Net Neutrality: what it is, and why you should care

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UPDATE: It's been voted for repeal. The FCC took Net Neutrality to a vote, and it was 3-2, in favor of repeal. This doesn't mean overnight upheaval, but things will certainly change, for better or worse, in due time.
If you've been on the internet at all the past week, there's a high chance that you've heard of something called "Net Neutrality", and you've also likely heard that there might be huge changes to your usage of the internet entirely. This post serves as a quick information briefing on what Net Neutrality is, what could happen if it's repealed, and the current events going on regarding it, and just general visibility to let the community in general be informed.

What is this Net Neutrality thing?



The basic definition of network neutrality is simple: all internet traffic is considered and treated equally. It was established just a bit under three years ago, in February 2015. It prevented companies like Comcast Xfinity and AT&T U-verse from speeding up, or slowing down certain sites based upon content. If you remember, back in July 2017, mobile provider Verizon admitted to targeting Netflix traffic, and specifically throttling it, negatively affecting customers' use of Netflix. Going back to 2014, there were also issues with Comcast customers, and, that's right, Netflix users, as connections to Netflix were notoriously slow. Netflix then entered a legal deal with Comcast, in order to have Netflix connections be faster than they previously were. The 2014 incident was pre-net neutrality, and shows that before the law was enacted, certain sites like Netflix were indeed slowed, and had to specifically bargain with large telecommunication monopolies like Comcast to get fair speeds out to their customers.

In April 2017, the chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), Ajit Pai, revealed that he had plans to repeal net neutrality. It's worth noting that Pai was once the Associate General Counsel of Verizon Communications, an incredibly high up position with an ISP, who we've stated before as having throttled websites in the past.

Pai's statements on the matter included saying such things as "[the government] would be able to stop micromanaging the internet" and that the FCC and internet service providers would simply have to be "transparent about their practices so that consumers can buy a service plan that's best for them". Shortly after, Comcast began vocally supporting these statements, claiming that government regulation of the internet has been harming innovation and investments of Comcast. David Cohen, the company's Chief Diversity Officer, said that "customers would be clearly informed on our practices [...] Comcast maintains that it does and will not block, throttle, or discriminate against lawful content".

Within the movement for repealing net neutrality, also comes with power being given to the Federal Trade Commission. The FTC would then have the ability to legally charge internet service providers that were not made clear to customers.

You may notice, that within any of the claims made by Pai or Comcast, that equal traffic was never made the focus, instead putting emphasis on making sure these monopolies must be clear and transparent about what they do, but never laying down any solid rules about what they need to be transparent about or why. And, of course, if the FTC were to go after AT&T, Comcast, Verizon, Time Warner, or other assorted companies for not being transparent, these legal cases would find themselves taking years to make their way to court, allowing for them to have their way with their customers until a definitive legal ruling. Therein lies the first batch of unease and controversy with the repeal.

In short, net neutrality is a fairly new regulation, which allows for equal traffic between all sites while using the internet. The chairman of the FCC and former higher-up of Verizon wants to repeal it, however. This would allow less government interference with ISPs, but would also allow those ISPs to do what they wish, so long as they're "transparent".

Does repealing Net Neutrality have any benefits?


Spoiler alert: not really

From the inception of the internet, and up until 2015, Americans have gone without net neutrality. Ajit Pai claims that should we not have net neutrality anymore, more rural areas would be able to have more companies and providers, and it would allow for more competition and choice for the consumer. However, these smaller companies would also have to fight it out with established services, with years of experience and infrastructure refinements.

As a side note, I've spent thirty minutes researching a potential "pro" argument. I've not found many that seem reasonable. I've listed in the spoiler tag below arguments from other websites and blogs.

Green Garage Blog: While net neutrality allows for freedom of speech, the downside is that almost anything can be posted to the internet. This means that the cruelest or insensitive information imaginable can end up on the internet, and as a result, it can cause a lot of problems from people that otherwise wouldn’t be prone to being under the microscope of criticism. This means that people can post cruel, intimidating, or other harassing messages and often get away with it thanks to free speech legislation. So it can be a very toxic environment for a lot of people to put up with.

Vittana: Reduced income from internet uses limits infrastructure improvements.
There are certain businesses and high-use individuals who consume large amounts of bandwidth every month. If net neutrality was removed, these high-level consumers would be asked to pay more for what they consume. This added income could then be used to upgrade the infrastructure of each internet service provider, making it possible for advanced fiber networks to be installed in many communities.

AEI: But in many instances, fast lanes, zero-rating, and the like benefit customers. In separate research, both former FCC Chief Economist Michael Katz (with Ben Hermalin) and I (with Janice Hauge) showed that fast lanes benefit small content providers in their attempts to compete with established industry leaders. AEI scholar Roslyn Layton has shown that elderly and low-income consumers benefit from zero-rating services.

Basically, the only benefit would be if America's current economy wasn't dominated by monopolistic ISPs. Below is an interview with Ajit Pai, showing his perspective.


Scrapping these rules, Pai told Reason's Nick Gillespie, won't harm consumers or the public interest because there was no reason for them in the first place. The rationales were mere "phantoms that were conjured up by people who wanted the FCC for political reasons to overregulate the internet," Pai told Gillespie. "We were not living in a digital dystopia in the years leading up to 2015."

If left in place, however, the Title II rules could harm the commercial internet, which Pai described as "one of the most incredible free market innovations in history."

"Companies like Google and Facebook and Netflix became household names precisely because we didn't have the government micromanaging how the internet would operate," said Pai, who noted that the Clinton-era decision not to regulate the Internet like a phone utility or a broadcast network was one of the most important factors in the rise of our new economy.

Pai also pushed back against claims that he's a right-wing radical who's "fucking things up."

"[I ascribe to] the very radical, right-wing position that the Clinton administration basically got it right when it came to digital infrastructure."


What happens if/when this gets repealed, and what does this mean for you?



The worst part of this, is that there's no definitive answer of what WILL happen, only what CAN happen. What has people concerned, though, is the potential things that larger ISPs can do with this new power, should net neutrality be repealed. Internet service providers could slow access to specific sites, and speed up others, in theory, others specifically being sites who pay ISPs for faster access, and those partnered or in contracts with ISPs. Websites like Google, Amazon, Reddit, Etsy, Netflix, and many more have all broadcast their support of net neutrality, stating that without these rules in place thanks to net neutrality, internet providers would become gatekeepers to the internet, restricting what customers can see. Without definitive government restrictions, these companies could be free to split access to the internet into packages, like cable TV, indeed making true on the intention of lowering the cost of internet access, but also making it more difficult and expensive to see all of the internet, as you can right now.

Likely, what will happen, though everything is up in the air, is that certain ISPs will utilize what's called "fast lanes" and "zero rating". Fast lanes are sort of like what we talked about at the start, with Netflix and Comcast. Currently, these fast lanes and zero rating are used with mobile phone data. AT&T customers can watch DirecTV (owned by AT&T) via their mobile data, without it counting towards their monthly cap. These rules could be applied to home internet as well; if you're a Comcast user, and you want to watch Hulu (owned by NBC-Universal-Comcast), maybe your connection to Hulu will be lightning fast, thanks to these theoretical fast lanes, and they won't go towards your Comcast monthly 1 Terabyte home cap. But what if you want to watch Netflix? Either Netflix will have much lower picture quality, or take a longer time to connect to. And if Netflix pays a fee, or gets into a contract once again with Comcast, then that potentially means that Netflix's increased costs move down to the consumer, who also now has to pay more for a service as well.

What can we do?



The only thing left to do is let your voice be heard. Social media has exploded without people decrying the impending repeal of net neutrality, and the negatives that it would entail, to the point of where the majority of Reddit has been plastered with net neutrality posts.

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The FCC will take the repeal to a vote on December 14, 2017. It is highly predicted that the repeal will pass, and net neutrality will come to an end. Millions have taken to the site "battleforthenet" and "callmycongress" to contact their local representatives and congressmen in order to show that American citizens don't want net neutrality destroyed.

You can learn more at the links below. Hopefully this is helpful in describing what net neutrality is, and why it shouldn't be taken away.

:arrow:Techcrunch: These are the arguments against net neutrality and why they're wrong

:arrow: Extra Credits: What a closed internet means

:arrow:Phillip DeFranco: The Internet is under attack

:arrow:Save the internet: What you need to know


:arrow:Ars Technica: RIP net neutrality
 
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So to bring the thread back on topic, are there any ideas, laws, or basic groundwork people would like to see in internet regulation? I think finding ideas that work for the internet is the first step to getting rules that appease everyone.
 
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I don't think it's a slippery slope to assume the people making illegal torrents would find sneaky ways to get around it. People do it on youtube. Whenever copyright trolls -- either for legitimate or illegitimate reasons -- file constant copyright strikes on a channel, people will just rename their shit to get around it in a way that's identifiable to humans who know about it and are looking for it specifically, but are not noticeable by machines and their algorithms. Shit, I'd do it myself in such a position.

This isn't even considering the fact that there's numerous VPNs out there which allow P2P file transfers, so I'd imagine should ISPs start being uppity little fuckers, people will just go to those. The irony in paying someone something to let them pirate stuff is hilarious though.
That's most likely true. If ISP's start to make torrents more expensive and/or slower to distribute, it will get investigated and altered just enough so the header is altered just enough so that it won't get flagged as such. The same will happen - but much faster - if they attempt to block it in large numbers.

Still, pirates have that adaptability that most internet users lack. My brother and his girlfriend happily pay each month their subscription fees for netflix (while I sigh yet again when popcorn time delivers out-of-sync Dutch subtitles). If their ISP was legally allowed to say "sorry...but seeing how much data is being used, we're going to be offering you the delivery of netflix as a more deluxe pack for extra cost", I'm sure they'll just pay that price.
 
That's most likely true. If ISP's start to make torrents more expensive and/or slower to distribute, it will get investigated and altered just enough so the header is altered just enough so that it won't get flagged as such. The same will happen - but much faster - if they attempt to block it in large numbers.

Still, pirates have that adaptability that most internet users lack. My brother and his girlfriend happily pay each month their subscription fees for netflix (while I sigh yet again when popcorn time delivers out-of-sync Dutch subtitles). If their ISP was legally allowed to say "sorry...but seeing how much data is being used, we're going to be offering you the delivery of netflix as a more deluxe pack for extra cost", I'm sure they'll just pay that price.
At this point I'm fairly certain that the package stuff won't happen. I'm making a stretch here but hear me out.

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Based on this line from the document, as well as this one

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I'm convinced that any form of "tiered packages" or what have you wouldn't be permitted as that would be discriminating against internet conduct and applications as the document says. With the outrage that'd come with it -- even with individuals like your brother and his girlfriend who wouldn't really care -- there'd be fighting and screeching at the FTC and FCC to investigate it and have something done about it, which they have the authority to do. This generously assumes that sort of practice would even be *allowed.*

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Please use punctuation. Run-on sentences are awful and you should feel awful for making them.

The FCC literally gives themselves and the FTC power to prosecute shit like throttling and possibly even tiered-packages by classifying such actions as an anti-trust violation, and anti-competitive practice, meaning the FCC and FTC are *BOTH* allowed to regulate these people.

Net Neutrality is not being killed. Just the shitty rules people who were scared of their own shadow like you put in place. We're keeping net neutrality as a philosophy, however.

-snip-
 
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I think despite the fact his post was blatantly off topic, it should be fair to restore the post I was quoting of computerusers, since that is technically on topic, just moronic.

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Hey can the people critical of the proposal explain to me why they want us to stay under Title II where the people who put it in place said ISPs are literally allowed to fuck with your content, and that the only thing stopping them is basically capitalism?

How can you tell me this proposal will result in awful shit when capitalism has kept them at bay for years?

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Hey @TotalInsanity4 you're the one so worked up about this still, can you tell me why we don't see any tiered-packages today despite the laws here, explain by this webpage https://readplaintext.com/why-the-fcc-s-net-neutrality-rules-could-unravel-cc26c6b96418 showing that ISPs at any time *RIGHT NOW* can just fucking ignore these laws and do all the shitty things you swear they're gonna do now?

There are loopholes in the Title II Order *RIGHT NOW* that say ISPs can just ignore the rules and do whatever they want, and you think the proposal is going to be *worse?*
 
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tfw the US postal service actually is a government-affiliated program that regulates itself heavily and has restrictions on what it can and can't do to protect the privacy of the people who take advantage of it, and that the money used for shipping actually covers cost of transport and storage of sensitive packages, particularly if it involves going through customs, and how that analogy has no affiliation in any way with how ISPs distribute content other than the fact that they have to put cable in the ground and that the content and size of a file shouldn't affect the average speed at which it gets to you unless the network is overloaded
Because the post office has to pay to deliver packages, but ISPs don't? Lol. I don't think you understand how their infrastructure works.

Did you know the government made it illegal for post office competitors (like UPS or FedEx) to charge less for postage than the government post office?
 
I think despite the fact his post was blatantly off topic, it should be fair to restore the post I was quoting of computerusers, since that is technically on topic, just moronic.

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Hey can the people critical of the proposal explain to me why they want us to stay under Title II where the people who put it in place said ISPs are literally allowed to fuck with your content, and that the only thing stopping them is basically capitalism?

How can you tell me this proposal will result in awful shit when capitalism has kept them at bay for years?

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Hey @TotalInsanity4 you're the one so worked up about this still, can you tell me why we don't see any tiered-packages today despite the laws here, explain by this webpage https://readplaintext.com/why-the-fcc-s-net-neutrality-rules-could-unravel-cc26c6b96418 showing that ISPs at any time *RIGHT NOW* can just fucking ignore these laws and do all the shitty things you swear they're gonna do now?

There are loopholes in the Title II Order *RIGHT NOW* that say ISPs can just ignore the rules and do whatever they want, and you think the proposal is going to be *worse?*
It's not the idea of title 2 thats the problem, which its intent was to stop ISP's from Blackmailing and Throttling smaller companies. Its the wording and ISP's finding ways around that. Which is exactly what I've been talking about this whole time.

Because the post office has to pay to deliver packages, but ISPs don't? Lol. I don't think you understand how their infrastructure works.

Did you know the government made it illegal for post office competitors (like UPS or FedEx) to charge less for postage than the government post office?

We need postal neutrality. It shouldn't matter what I ship or how far. I should be able to mail 50lbs of Christmas presents same as a regular letter. The government needs to shut down this pay-to-play system of favoritism and upcharges for faster delivery. Everyone deserves priority service and tracking without having to spend any extra. The post office isn't going to regulate itself!

You have the choice to pay less for Internet right now, or more for better speeds. If you only use the web for email and social media, then you can pay the cheaper 5 megabit per second option. If you want to stream HD video then you can pay the more expensive 50 megabit option. What type of Internet service speed you get is dependent on how much you pay.
 
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It's not the idea of title 2 thats the problem, which its intent was to stop ISP's from Blackmailing and Throttling smaller companies. Its the wording and ISP's finding ways around that. Which is exactly what I've been talking about this whole time.

No, I don't think you quite understand.

The people who put your precious Title II Order in place literally said themselves that an ISP is allowed to not adhere to the regulations of their own will, because it would not classify them as the catch all broadband service they proposed.

Let me repeat that for you.

If an ISP wants to disobey the rules, they can. The only reason they haven't is because no one would subscribe to them.
 
No, I don't think you quite understand.

The people who put your precious Title II Order in place literally said themselves that an ISP is allowed to not adhere to the regulations of their own will, because it would not classify them as the catch all broadband service they proposed.

Let me repeat that for you.

If an ISP wants to disobey the rules, they can. The only reason they haven't is because no one would subscribe to them.
If ISP's are allowed to not be classified as common carriers right, then how come they stoped throttling when we switched to title 2.
Capitalism existed back then even with title 1, yet they were throttling smaller companies.
 
If ISP's are allowed to not be classified as common carriers right, then how come they stoped throttling when we switched to title 2.
Capitalism existed back then even with title 1, yet they were throttling smaller companies.
Probably because of the fuckton of lawsuits. It wasn't until several years later that the FCC got on Comcast's ass about the bittorrent stuff back in the day, and that was out of their jurisdiction back then. So I'm gonna chalk it up to a lack of authority, something ELSE the proposal plans to resolve.

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Also throttling never stopped with Title II -- they just got sneakier with their loopholes.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/22/major-internet-providers-slowing-traffic-speeds
 
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Probably because of the fuckton of lawsuits. It wasn't until several years later that the FCC got on Comcast's ass about the bittorrent stuff back in the day, and that was out of their jurisdiction back then. So I'm gonna chalk it up to a lack of authority, something ELSE the proposal plans to resolve.

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Also throttling never stopped with Title II -- they just got sneakier with their loopholes.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/22/major-internet-providers-slowing-traffic-speeds
Ok thanks for the link. Im only here to try to learn about all this. So i'm questioning things.
 
Ok thanks for the link. Im only here to try to learn about all this. So i'm questioning things.
Perfectly understandable, and thank you so much for doing so. All I want out of this is for people to educate themselves before forming an opinion, and to stop pretending the FCC's plan is to kill net neutrality when net neutrality was killing itself.
 
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Probably because of the fuckton of lawsuits. It wasn't until several years later that the FCC got on Comcast's ass about the bittorrent stuff back in the day, and that was out of their jurisdiction back then. So I'm gonna chalk it up to a lack of authority, something ELSE the proposal plans to resolve.

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Also throttling never stopped with Title II -- they just got sneakier with their loopholes.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/22/major-internet-providers-slowing-traffic-speeds
Interesting. That right there is actually the post I've been looking for from you this whole time.

Let's say that at this point you haven't convinced me that Pai is trustworthy, nor that deregulation is the answer to the current issue, but that reform is necessary. I think we can both agree on that front, and leave it at that. And if there is indeed a failsafe built into the proposition, then I guess it wouldn't be awful. I'd rather NOT find out firsthand, but hopefully due process will take its course

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Because the post office has to pay to deliver packages, but ISPs don't? Lol. I don't think you understand how their infrastructure works.

Did you know the government made it illegal for post office competitors (like UPS or FedEx) to charge less for postage than the government post office?
Do you really think that ISPs pay for server space or access to websites?... they put cables in the ground that connect to their established backbone and that's it. Then they just dish out available bandwidth to all their subscribers
 
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Interesting. That right there is actually the post I've been looking for from you this whole time.

Let's say that at this point you haven't convinced me that Pai is trustworthy, nor that deregulation is the answer to the current issue, but that reform is necessary. I think we can both agree on that front, and leave it at that. And if there is indeed a failsafe built into the proposition, then I guess it wouldn't be awful. I'd rather NOT find out firsthand, but hopefully due process will take its course
but...it's been reform this whole time. Like for the past five pages I've been demonstrating it's a reform of the clearly flawed rules. It's giving FCC and FTC the power they didn't have in the past, making it so ISPs can't ignore the rules that are present now, and that the rules are sensible for consumers and fair for ISPs.

How this isn't the textbook definition of reform and how it's deregulation is beyond me but hey whatever at least you're saying something somewhat rational for once.
 
but...it's been reform this whole time. Like for the past five pages I've been demonstrating it's a reform of the clearly flawed rules. It's giving FCC and FTC the power they didn't have in the past, making it so ISPs can't ignore the rules that are present now, and that the rules are sensible for consumers and fair for ISPs.

How this isn't the textbook definition of reform and how it's deregulation is beyond me but hey whatever at least you're saying something somewhat rational for once.

How do you know ISPs won't try to use shady or other dodgy loopholes to screw people over even more? A lot of regulations and laws are under-enforced.
 
How do you know ISPs won't try to use shady or other dodgy loopholes to screw people over even more? A lot of regulations and laws are under-enforced.
you're gonna give me a concussion from how hard you make me facedesk dude

https://gbatemp.net/threads/net-neu...y-you-should-care.490063/page-37#post-7737035
https://gbatemp.net/threads/net-neu...y-you-should-care.490063/page-37#post-7737005
https://gbatemp.net/threads/net-neu...y-you-should-care.490063/page-37#post-7736942

Why you insist on such paranoia with evidence to the contrary in front of you is beyond me, but stop it. Get some help.
 
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you're gonna give me a concussion from how hard you make me facedesk dude

https://gbatemp.net/threads/net-neu...y-you-should-care.490063/page-37#post-7737035
https://gbatemp.net/threads/net-neu...y-you-should-care.490063/page-37#post-7737005
https://gbatemp.net/threads/net-neu...y-you-should-care.490063/page-37#post-7736942

Why you insist on such paranoia with evidence to the contrary in front of you is beyond me, but stop it. Get some help.

Okay. But you just literally said "also throttling never stopped with Title II -- they just got sneakier with their loopholes," so how would removing NN make that better?
 
Okay. But you just literally said "also throttling never stopped with Title II -- they just got sneakier with their loopholes," so how would removing NN make that better?
We're not removing NN you nincompoop. We're adding more regulations to it. Where the fuck did you hear that it was being removed?
 
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We're not removing NN you nincompoop. We're adding more regulations to it. Where the fuck did you hear that it was being removed?

Hey, way resort to using insults, dude, but aren't they repealing NN today anyways? And insult me one more time, and you're fucking blocked, so shut it.

Resorting to insults only implicates an inability to have a proper debate
 
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