Hardware What will happen with nintendo (?)

[Foxi4]

Oh, I'm not arguing with you on that. I wasn't professing that a weaker console is better, but rather the limitations actually can have positive effects to go along with the obvious negatives. Or perhaps on the other end, having a stronger console has it's obvious benefits, but there are also hidden problems that come with it, and maybe it's better for the industry to have different options that are actually different from each other rather than both trying to do the same thing.

What you're implying is that Xenoblade would potentially be a worse game if it was released on better hardware which I have to contest - it would either be the exact same game or it'd be better due a smaller ammount of limitations, at least theoretically. I agree that there's a great number of distractions when you have very capable hardware, but keep in mind that for every Xenoblade on the Wii there's two Fallout: New Vegas or Skyrim's on the XBox 360, PlayStation 3 or PC which are equally spacious if not bigger. Less time spent on optimization gives you more time to spend on graphics - everything equalizes in the development schedule.

That, and... well... I didn't really "like" Xenoblade - I find the game to be a complete yawnfest. Being long doesn't automatically make the game "good" - this is the problem of most JRPG's. It's almost the genre standard to drag basic story for hundreds of hours for no reason, resulting in a game in which nothing really happens. Take out the unnecessary, pointless dialogue, grinding, fetch quests and random encounters and you end up with a shell of a game... but of course that's just my opinion - tastes will be tastes.

It's not a new engine. It's just modified/tweaked from the Modern Warfare 1 engine

You mean Modern Warfare 3. Unless you really want to go back to the roots, in which case you end up with the good old idTech. There's nothing weird in updating an engine periodically and IWEngine is a prime example of that.

 

[mysticwaterfall]

Just like SEGA, Atari, Commodore, SNK, NEC or Bandai before them... Wait, those companies no longer manufacture consoles...

The second rule after "never say never" is "never say always" - scraps are not always sufficient to go around and there's no such thing as "too big to fall" - repeatedly disappointing your customers leads to losing them, no matter how big your legend is.

Sega burned its fan base and developers by releasing too many addons and consoles in too short a time. They burned retailers and developers with the Saturnday fiasco. I could go on.

Atari made too many stupid decisions to even list.

SNK made a machine that cost 600$ and had 120-200$ games.

NEC, I'll give you that one. They were immensely popular in Japan but could never adapt to the changing trends.

Now all that being said, I'm not going to just blindly say that the Wii U isn't in a bad spot right now. Because it admittedly is. But Nintendo will keep pressing on and do whatever it takes to make the console a successes. Look at the 3ds. It took some drastic actions, but its doing fantastic now. Now certainly, the Wii U will not have that great a boost I would imagine. But another gamecube level of sales won't kill Nintendo.

Has Nintendo made mistakes? Yes. They have poorly marketed the system so that the general public has no clue why they should buy one. Ironically, the best uses of the gamepad have been shown off in 3rd party titles (imo, anyways) and a lot of games have no clue what to do with it. Not to get started with the various 3rd party mistakes dating back many years.

As long as they sell enough to make a little profit, they will keep making systems and games. Is Guild right that they could be handheld only? Possibly. But they're certainly not going to throw in the towel just yet.

 

[grossaffe]

What you're implying is that Xenoblade would potentially be a worse game if it was released on better hardware which I have to contest - it would either be the exact same game or it'd be better due a smaller ammount of limitations, at least theoretically. I agree that there's a great number of distractions when you have very capable hardware, but keep in mind that for every Xenoblade on the Wii there's two Fallout: New Vegas or Skyrim's on the XBox 360, PlayStation 3 or PC which are equally spacious if not bigger. Less time spent on optimization gives you more time to spend on graphics - everything equalizes in the development schedule.

If Monolith had spent the kind of money to get Xenoblade to look like Skyrim, I believe they'd have lost boatloads of money as it is more of a niche game than Skyrim which had a broad audience and thus sold millions of copies. Are there any comparable JRPGs you could point to? (not meant to be argumentative, actual curiosity)

edit: And I want to correct you that my assertion isn't if it was released on another platform, but rather if it was developed with another platform in mind. A small but important distinction, because it would affect their design decisions as they are creating it; it's not designed in a vacuum and then stuffed onto a platform.

 

[GBA rocks]

Nintendo will be "doomed" (to me) when it will stop being Nintendo internally (in terms of corporate culture).
Like, doing stuff pundits and forum users suggest on a daily basis (licensing games to other platforms, building big hot noisy black RROD boxes with current-gen graphic specs and playing-it-safe-gamepads like Sony and MS, and so on). That's un-nintendo. That's 90s dark ages Apple stuff. Nintendo's got its "steves jobs" still in place, no risk of going through such a dark age.

Just like Apple, it's a fact of life they have the potential to turn the tide overnight, and YOU won't see it coming. God knows what's being tested in Nintendo R&D labs this very moment. Will the Wii U be a "meh" generation for nintendo? We'll see in 5 years. But Nintendo won't be doomed until it's stripped of its SOUL. The attention to details, the design of first party games, the "old fashioned toy company" feeling, and so on. Apple OSX has been in "happy 7% share" status for years. Boo effing hoo. Who cares. Maybe the next nintendo handheld will pay for the Wii U, like iphones pay for mac development these days.

What's important is not straying from their own corporate culture. No pokemon games on smartphones, sorry.

Props to the "underdog" (if even) Nintendo and let them do their thing until they have breath/cash. That is, indefinitely, as far as their current money stash is concerned.

 

[Foxi4]

SNK made a machine that cost 600$ and had 120-200$ games.

You're forgetting about the popular NeoGeo Pocket and NeoGeo Pocket Color.

But yes, as I said, repeatedly disappointing a customer leads to losing said customers - there's only so much disappointment one can withstand before turning away. I'm not saying that Nintendo has a noose on its neck because of the Wii U and that this is the end of the road for them - far from it. What I'm saying is that mistakes were made and now effort should be put into minimizing the fallout.

If Monolith had spent the kind of money to get Xenoblade to look like Skyrim, I believe they'd have lost boatloads of money as it is more of a niche game than Skyrim which had a broad audience and thus sold millions of copies. Are there any comparable JRPGs you could point to? (not meant to be argumentative, actual curiosity)

Your point of view depends on your location - Skyrim is very much a niche game in Japan and other areas of Asia, as most western RPG's are. Conversly, we find JRPG exotic... dang, it's almost as if occident and orient were... things! As for JRPG's with a similar budget, Final Fantasy XIII took about 80 million bucks to develop, so there you have it - there are expensive JRPG's out there.

edit: And I want to correct you that my assertion isn't if it was released on another platform, but rather if it was developed with another platform in mind. A small but important distinction, because it would affect their design decisions as they are creating it; it's not designed in a vacuum and then stuffed onto a platform.

You'd be surprised how many things are completely platform-independent. Not to look too far for examples, OpenGL code looks pretty much exactly the same on each and every platform you could imagine but it will work differently depending on whether or not you meet obstacles - this is where optimization comes into play. That aside though, as I said, when the game is developed specifically with one platform in question, the limitations are less painful but still present.

 

[mysticwaterfall]

Nintendo will be "doomed" (to me) when it will stop being Nintendo internally (in terms of corporate culture).
Like, doing stuff pundits and forum users suggest on a daily basis (licensing games to other platforms, building big hot noisy black RROD boxes with current-gen graphic specs and playing-it-safe-gamepads like Sony and MS, and so on). That's un-nintendo. That's 90s dark ages Apple stuff. Nintendo's got its "steves jobs" still in place, no risk of going through such a dark age.

Just like Apple, it's a fact of life they have the potential to turn the tide overnight, and YOU won't see it coming. God knows what's being tested in Nintendo R&D labs this very moment. Will the Wii U be a "meh" generation for nintendo? We'll see in 5 years. But Nintendo won't be doomed until it's stripped of its SOUL. The attention to details, the design of first party games, the "old fashioned toy company" feeling, and so on. Apple OSX has been in "happy 7% share" status for years. Boo effing hoo. Who cares. Maybe the next nintendo handheld will pay for the Wii U, like iphones pay for mac development these days.

What's important is not straying from their own corporate culture. No pokemon games on smartphones, sorry.

Props to the "underdog" (if even) Nintendo and let them do their thing until they have breath/cash. That is, indefinitely, as far as their current money stash is concerned.

Agreed indeed. In the 90s, I never would have thought Apple would have been a company of consequence today. The OS was stagnant, the hardware was unweidly, and Windows was hitting its stride. The writing was on the wall.

Then boom - OSX, IPad, IPhone, Ipad... and Apple is a major player again.

 

[grossaffe]

Your point of view depends on your location - Skyrim is very much a niche game in Japan and other areas of Asia, as most western RPG's are. Conversly, we find JRPG exotic... dang, it's almost as if occident and orient were... things!

While true, the West is a much larger market than the East, so if a game does not appeal to western audiences, it can't afford such large budgets.

As for JRPG's with a similar budget, Final Fantasy XIII took about 80 million bucks to develop, so there you have it - there are expensive JRPG's out there.

I was talking more about JRPGs with similar size and scope rather than budget alone. Also, everything I've read about FFXIII is that it's a pure graphics-fest with little gameplay/story value to it and the franchise is basically living off of it's name and the audience captured by previous games.

You'd be surprised how many things are completely platform-independent. Not to look too far for examples, OpenGL code looks pretty much exactly the same on each and every platform you could imagine but it will work differently depending on whether or not you meet obstacles - this is where optimization comes into play. That aside though, as I said, when the game is developed specifically with one platform in question, the limitations are less painful but still present.

I'm not really speaking from a coding perspective, but rather how you approach making the game based on your limitations. With the graphical limitations, the money in the budget that otherwise would have been dumped into greater poly-count models or higher res textures can go into creating more models, more textures for a larger, more diverse world, or money that can be put into further developing the story or other elements.

Now as it is right now with the game already made, they could take the code and port it to a more powerful console and it would be the same game, but that is because of the design decisions they made based on the first console.

 

[squablo]

I would like to first tip my hat to the level of intelligent discussion in this thread. Good job guys. I guess my main concern is this. I'm just not seeing developers doing anything other than presenting the same games we have been playing for years, but just with better graphics. It's just not enough. We all know why the are making Halo 12 and Call of Duty 47, and that's because it's financially safer to keep puking out sequel after sequel than to take a chance with a new IP or new idea.

Microsoft pitched their vision, and we answered. We're they trying to bring something new to the table? Yep, it just wasn't what we wanted, or so I thought. Now we get an Xbox360 with better graphics. PS4? It's just better graphics with network capabilities that it should have had 6 years ago. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh here, and over generalizing, with a slice of sarcasm, but I think you guys know where I'm going here.

Nintendo has never been afraid to take chances with its hardware, and that's where real innovation comes from. Fearlessness. They have made some bad decisions in the past, and with the WiiU, but that gamepad is awesome, and I have even said that I wish I had one for my Xbox 360 (sorry SmartGlass, but you suck) So much innovation has come from Nintendo, and that is why I support them. Their marketing is lousy, so I do what I can to promote the WiiU. Not because I own one (I own around 35 different gaming hardware systems from the Atari 2600 to current) but because I seriously believe the gamepad is a great idea, and a great hardware addition. If it were not, then Sony and Microsoft wouldn't be talking about this "second screen" business all the time. In fact, in terms of judging a next gen system by how much it has improved from its predecessor, then I would say WiiU is more next gen than either Xbox One or PS4. I will eventually buy both PS4 and Xbox One, after the "pay to beta test our new hardware" period is over, but that's because I'm a collector, not because I'm impressed by their new offerings.

 

[ShadowSoldier]

You mean Modern Warfare 3. Unless you really want to go back to the roots, in which case you end up with the good old idTech. There's nothing weird in updating an engine periodically and IWEngine is a prime example of that.

Are you sure it's Modern Warfare 3? Wait, isn't Modern Warfare 3 engine just a modified MW1 engine? Oh well, doesn't matter, lets be honest, the Call of Duty games need a whole new engine, not just tweaked/modified. I always thought the graphics and look the engine gives off is just too damn weird.

 

[Ray Lewis]

Marketing and PRICE DROP are necessary. Sometimes you take a short term loss to get a larger "base" for sales. "Wii U, 12/20/2013-12/30/2013, $250, includes...(insert game)." I keep thinking something like this will be needed. If units are out there even with a few good games, the POTENTIAL to milk that will go up I would imagine. I know Foxi4 and others will rip this up some how BUT my gut believes this. I would have started Black Friday. They obviously run THEIR business.

If people see improvements over Wii/3DS, even some compatibility with 3ds in certain ways, maybe that might make it more appealing. Seriously, I see game ads for WII AND WII U!!! In stores, they are next to each other. I did see a small chart like a PC comparing the Wii U to a Wii. How many parents will care to look at that? Only people interested in the "latest and greatest" specs will care based on marketing trends. Nintendo does bomb ads on children's channels though. Show how kids can play while the family watches football or something. I realized that shows a practical use after I let my son play NSMB for Wii the other day.

I think Sega had one idea right and Sony seems to follow it without the same phrasing, "Welcome to the next level." With Genesis it seems a LOT of my friends had one while I had the SNES. I had the N64 while many friends had a PSX. I bought a PSX also--because of Nintendo exclusives. I keep coming back to the price. Pull Wii units out, or at least change the presentation. I believe they should have done this before. I think once the major games are out and the "iron starts to cool", sales taper down...you then cut it and push your new toy. Good points I've read so far (stopped a few pages ago and had to reply. interesting points. Nintendo has survived for a long time, the real question I believe is can their business model work THIS TIME and can it continue? I don't know this time....

 

[blaisedinsd]

From what I have read my understanding is that Nintendo has tons of cash and historically in the game console era has always made money except for the last 2 years and that was said to be largely because of currency exchange rates and slowing wii sales.

The financial news had improved from the first year and not gotten worse. Sure the wii u has struggled so far and Nintendo has not done a great job with it it's first year.

I don't see this as a big deal. Wii U has an improved game library now with more great games lined up for next year. I don't expect it to approach wii levels but I think the software will At least make it profitable.

My understanding is that both xboxes have not been profitable overall for Microsoft. Sony has way worse cash problems than nintendo and also lost money overall on PS3.

If I am mistaken I would like to know, but considering all that I don't think Nintendo is the console maker we need to be worried about. What we should be worrying about is if xbone and Ps4 will even have successors.

 

[the_randomizer]

Why do these thread keep being made again? When was this IGN?

Why do these shit threads keep on being made again? I'm actually very curious myself, but they never seem to end well and people are continually bitching about Nintendo not being as godlike as Sony and Microsoft (I mean, those two NEVER make mistakes), amirite? Since when we become IGN?

 

[jalaneme]

i agree the gamepad is solid and one of a kind, why do you think sony and microsoft copied them?

as for nintendo i am not sure why everyone is screaming doom and gloom (everywhere i go it's the same, major news sites are not helping at all), they have been around the longest, more than sony and microsoft combined i am sure they know what they are doing and can handle the situation, they have a good software library this Christmas and smash bros + mario kart coming around the corner soon, people shouldn't worry so much.

 

[the_randomizer]

i agree the gamepad is solid and one of a kind, why do you think sony and microsoft copied them?

as for nintendo i am not sure why everyone is screaming doom and gloom (everywhere i go it's the same, major news sites are not helping at all), they have been around the longest, more than sony and microsoft combined i am sure they know what they are doing and can handle the situation, they have a good software library this Christmas and smash bros + mario kart coming around the corner soon, people shouldn't worry so much.

It's the internet, people are going to cry wolf regardless That, and self-entitlement and being a whiny turd will do the trick too

 

[ShadowSoldier]

i agree the gamepad is solid and one of a kind, why do you think sony and microsoft copied them?

as for nintendo i am not sure why everyone is screaming doom and gloom (everywhere i go it's the same, major news sites are not helping at all), they have been around the longest, more than sony and microsoft combined i am sure they know what they are doing and can handle the situation, they have a good software library this Christmas and smash bros + mario kart coming around the corner soon, people shouldn't worry so much.

I'm one of the biggest Nintendo fans, and I've defended the WiiU countless times, but with one year passing, I'm starting to wonder if Satoru Iwata doesn't know what he's doing.

I mean let's be honest, Nintendo is and always has been about introducing new ways to play games. And I love the GamePad. And I think all the other people who have a WiiU understand what Nintendo was going for with it. But at this point, I'm starting to question Nintendo, mainly Iwata.

Could they have made the console stronger? Definitely. Which brings me to Foxi's and mine conversation about there's a chance Nintendo is being taken advantage of with sticking with manufacturer of the AMD processor. They've been together for how long? I mean, Sony is paying roughly 390 bucks to make a PS4. Even if Nintendo was to make a console that wasn't nearly as strong but still stronger than what the WiiU is, they should. Why is it costing Nintendo so much to make a WiiU?

Their handheld needs no improvement, but their home console does. And I don't think Iwata knows what to do to fix it. There are some great games that take use of the GamePad (from my own experience); games like ZombiU (fuck your pause bitch! STAY IN THE GAME!), Lego City Undercover, Rayman Legends... but Nintendo has done very little to keep the interest of the developers afloat.

I want the WiiU to succeed I really do. Nintendo has to show how to do it, what can be done for it, and give us that "ONLY ON NINTENDO" experience that we expect from them. Otherwise, the WiiU is destined to fail.

And for the people who are saying that the WiiU will be dead within a year, won't make it another year, or that Nintendo will release a stronger console... that is the worst possible situation for Nintendo. The worst decision they could do now is release a new console so soon with stronger specs. It'll give their investors huuuuge doubt.

But honestly, imo, when Nintendo was around the 80's, they were the family system. Same with the SNES, and N64. But people who grew up with Nintendo, wanted Nintendo to grow up with them, and that's just not gonna happen. That's like asking Disney to make a serial thriller movie or something. That's not who they are.

 

[blaisedinsd]

Releasing a stronger console soon would be bad because of consumer confidence.

A big reason I bought the wii u is because I knew it would be supported for several years with great nintendo games. If they abandon it and announce a new console next year I would be kind of pissed.

I believe Nintendo is fine not competing directly with the Microsoft and Sony consoles. GameCube was the last time they really tried that and I feel that defeat was largely due to image. The mature games audience is the bigger market and family image is not cool enough to win it over. Heck even incredible exclusive Resident Evil titles couldn't get the job done back then (although I think DVD playback was a big factor for ps2)They would have to remake their image entirely and who knows if doing that could even be successful. The more family oriented console is however a market they can continue to succeed in and what they should focus on.

Consumers are also very likely to own more than one console these days. It didn't used to be like that. Certain exclusive games can convince plenty of Sony and Microsoft owners to also have a wii u.

 

[calmwaters]

I'm one of the biggest Nintendo fans, and I've defended the WiiU countless times, but with one year passing, I'm starting to wonder if Satoru Iwata doesn't know what he's doing.

I mean let's be honest, Nintendo is and always has been about introducing new ways to play games. And I love the GamePad. And I think all the other people who have a WiiU understand what Nintendo was going for with it. But at this point, I'm starting to question Nintendo, mainly Iwata.

Could they have made the console stronger? Definitely. Which brings me to Foxi's and mine conversation about there's a chance Nintendo is being taken advantage of with sticking with manufacturer of the AMD processor. They've been together for how long? I mean, Sony is paying roughly 390 bucks to make a PS4. Even if Nintendo was to make a console that wasn't nearly as strong but still stronger than what the WiiU is, they should. Why is it costing Nintendo so much to make a WiiU?

Their handheld needs no improvement, but their home console does. And I don't think Iwata knows what to do to fix it. There are some great games that take use of the GamePad (from my own experience); games like ZombiU (fuck your pause bitch! STAY IN THE GAME!), Lego City Undercover, Rayman Legends... but Nintendo has done very little to keep the interest of the developers afloat.

I want the WiiU to succeed I really do. Nintendo has to show how to do it, what can be done for it, and give us that "ONLY ON NINTENDO" experience that we expect from them. Otherwise, the WiiU is destined to fail.

And for the people who are saying that the WiiU will be dead within a year, won't make it another year, or that Nintendo will release a stronger console... that is the worst possible situation for Nintendo. The worst decision they could do now is release a new console so soon with stronger specs. It'll give their investors huuuuge doubt.

But honestly, imo, when Nintendo was around the 80's, they were the family system. Same with the SNES, and N64. But people who grew up with Nintendo, wanted Nintendo to grow up with them, and that's just not gonna happen. That's like asking Disney to make a serial thriller movie or something. That's not who they are.

Satoru Iwata is the head of the company (the Japanese branch). He's only responsible for approving advertisements and games. The people under him give him advice on what they think he should do. So then I should hope the people under him know what their fans want and can give advice accordingly. If he doesn't get any input from them, then he has to make decisions on his own, which sounds scary to me.

And I like to say that if Nintendo has a hard time getting developers to rock their boat, then we, as the obsessively stubborn Nintendo fanatics (don't you talk shit about my Nintendo, bitch), should get developers to rock their boat.

And yes, I hope Disney doesn't make a sequel to Chucky or Saw. Or *shudders* Friday the 13th.

 

[trumpet-205]

Releasing a stronger console soon would be bad because of consumer confidence.

Sega went down the hill precisely because it burned consumer confidence with rapid release of Genesis, Saturn, and Dreamcast.

I believe Nintendo is fine not competing directly with the Microsoft and Sony consoles. GameCube was the last time they really tried that and I feel that defeat was largely due to image. The mature games audience is the bigger market and family image is not cool enough to win it over. Heck even incredible exclusive Resident Evil titles couldn't get the job done back then (although I think DVD playback was a big factor for ps2)They would have to remake their image entirely and who knows if doing that could even be successful. The more family oriented console is however a market they can continue to succeed in and what they should focus on.

GameCube (and Xbox) lost the race on 6th generation for couple reasons. The biggest reason was simply too late in the market. By the time GameCube hit the market PS2 was already well established. PS2's backward compatibility for highly successful PS1, wealth of games, and the ability to play DVD makes it a no brainier over other consoles.

 

[Jayro]

The Wii U sells just fine at my Walmart I work at, so these "poor sales numbers" are bullshit at best.

 

[ShadowSoldier]

Satoru Iwata is the head of the company (the Japanese branch). He's only responsible for approving advertisements and games. The people under him give him advice on what they think he should do. So then I should hope the people under him know what their fans want and can give advice accordingly. If he doesn't get any input from them, then he has to make decisions on his own, which sounds scary to me.

And I like to say that if Nintendo has a hard time getting developers to rock their boat, then we, as the obsessively stubborn Nintendo fanatics (don't you talk shit about my Nintendo, bitch), should get developers to rock their boat.

And yes, I hope Disney doesn't make a sequel to Chucky or Saw. Or *shudders* Friday the 13th.

Satoru is also the boss of the NA market too.

But even then, lets say his job just include advertisements and games, he's still doing a horrible job. Nintendo has this notion "lets market to twitter and YouTube! But the problem is those people who are seeing those ad's, are already fans of Nintendo. They need to get newspaper advertisements, TV ad's (they made some but they're so rare to see on TV).

Hell let's look at the Luigi's Mansion Dark Moon ad:



That is a damn good ad. That harkens back to the 90's days, and I along with countless others, LOVE IT!
Now look at the Super Mario 3D World tv ad:

Spoiler

What do we see? One person with some kind of controller, and 3 others with Wii Remotes? Well hot damn! Must be a new game for my Wii! I just have to get that GamePad controller and I'll be ready to go!

This is where Nintendo fails at advertising. Look at their Luigi commercial. You can clearly see that that game, CANNOT be done on the original DS.