Hacking Coding vWii 3-core support - everything you need to know.

[izzydeank]

Form coherent sentences; I cannot understand your writing. Please don't share your thoughts until you learn to help people who PM you to privately ask a few questions. We need bootmii to work for vWii is something we need. "It is a wall" means an obstacle to get around/through/over. Is this too complicated to comprehend? With this available there could be other options for Linux aside from a GC version that is limited. Why not take the 360 approach and release ways to recover, get keys needed, and have a hacked stock dash with auto-update disabled? Those are simple thoughts to follow Sven. I sent a PM somebody who presents as an "Expert."

--Is this difficult to read? Is this incoherent?

Ohh them fighting words. Go get'em Ray!

 

[sven42]

The funny thing is, is that people who want to create something for wii u or want to make homebrew for it, just can't code or don't know how to start unless they would know what steps they need to do or don't have enough experience yet.
Though people who may have the all the skills, aren't interesting or not showing up yet.
But yeah I also agree with Marcan that he wants people who want to make homebrew, start learning themselves how or what to do AND then they may get more support from f0f. ( with already some tips here and there)
Otherwise it's indeed like ps3 like sven42 said.

Let me try again then:
We neither have the time nor motivation to work on a homebrew SDK. Without a homebrew SDK releasing anything further is useless because it will not help homebrew in any way. A SDK is the very first thing you **need** to write homebrew.
If nobody with the required skills, time and motivation to write said sdk shows up you will not get homebrew on your wiiu.

And the first steps towards that SDK are already possible by just starting with the three cores.
So, again, releasing _anything_ more than this will not help homebrew at this stage in any way whatsoever.

Don't believe me? Answer this simple question then: What exactly would you be doing differently if we released the exploits required to run code on both processors in WiiU mode compared to what you can do now?

 

[izzydeank]

Let me try again then:
We neither have the time nor motivation to work on a homebrew SDK. Without a homebrew SDK releasing anything further is useless because it will not help homebrew in any way. A SDK is the very first thing you **need** to write homebrew.
If nobody with the required skills, time and motivation to write said sdk shows up you will not get homebrew on your wiiu.

And the first steps towards that SDK are already possible by just starting with the three cores.
So, again, releasing _anything_ more than this will not help homebrew at this stage in any way whatsoever.

Don't believe me? Answer this simple question then: What exactly would you be doing differently if we released the exploits required to run code on both processors in WiiU mode compared to what you can do now?

Nothing different. I'd still just be playing Mario. Is there a exploit that can help me beat bowser?

 

[goembario]

Let me try again then:
We neither have the time nor motivation to work on a homebrew SDK. Without a homebrew SDK releasing anything further is useless because it will not help homebrew in any way. A SDK is the very first thing you **need** to write homebrew.
If nobody with the required skills, time and motivation to write said sdk shows up you will not get homebrew on your wiiu.

And the first steps towards that SDK are already possible by just starting with the three cores.
So, again, releasing _anything_ more than this will not help homebrew at this stage in any way whatsoever.

Don't believe me? Answer this simple question then: What exactly would you be doing differently if we released the exploits required to run code on both processors in WiiU mode compared to what you can do now?

Yeah I know, if the exploit would be released now, I also wonder who of us (in this thread) can do something with it (maby some do but I have not seen a lot of wii coders here yet) I understand that you guys first want people to continue with what you guys already gave, in order to see if there are skilled people who can even make something for WiiU (right?)
Though, I'm no codder, I can see your reasons for doing this.

 

[sven42]

Apparently you can't.
Even if you had the WiiU mode exploit you'd still need to do the same exact work you have to do right now - get linux running on the three powerpc cores. you even need the memory race attack to bootstrap the powerpc.
If no one gets these steps done, the WiiU mode exploit will be completely useless.
"I don't have WiiU mode so I can't work on any WiiU homebrew" is just an excuse at this point...

Edit:
Just to emphasise this some more: This is no arbitrary challenge/test/whatever just to annoy you. Bootstrapping Linux on the Espresso *has* to be done for homebrew anyway.

 

[goembario]

Apparently you can't.
Even if you had the WiiU mode exploit you'd still need to do the same exact work you have to do right now - get linux running on the three powerpc cores. you even need the memory race attack to bootstrap the powerpc.
If no one gets these steps done, the WiiU mode exploit will be completely useless.
"I don't have WiiU mode so I can't work on any WiiU homebrew" is just an excuse at this point...

Edit:
Just to emphasise this some more: This is no arbitrary challenge/test/whatever just to annoy you. Bootstrapping Linux on the Espresso *has* to be done for homebrew anyway.

Well I think you just added some good information for the people who wanted more "directions". (If it wasn't clear enough)
It's up to the ones who can do something with this and have knowlegde of linux (I guess)

 

[izzydeank]

Apparently you can't.
Even if you had the WiiU mode exploit you'd still need to do the same exact work you have to do right now - get linux running on the three powerpc cores. you even need the memory race attack to bootstrap the powerpc.
If no one gets these steps done, the WiiU mode exploit will be completely useless.
"I don't have WiiU mode so I can't work on any WiiU homebrew" is just an excuse at this point...

Edit:
Just to emphasise this some more: This is no arbitrary challenge/test/whatever just to annoy you. Bootstrapping Linux on the Espresso *has* to be done for homebrew anyway.

So let me get this straight. You guys are testing us to see if we're interested enough? Then if we pass your release your already completed hack? Just fucking with ya. Anyone that doesn't understand yet, never will.

 

[goembario]

So let me get this straight. You guys are testing us to see if we're interested enough? Then if we pass your release your already completed hack? Just fucking with ya. Anyone that doesn't understand yet, never will.

No, as I see it, they actualy educating people in some sort of way.
It's fair that there should be atleast some people who are able to make or do something with the hints they have given, in order to build the homebrew community.
I would love to learn coding and take this "sort of" oppertunity, but at least I have to pass my exams first
(may I see that wrong.. well just ignore my existence)

 

[izzydeank]

No, as I see it, they actualy educating people in some sort of way.
It's fair that there should be atleast some people who are able to make or do something with the hints they have given, in order to build the homebrew community.
I would love to learn coding and take this "sort of" oppertunity, but at least I have to pass my exams first
(may I see that wrong.. well just ignore my existence)

Yeah I was jk. Good luck on your exams.

 

[Quincy]

God, at times like these I'd wish I had finished my study already, aplication developer in progress lol

 

[rednekcowboy]

You know what? I was thinking on this some last night. I might not be a dev of any kind but I've been around long enough in enough scenes to know bullshit when I smell it. I've seen time and time again, once well-respected teams have a big announcement about the next big thing and then nothing comes of it.

The same situation that is playing out here. They then come on and heckle and demean and challenge anyone who wants to step up but yet still refuse to do anything themselves. Eventually they quietly go away. You want to know why all of this happens? Because the "well-respected" team could not deliver on the announcement and gave up. Rather than be honest, they were worried about losing face in the hacking community so the came up with a lame ass bullshit excuse to try and cover their asses.

So far I've heard:

we don't want to enable piracy
the wii u is not good enough
it's too much work to build a new scene
there is not enough interest in the wii u
we don't have enough time
and new ones keep coming out as time passes

I call bullshit. I think f0f just couldn't deliver on the announcement and hype they caused. Not saying they aren't talented and all that but I also have been around long enough to know when something stinks and this is starting to smell so bad I can barely sit in the same room as my Wii U.....

Either that or they have a financial stake in not developing homebrew. Either way, the only time hackers stop hacking is when they either hit a wall they cannot surpass or are financially motivated to stop hacking.

 

[obcd]

Let's see if I understand things right.
One way of launching linux is using mini.
It provides a framework that runs on the arm core and can be seen as a simplified ios.
You could also compare it with the hardware drivers of a modern OS, exept that in the wii it runs on a separate arm cpu and uses IPC to exchange information between that ARM core and the main PPC.
Another way of launching it is using AHBPROT. This basically makes the arm memory region accessible to the PPC. Part of this memory region are the registers that control the hardware. Everything is running on the PPC with this approach. It's pretty much how homebrew on the wii using libogc is controlling the wii hardware.

Do we actually know which approach we need to start experimenting with multi cores?
How could a system benefit from the other cores?
Multi threaded programs use techniques to synchronise the different Threads running.
Apparently, something is broken on the multi core PPC approach that will make such synchronising difficult.

Do we even have linux PPC multi core kernel examples that can function as a guidance in such a design?
What is the best linux for wii we are having that could help in understanding things?

What do we gain once linux is running on it multi core? Can we use it as an easy way to experiment with the unknown hardware pieces? Should it function as the framework for a wiiu homebrew sdk?

Let's forget multi core linux as it's a far goal. What's the first one we should achive? We can do some register poking that get's the other cores running. I believe that's the pseudocode we got from Team f0f. Running what? How will we know they are running?
It looks like we need people with low level ppc knowledge. Besides those who designed libogc for the wii, who would qualify for this jobdescription?

Maybe the unavoidable large number of questionmarks in this Post explains how the team f0f members feel about our approach on the issue. Maybe some people who had the courage to read trough this till the end have some of the answers. The biggest problem is we don't need some, we need all off them. Lukily, sometimes pieces of the puzzle only find their place after others are placed.

With what piece of the puzzle should we start?

 

[Ray Lewis]

You know what? I was thinking on this some last night. I might not be a dev of any kind but I've been around long enough in enough scenes to know bullshit when I smell it. I've seen time and time again, once well-respected teams have a big announcement about the next big thing and then nothing comes of it.

The same situation that is playing out here. They then come on and heckle and demean and challenge anyone who wants to step up but yet still refuse to do anything themselves. Eventually they quietly go away. You want to know why all of this happens? Because the "well-respected" team could not deliver on the announcement and gave up. Rather than be honest, they were worried about losing face in the hacking community so the came up with a lame ass bullshit excuse to try and cover their asses.

So far I've heard:

we don't want to enable piracy
the wii u is not good enough
it's too much work to build a new scene
there is not enough interest in the wii u
we don't have enough time
and new ones keep coming out as time passes

I call bullshit. I think f0f just couldn't deliver on the announcement and hype they caused. Not saying they aren't talented and all that but I also have been around long enough to know when something stinks and this is starting to smell so bad I can barely sit in the same room as my Wii U.....

Either that or they have a financial stake in not developing homebrew. Either way, the only time hackers stop hacking is when they either hit a wall they cannot surpass or are financially motivated to stop hacking.

Still, nobody says why having nand read/write, keys, and a hacked stock dash is the wrong place to start. Otherwise, buy a wiikeyU and pirate away. If I had a dash that does it for me, and runs it all, then I could work through that way. Why would I have this idea? Oh, wait for it......keep waiting.....360 scene. Then it would eliminate control though. I like some messages, some guidance. Quincy has ideas and it appears Maxternal is MIA (missing in action). Cool ideas I read in another place Ninja How many people truly wanted to read/write their nand, lmfao? Still, nobody ever refutes or supports this. Other than consulting, give the information to get keys, maybe even the tools, disable auto updates, and let others build from there (or don't build). Not like you built the Wii U from scratch Sven, you guys "reversed it" and gained an understanding of it.

Reversing never works, just like the 360 scene remained only about firmware hacks and piracy Maxternal seemed to have ideas and is now MIA, now Quincy has ideas and Ninja has been a soldier all along.

 

[rednekcowboy]

Still, nobody says why having nand read/write, keys, and a hacked stock dash is the wrong place to start. Otherwise, buy a wiikeyU and pirate away. If I had a dash that does it for me, and runs it all, then I could work through that way. Why would I have this idea? Oh, wait for it......keep waiting.....360 scene. Then it would eliminate control though. I like some messages, some guidance. Quincy has ideas and it appears Maxternal is MIA (missing in action). Cool ideas I read in another place Ninja How many people truly wanted to read/write their nand, lmfao? Still, nobody ever refutes or supports this. Other than consulting, give the information to get keys, maybe even the tools, disable auto updates, and let others build from there (or don't build). Not like you built the Wii U from scratch Sven, you guys "reversed it" and gained an understanding of it.

Reversing never works, just like the 360 scene remained only about firmware hacks and piracy Maxternal seemed to have ideas and is now MIA, now Quincy has ideas and Ninja has been a soldier all along.

Getting a hacked dash is quite a ways away yet Ray. In order to have a hacked dash, you must be able to run unsigned code. In order to run unsigned code you have to have a way to inject that code.

 

[drmr]

I've been around long enough in enough scenes to know bullshit when I smell it.

I'm a bit worried. Smelling things that aren't there is never a good sign, medically speaking.

the "well-respected" team could not deliver on the announcement

What exactly did fail0verflow or any of its members announce, and what would that delivery you so clearly feel entitled to look like? Please elaborate.

 

[Ray Lewis]

Let's see if I understand things right.
One way of launching linux is using mini.
It provides a framework that runs on the arm core and can be seen as a simplified ios.
You could also compare it with the hardware drivers of a modern OS, exept that in the wii it runs on a separate arm cpu and uses IPC to exchange information between that ARM core and the main PPC.
Another way of launching it is using AHBPROT. This basically makes the arm memory region accessible to the PPC. Part of this memory region are the registers that control the hardware. Everything is running on the PPC with this approach. It's pretty much how homebrew on the wii using libogc is controlling the wii hardware.

Do we actually know which approach we need to start experimenting with multi cores?
How could a system benefit from the other cores?
Multi threaded programs use techniques to synchronise the different Threads running.
Apparently, something is broken on the multi core PPC approach that will make such synchronising difficult.

Do we even have linux PPC multi core kernel examples that can function as a guidance in such a design?
What is the best linux for wii we are having that could help in understanding things?

What do we gain once linux is running on it multi core? Can we use it as an easy way to experiment with the unknown hardware pieces? Should it function as the framework for a wiiu homebrew sdk?

Let's forget multi core linux as it's a far goal. What's the first one we should achive? We can do some register poking that get's the other cores running. I believe that's the pseudocode we got from Team f0f. Running what? How will we know they are running?
It looks like we need people with low level ppc knowledge. Besides those who designed libogc for the wii, who would qualify for this jobdescription?

Maybe the unavoidable large number of questionmarks in this Post explains how the team f0f members feel about our approach on the issue. Maybe some people who had the courage to read trough this till the end have some of the answers. The biggest problem is we don't need some, we need all off them. Lukily, sometimes pieces of the puzzle only find their place after others are placed.

With what piece of the puzzle should we start?

Great questions and points but maybe Sven would say that is meaningless. Seems to sum it up nicely. Maxternal began something, and we began to LOOK at Linux on the Wii as a sort of template. Maxternal has been missing from private conversation(s) and in threads it seems. Quincy has some ideas it appears. Ninja knows some Linux stuff and may have some debug tools if you ask (unless I had that confused). I mean well BUT do not like insults. Some PPC people would laugh at others who "Don't know shit" while some Linux people would laugh at Windows people for "Not knowing shit." Some reverse and are great at it...yet they come across (at least come across) as arrogant because eveyrone should see their vision. Lots of ideas but few experts. A lot of passion...many like to code and can interpret code yet they lack debugging skills.

A central plan of action and approach from a knowledgeable source WOULD be the best approach. Ninja said this a while back (to me). However, following the process from the beginning like f0f says they did is beyond most on here (that I have read). SDK, and the rest, sure that makes more sense now. I guess this is where it is at. Without a central plan to follow and experts to execute different parts it is a pipe dream. Obcd and Quincy now seem to have some thoughts and I know Ninja likes Linux angles and may have debug stuff (ask). My goal was to drum up interest and bring people into the talk. Hate, like, whatever else I had to do. Or, maybe consider the 360 approach but f0f is not there and won't be.

To be fair, Sven/Marcan/Comex have given some tips and directions. I could try to tell my 4 year old how Physics works and how he needs to learn some concepts to be able to solve for missing variables it just is not "In the cards", lmfao. "First, algebra, wait...add and subtract, multiplication, division, systems of equations,...now you can look at this situation and if you read it correctly then MAYBE you could tell me the solution."

 

[rednekcowboy]

I'm a bit worried. Smelling things that aren't there is never a good sign, medically speaking.


What exactly did fail0verflow or any of its members announce, and what would that delivery you so clearly feel entitled to look like? Please elaborate.

I don't feel entitled to anything, at all. They announced to the world that they were hacking the Wii U, hyped it up over a period of weeks and then announced they weren't going to work on it any longer (I simply elaborated on the "why" part of it). This is all over the web. If you were out of the loop or not around for that, perhaps you should get more informed.

I have not stated that I want anything from them nor have I stated that I deserve anything. I simply stated what transpired and my thoughts on it. Instead of throwing attacks at me about my thoughts, how about you contradict them so we can discuss it?

One thing people here have to learn about me is that I'm very direct. I don't play politics, I don't beat around the bush, I typically don't get upset, I just say what is on my mind at any particular given time.

Do I think f0f owes anyone anything? I don't know how I feel about that. Had they not been so public about what they were doing I wouldn't hesitate in saying that they don't owe anyone a damned thing. However they didn't do this. They knew full well what the hype they were pushing was going to do and the excitement it was going to create. Now they are complaining because people are upset that they pulled the plug. Well, there is a whole bunch of sayings that fit in this situation--You reap what you sow, you made your bed now lie in it, etc etc.

Do I blame people for being pissed. Absolutely not, however this is f0f's own creation, especially as of late with their "you're not worthy" attitude (which I believe is just another in a long line of excuses and that further strengthens the belief that they don't hold all the cards). I don't think that they "sold out" (though that seems to be the avenue for a hacker to go nowadays) which leaves only one conclusion--they got to a point and got stumped and couldn't figure out how to progress so they threw in the towel.

However rather than say this they say a whole bunch of other stuff, very little/none of which makes any sense, as to why they would start something, get everyone ramped up about it and then quit with the project unfinished.

FYI, it's not "entitlement" when someone announces what they are doing, then announces that they did it, then announces that they aren't going to give it to anyone/do anything with it. They should have kept their yaps shut if that was their plans. They created the "expectation" (different than entitlement) of release by the hype they, themselves generated.

 

[Ray Lewis]

I'll take this one. See all tweets by f0f and Marcan on twitter, some by Comex (public replies to others mostly), see the pictures presented, phrases, like "The Wii U is something we can all enjoy", the "hashes", saying stuff like release coming but too bored/fail to do it or however that was phrased. Stating output to the controller screen was not from a PC and so it was in Wii U mode (to prove code execution from Wii U side). Should I continue, you want sources? Next time you guys hack something just keep it quiet. 8 days, 30 days, A/B diagram...the TROLL on that diagram Rednek, if you can get the keys, read/write to nand, block auto-updates, then you have control and can execute unsigned sode as checks are removed.

In 360 crowd I wished homebrew would have come around more quickly, but it began with keys, ways to get them (like Xell), and ways to apply them and install a dash. Could be done INTERNALLY also once nand flashing tools came around BUT the "fall back" were hardware flashers. eMMC stuff is out and on wiiubrew.org. Search eMMC

So, yeah, it became too hard as porting linux became a pain and then give people a 2 ton car and say, "Lift it, maybe we will give you more if you impress us." Feels better, you "Gave people a chance after all" but with the connections you guys have, since you are all (f0f) so expert and coding is easy, it does seem like the easy win. Attention? Credit for what you showed to people but never gave, and so you want people to say, "Yeah, you have skills, it is tougher than it seems" then that is the easy part. Never gave any implication of a release though. Okay, I believe you

I'm a bit worried. Smelling things that aren't there is never a good sign, medically speaking.


What exactly did fail0verflow or any of its members announce, and what would that delivery you so clearly feel entitled to look like? Please elaborate.

 

[uyjulian]

Post deleted, I messed up :/

 

[rednekcowboy]

The more you argue, the less homebrew we get.

How do you figure that? Whether we discuss the situation or not, f0f still is not going to release anything--they have said so many times over.......I have a right to voice my opinions just as much as you have a right to voice yours. That's why there's an ignore system in place.

Just to expand on my comments above. Another reason that they may have stopped working on it is they got heat from someone to do so (though typically a group will say this outright). I will however also say that the main reason I bought a Wii U was because f0f was working on it. If they had not made that announcement, I most likely would have held off on purchasing until such a time that homebrew would be accessible. I'm sure I'm not the only one and while I still enjoy my system regardless, I'm sure I'm part of the minority that is in this group that bought the console because of f0f that is not upset about the whole situation.