. Every console now has a EULA one must agree to before even using it which is a legally binding contract (at least in the US). No, you don't have the right to misuse the equipment. It's not yours. As stated before, though, it obviously wouldn't be economically sane for a company to pursue small time end-users.

you own the hardware. You do not own the software. But you can't use the hardware without using their software, so that's where the contention happens. Can you run your own code on the hardware? Absolutely. But what if you have to break a lock in their code to make it work? Companies don't like this, but the courts tentatively allow it (iphone jailbreaking is an example). Really it's a back and forth between how far we can break their locks and run our own code on the hardware we own.

"reasonable" is something that has yet to be overly defined in situations like this, so right now we're letting the court system create these laws. (this is just USA politics, not sure about the rest of the world)

 

[Crusard]

resuming my opinion:
1 - hardware mods are not illegal, as long as you are not making bombs with that hardware. You bought the hardware, you do whatever u want
2- piracy is illegal in almost every place, including china. But there is a difernce betwen illegal and taking legal actions. That is diferent from country to country. Here in the EU, normally you only have problems if you are making money with piracy. If its for your own use, they close their eyes.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

In Spain piracy is not ilegal, you can pirate every thing you want, but you can not receive any money for that, for example, get paid for install a CFW on a console, sell pirate disk of a film, put ads on a piracy website... But we pay a tax for any device with storage, like CDs/DVDs, CellPhones, HardDisks, pendrives... only because "You can save pirated things on it"

 

[guily6669]

of course its not illegal, even eula doesnt hold up in court unless they can prove it damaged them somehow. For example those warranty stickers are complete bs, simply opening an item doesnt void a warranty.

I also don't agree with that crap... Some laptops you are not even allowed to change the HDD or ram even though they have the openings for them.

My brother's laptop 4 example I told In the store that I had more ram of the same type and a SSD to put inside and they said I can't, I have to ask the manufacturer to give me authorization to change without loosing warranty and I was like really? Stupid damn ppl...

My laptop 4 example is unbranded from Clevo 11.6 inch, I can open the full back cover, change thermal paste, CPU, cooler..... And I don't lose warranty. Someone from other forum made me a custom CNC cooler and I'm using a custom bios that allow OC and now the Nvidia GT650m can overclock a lot, specially without the back cover and using the cooling pad with a huge fan that I have from thermaltake.

Ps: can't wait until switch 3.01 get hacked so I can open my switch, change thermal compound for Artic MX4, add thermal pads + copper tape everywhere for even more cooling. And maybe I will talk with the other guy again to see if he is going to make custom CNC coolers or a full copper backplate more thick.

 

[smf]

Because so far, I haven't seen any news about console hacker developer being arrested
I'm not taling about end user like me, I'm talking about engineer who develop those hack/exploit

Is it like not legal, but not illegal as well?
Is it only what you do with those exploit that can be illegal?

You only get arrested for breaking criminal laws, copyright infringement is a civil law. You'd have to be involved in some form of organised crime to get arrested.

It's not entirely clear whether it's legal though, Geohotz certainly decided that hacking the ps3 was illegal after he settled in court. To a certain extent it depends on what country you live in though.

You probably would be ok with working to make Linux work, but backup loaders or activating content that you don't own is a different ball game.

If you're worried and you live in the US then I would assume that because of the DMCA then it probably isn't legal. However to bring a case would be very expensive and they'd have to find you first. The EU has a similar law called the EUCD, which is slowly being enacted around Europe. I don't know of any cases brought yet that would give an indication of what would happen if you find yourself in court.

In Spain piracy is not ilegal, you can pirate every thing you want, but you can not receive any money for that, for example, install a CFW on a consola, sell pirate disk of a film, put ads on a piracy website... But we pay a tax for any device with storage, like CDs/DVDs, CellPhones, HardDisks, pendrives... only because "You can save pirated things on it"

Piracy is totally illegal in Spain, they just don't enforce the law. Just because you can get away with breaking the law, doesn't mean anything. Lots of criminals get away with it. In the US and UK there are people doing the same things every day too.

If you google for spain anti piracy law then there are lots of hits. As a part of the EU the spanish government has a responsibility to enforce copyright law. Letting people off by paying a media tax does not reimburse the people who have had their copyright infringed.

I'm American, and I'll modify anything I buy, no matter what. I bought it, it's mine, and I'll do whatever the fuck I want with it.

The people who wrote your DMCA law disagree with you. Sure you bought it and you have legal ownership of it, doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with it.

You can buy a car, but not make every modification you want to it either.

https://www.zeroto60times.com/2015/06/11-common-illegal-car-modifications/

So why would you expect the same for a games console? Modifying it to allow piracy is a clear DMCA violation, ie it is against the law.

Whether you care or not is something you can decide for yourself, but you shouldn't be under the misguided thought that you have the right to do it. If modifications were legal then people would sue when their consoles get banned.

 

[YOUCANTSTOPME]

There isn't really a single answer for this question. It all depends on the country you live in. "Console hacking" is usually considered a grey area.

 

[notimp]

Wooo! Its Millenial patrol all over this thread right now - people want to voice their believes!

I shouldnt even bother to react by now - because, even after you are presented with the actual legal texts and interpretations, of why console hacking is legal, in msot countries in the west, and certainly the US - *heck*, why read a longer post if you could post believes instead - you are still pretty darn hung up on this

EULA / TOS

stuff. You basically think, by clicking "OK" you loose all rights that whatever legislature you are in grants you.

Thats distinctly not the case.

Absolutely not.

Those things arent even legally binding - most of the time, if you challenge them. Here is how this works.

You don't have to identify yourself as a legal entity, before signing EULAs/TOS. There is no third party that can make up, verify or alter the contract. None of which is written in a EULA/TOS can overrule existing consumer or ownership rights (or any right to anything you are granted on the basis being a consumer, or indeed "existing"...) - even though companies have tried time and time again.

What they are - are agreements, that you acknowledge to use a service. Not a product - a service.

If you refute them in any way - and you have the right to do so at any point - they are null and void, from that point forward.

The idea behind them is the following. They are blanket "do anything you want" cards for companies, that deal with a massive amount of customers. That they even exist is a "licking the feet" gesture to a form of capitalism, where one company serves so many consumers, that even the act of engaging in "legal dealings" with a fraction of their customer base would wipe out the company - cost wise.

For this not to happen they get blanket sheets of what they can do with you as a customer, as long as its not conflicting with actual laws. Lets say a law says, that you have to be informed, to whom you give your data, and what they do with it - by signing a TOS yous say - "ok, I've been informed". Lets say you havent claimed copyright on your "works of art" (pictures, texts you create), by signing TOS - more often than not - companies now claim that right, before you can. Lets say a company doesnt want you to sue them on the basis of messing up, and deleting all your stuff by accident - they write up paragraph that says - as soon as you upload something, ownership rights of that newly created copy get transfered to the company, and you dont own jack. Then they usually put in a paragraph that says - they can terminate the contract anytime, for whatever reason - leaving you in the dust.

Those things are not LAWs. Those are contractual agreements, that are supposed to prevent you to sue them for anything they provide, or do - as a "customer". If there are laws against stuff in that TOS/EULA (and there almost certainly are - almost every time) - they override whatever is claimed in the EULA.

The thing is, some aspects of your lifes are not governed by laws - because the state/nation sees you as adults that can make informed decisions on their own. (Haha.)

This DOESNT mean, that a EULA can be used, to "sign" away rights you already have gotten. By buying products (the ownership thing), I'm sad to inform you - you get certain rights, at the moment you fully buy the product. Those are yours - and most often, not easily transferable. Especially not with a blanket contract, thats hardly legally binding under any scrutiny - and that almost no one reads.

The ONLY thing that can happen if you dont confirm to a EULA is "termination of service". Thats it. Also you cant sue on the basis, that you havent been told stuff, where an actual agreement between the two contractual parties is required - because by signing a EULA you have. Thats it.

This doesnt take away your ownership rights of products, this doesnt take away your legal rights as a citizen.

Also - you dont have to sign a EULA/TOS to use a product. Because of a little thing called "implied consent is illegal": Meaning - if you bought a product, and the company then said - you should have known, that with buying it comes a contract, before you can use it, thats illegal.

Consent has to been given freely. And not giving it, can not take away all that you bought the product for.

I dont know how Amazon gets away with doing so - but thats a thing.

Companies tried that with games (By unwrapping the shrinkwrap, you agree to the contract that... That didn't fly and was declared illegal, at least where I am from.)

Its also not true, that you HAVE TO SIGN A EULA/TOS - with most tech products. In fact the opposite is the case.

Most products you can use without giving out your email address or signing up for an account. This is true for. All consoles, most phones, all electronic gadgets, ... And it has to be because of this "implied consent is illegal" thing. Companies, can not sell you stuff, than rope you into a contract to use it - saying, you should have known better.

How they get you - is by telling you - if you make account, and use cloud service, you get "most easy", "best service", "more service access" and "some free stuff".

And you'll eat that up every time.

That doesnt mean, that ownership rights dont exist anymore though - that only means, that you buy the stuff that you explicitly cant own anymore - because you are buying a license, or a subscription, or... - anything BUT an actual product.


//

Also - I don't know what person dragged in "the piracy outfits in my town get raided once in a while" into this "opinion sharing fest" - but all this about device hacking being legal - doesnt mean that piracy all of a sudden is legal.

Unlicensed distribution of stuff you don't own, is still a crime.

Also I'm astonished how bad the ratio in here is between people with any sort of knowledge whatsoever - and the others that seem to think, that feels should govern what they have to broadcast to the world.

Why don't you just not say - what you feel, if the chances are good, that its outright BS; because you dont know anything on the topic?

The examples are everywhere in this thread. If you are not all teens who just got smartphones, and skipping school - this should not be happening. People fundamentaly should understand how the "tech world" around them works. So they can navigate it. Apparently they dont.

Hacker feels bad, feels like illegal.
Piracy feels like funs, feels like "rebelling".
Guy that sold me piracy stuff, also says he is "leet hacker" - so both suddenly become the same.
People thinking, that they dont have any ownership rights over stuff they buy in actual stores anymore.
People thinking that the act of hacking (= analyzing stuff, maybe rewriting permission (you know - like every PC admin (= your dad) does every day?) is illegal.
People thinking, that they have to sign TOS/Eulas to use products they own.
People thinking, that Eulas can sign aways rights they have already been granted...

There is a bunch of misinformation in this thread, for no real reason, other than people finding the need to broadcast whatever they feel about stuff they dont know.

I'd suggest stopping that - but, you probably wouldnt - so i guess, have fun!?

 

[notimp]

There isn't really a single answer for this question. It all depends on the country you live in. "Console hacking" is usually considered a grey area.

And thats the BS response you give, when you dont want to do or show anything, but keep things ambivalent.

We have already established that:

- TOS/EULAS arent "laws", and also cant be used to "sign away rights, you already have".
- Product hacking is legal in the entire US, and probably has been for as long as the concept existed.
- Property rights are not "just gone", because you don't leave the house to buy games anymore, and only ever spend money on subscriptions and usage permissions. Thats just an individual choice you are making.

So why do we have to go back to "yes, but its so hard - its probably different in many countries" as the basis of discussion?

Its like some people prefer to stay in an uninformed bubble, because its more fun?

 

[YOUCANTSTOPME]

Its like some people prefer to stay in an uninformed bubble, because its more fun?

Didn't realize we had an international lawyer on hand. /s

 

[kingaz]

Holy crap, seeing a lot of misinformation in this thread.

CONSOLE HACKING (i.e. homebrew, cfw, etc) IS ILLEGAL UNDER U.S. LAW.

The problem comes not from EULAs, but from the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Here is the relevant section.

Basically, you can't circumvent a measure that effectively controls access to a work. This is very broad wording, and essentially relates to anything which could be construed as a barrier between you and the code you're trying to get to. However, the Librarian of Congress can grant exemptions to this section, and it has done so to make jailbreaking phones and tablets legal in the U.S. But they have explicitly refused to do so for gaming consoles because the specter of piracy outweighed the potential consumer benefits in the eyes of consumers.

Source for the curious.

So yeah, y'all need to stop making legal claims without knowing what you are talking about.

Edit: To clarify, just because something is illegal doesn't mean that the law is always enforced. Limited resources and all that. But if a company's legal team wants to rattle their sabres, or a bored prosecutor wants to score some brownie points, it's on the books. Also, I have no idea what the situation in other countries. I live in the US, so that's what I know.

 

[Absintu]

Holy crap, seeing a lot of misinformation in this thread.

CONSOLE HACKING (i.e. homebrew, cfw, etc) IS ILLEGAL UNDER U.S. LAW.

The problem comes not from EULAs, but from the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Here is the relevant section.

Basically, you can't circumvent a measure that effectively controls access to a work. This is very broad wording, and essentially relates to anything which could be construed as a barrier between you and the code you're trying to get to. However, the Librarian of Congress can grant exemptions to this section, and it has done so to make jailbreaking phones and tablets legal in the U.S. But they have explicitly refused to do so for gaming consoles because the specter of piracy outweighed the potential consumer benefits in the eyes of consumers.

Source for the curious.

So yeah, y'all need to stop making legal claims without knowing what you are talking about.

Edit: To clarify, just because something is illegal doesn't mean that the law is always enforced. Limited resources and all that. But if a company's legal team wants to rattle their sabres, or a bored prosecutor wants to score some brownie points, it's on the books. Also, I have no idea what the situation in other countries. I live in the US, so that's what I know.

fucking lobby system u guys have there...

 

[notimp]

Read exemption (f) and exemption (j).

Dont use big fonts, if you give me a minute - Ill copy/paste the relevant sections in here.

Freaking millenials refusing to read stuff already posted....
--

(f)

Reverse Engineering.-(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A) [= circumventing technical means of access prevention], a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.

(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title.

(3) The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section.

(4) For purposes of this subsection, the term "interoperability" means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged.

(j)

Security Testing.-

(1) Definition.-For purposes of this subsection, the term "security testing" means accessing a computer, computer system, or computer network, solely for the purpose of good faith testing, investigating, or correcting, a security flaw or vulnerability, with the authorization of the owner or operator of such computer, computer system, or computer network.

(2) Permissible acts of security testing.-Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), it is not a violation of that subsection for a person to engage in an act of security testing, if such act does not constitute infringement under this title or a violation of applicable law other than this section, including section 1030 of title 18 and those provisions of title 18 amended by the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 1986.

(3) Factors in determining exemption.-In determining whether a person qualifies for the exemption under paragraph (2), the factors to be considered shall include-

(A) whether the information derived from the security testing was used solely to promote the security of the owner or operator of such computer, computer system or computer network, or shared directly with the developer of such computer, computer system, or computer network; and

(B) whether the information derived from the security testing was used or maintained in a manner that does not facilitate infringement under this title or a violation of applicable law other than this section, including a violation of privacy or breach of security.

For our purposes (f) is relevant, but for some reson some media outlets recently celebrated (j) as "now you can legally hack your devices - dont know why - probably misinformed..

 

[Crusard]

Piracy is totally illegal in Spain, they just don't enforce the law. Just because you can get away with breaking the law, doesn't mean anything. Lots of criminals get away with it. In the US and UK there are people doing the same things every day too.

If you google for spain anti piracy law then there are lots of hits. As a part of the EU the spanish government has a responsibility to enforce copyright law. Letting people off by paying a media tax does not reimburse the people who have had their copyright infringed.

Yes, something like that, but is not hard as Germany piracy laws.
It's ilegal, but the police don't follow a citizen for piracy, only to those person making money for piracy.

Sorry if i explained it bad, english is not my native language.

 

[kingaz]

Read exemption (f) and exemption (j).

Dont use big fonts, if you give me a minute - Ill copy/paste the relevant sections in here.

Freaking millenials refusing to read stuff already posted....

The notion that subsections (f) and (j) apply here is silly. I hope you never have to defend this in a court of law, because you would get your ass handed to you by a lawyer who was even half awake.

 

[notimp]

The notion that subsections (f) and (j) apply here is silly. I hope you never have to defend this in a court of law, because you would get your ass handed to you by a lawyer who was even half awake.

Idiots never die.

Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title.

No - I don't see HOW this could be applied to circumventing technological measures, to run homebrew, or Linux or emulators on locked up consoles - except for the fact that it practically spells that out.

Hand me my anger rattle, I have to rattle for at least half an hour to make the emotion go away.

Again - one last time. There are previsions in that law - to exempt hacking for "trying to understand a system" and "trying to make it interoperable with other software", because otherwise - people would be prevented to learn how stuff they bought and own - works. This is not in the interest of the law, and never was.

The only people suggesting otherwise, are corporate lawyers - and people that think, that letting companies decide, what exactly the owner of a product they sold can do with a product is a thing they should be able to dictate. Most people in society dont.

Lawmakers dont. Thats why there are previsions to not make the DMCA law too overbearing (hey its at least an attempt..).
- Also, funny anecdote - most known Switch hackers are actually students who set through reverse engineering classes - most of them even recently. Strange, that the "reverse engineering" clause would be applicable to them - huh?

Damn, those things are too complicated... calling themselves hackers, because its cool, but doing reverse engineering, if you look at it... Its almost like you cant bring them to court for not using the terms you'd like them to, so it would be easier for you to identify what thy are doing...

 

[kingaz]

Idiots never die.

No - I don't see HOW this could be applied to circumventing technological measures, to run homebrew, or linux on consoles - except for the fact that it practically spells that out.

Hand me my anger rattle, I have to rattle for at least half an hour to make the emotion go away.

You are reading that far more broadly than it actually applies. Interoperability means the ability to exchange information with other programs. If we were to read it so broadly, then the DMCA would be completely hollowed out.

 

[smf]

Yes, something like that, but is not hard as Germany piracy laws.
It's ilegal, but the police don't follow a citizen for piracy, only to those person making money for piracy.

I don't believe there is a country in the world where the police are interested in citizens violating copyright, because it's not a criminal act.

Usually it's left up to the copyright holder to enforce, which they don't have the resources to do. This doesn't mean you have a right to do it, like you don't have the right to beat up a small kid just because they don't have the ability to fight back.

Again - one last time. There are previsions in that law - to exempt hacking for "trying to understand a system" and "trying to make it interoperable with other software", because otherwise - people would be prevented to learn how stuff they bought and own - works. This is not in the interest of the law, and never was.

Some countries have speeding laws which exempt you if the vehicle is being used as an ambulance. That doesn't mean you can always argue that you should be let off a speeding ticket. Only that you can use it as a defence in court. You really don't want to have to go to court.

If you're hacking your console and don't release anything you're fine. If you're releasing something that allows piracy then you're not, whether you intended piracy to be the outcome. This has already been covered by the PS3 court cases & it's why some hackers purposefully block things that could allow their legitimate use to be extended to illegal use.