Hacking and legality...

[lolzed]

So me and my friend were talking(or debating...) about hacking and stuff, particularly video game consoles.

So the main question is, is it legal or not to "hack" video game consoles, where does DMCA stand in, and what are our rights in terms of ownership to the console? Can we really modify the software?

PS. This is out of curiosity, hope you don't go too off topic on morality and such . Hopefully I'll be able to get some answers here

 

[HaniKazmi]

AFAIK its a very grey area
Hacking your own console is alright, but if you start distributing you start getting into muddy waters.

 

[mechadylan]

Google> Wiki DMCA> Sentence 2. "It criminalizes production and dissemination of technology, devices, or services intended to circumvent measures (commonly known as digital rights management or DRM) that control access to copyrighted works.

In other words, it is illegal to hack a game console in such a way as to convert it into a DRM circumvention device.

 

[nryn99]

i haven't read any of the ToA when you buy a console so i can't really say.
but i think it's because it's mostly you hack your system to play games you didn't buy. that legality comes into the discussion.

 

[trance]

The DCMA, in general, does cover the ability to create a backup for personal use. However, it is in the context of repair: a 'backup' can only be used in conjuction with the original hardware that it was created from.

Using it for another purpose (ie. different hardware, or virtually) constitutes a derived work, which requires authority from the data's original owner.
Not to mention, backup rights normally remain exclusive to the original owner, unless it is justifiable that the data will be lost to obsolescence.

 

[Rydian]

Precedent and such revolving around the "interoperability" is generally taken to mean that tweaking a system for your own private use is fine, and it looks like most companies accept they can't do anything about that core concept. I mean, the PRO CFW for the PSP is on google code, even.
http://code.google.com/p/procfw/

It's when you start using such things to interfere with services (such as some battle.net game hackers being sued) and pushing copywritten materials around that the companies can come after you from what I've seen.

 

[lolzed]

Precedent and such revolving around the "interoperability" is generally taken to mean that tweaking a system for your own private use is fine, and it looks like most companies accept they can't do anything about that core concept. I mean, the PRO CFW for the PSP is on google code, even.
http://code.google.com/p/procfw/

It's when you start using such things to interfere with services (such as some battle.net game hackers being sued) and pushing copywritten materials around that the companies can come after you from what I've seen.

So basically, homebrew and other stuff that aren't related to piracy fall into "interoperability" so it's legal?

 

[Rydian]

So basically, homebrew and other stuff that aren't related to piracy fall into "interoperability" so it's legal?

Not that generally... since the methods that enable homebrew almost always end up enabling piracy as well.

 

[lolzed]

So basically, homebrew and other stuff that aren't related to piracy fall into "interoperability" so it's legal?

Not that generally... since the methods that enable homebrew almost always end up enabling piracy as well.

But the methods of enabling "homebrew" (like HEN, bannerbomb/hackmii, and such) are legal right? The only time when the companies can actually sue you is when you use it for piracy purposes right?

 

[Rydian]

But the methods of enabling "homebrew" (like HEN, bannerbomb/hackmii, and such) are legal right? The only time when the companies can actually sue you is when you use it for piracy purposes right?

Again, I would not be that general. If it could allow piracy, the companies might use that as an excuse to sue.

 

[mechadylan]

I'm confused. OP asked about the legality of modifying a game console and is adding parts b, c, & d to the original question with regards to "piracy."

"So the main question is, is it legal or not to "hack" video game consoles (Yes, you can stick it in the microwave if you'd like. It's your property), where does DMCA stand in (The DMCA prohibits the creation of DRM circumvention devices; if you've 'hacked' your vg console to do so, you are in violation of said act.), and what are our rights in terms of ownership to the console? (See answer #1.) Can we really modify the software? (See answers 1 & 2)

 

[lolzed]

I'm confused. OP asked about the legality of modifying a game console and is adding parts b, c, & d to the original question with regards to "piracy."

"So the main question is, is it legal or not to "hack" video game consoles (Yes, you can stick it in the microwave if you'd like. It's your property), where does DMCA stand in (The DMCA prohibits the creation of DRM circumvention devices; if you've 'hacked' your vg console to do so, you are in violation of said act.), and what are our rights in terms of ownership to the console? (See answer #1.) Can we really modify the software? (See answers 1 & 2)

The question was if the software itself can be "hacked" since technically it's not yours :S

Read the rest to see why it went to piracy(a bit)

Rydian pretty much answered it anyway, thanks man

 

[Rydian]

Hacking it in general is not illegal, but that's like saying that using a knife is not illegal.

If you're cutting steaks for dinner, it's fine.

If you're cutting the governor's face off, it's not fine.

 

[mechadylan]

Sorry, Rydian but that's a bad analogy. A knife can be used for crimes whether it's modified (hacked) or not. And even if you were to engrave "Governor Face Slasher" on the handle, the crime would supercede the mod. A shotgun, on the other hand is legal to own and use for sport, recreation, etc. However, if you saw the barrel to half of it's original length and cut off part of the stock so as to create an easily concealed close range weapon it's illegal WAY before you ever decide to use it as such. We ALL possess "intent," but possessing "ability" is the real crime...unfortunately.

 

[jceggbert5]

If you don't install cIOS or cIOSCORP or anything that allows piracy, you're fine. [/sumOfThread]

 

[s4mid4re]

Sorry, Rydian but that's a bad analogy. A knife can be used for crimes whether it's modified (hacked) or not. And even if you were to engrave "Governor Face Slasher" on the handle, the crime would supercede the mod. A shotgun, on the other hand is legal to own and use for sport, recreation, etc. However, if you saw the barrel to half of it's original length and cut off part of the stock so as to create an easily concealed close range weapon it's illegal WAY before you ever decide to use it as such. We ALL possess "intent," but possessing "ability" is the real crime...unfortunately.

I don't think that's his point; Rydian is saying that the knife can serve two broadly different purposes (which also applies to hacking): using it as a tool to cut meat (hacking for the tweaks, homebrew, etc) vs. using it for murder (hacking for piracy).

Rydian is saying that if somebody says hacking (for both purposes) is considered illegal as a whole, using a knife, whether it be to cut food or to kill people, would be also considered illegal.

 

[mechadylan]

If that's what he meant then this analogy is getting worse. You cannot liken a "hacked" console to a knife. A knife can be purchased in any store worldwide; a "hacked" console cannot.

 

[s4mid4re]

If that's what he meant then this analogy is getting worse. You cannot liken a "hacked" console to a knife. A knife can be purchased in any store worldwide; a "hacked" console cannot.

You're just being stubborn. Also, this thread is about the legality of hacking and not how accessible you are to a hacked console.

 

[mechadylan]

If that's what he meant then this analogy is getting worse. You cannot liken a "hacked" console to a knife. A knife can be purchased in any store worldwide; a "hacked" console cannot.

You're just being stubborn. Also, this thread is about the legality of hacking and not how accessible you are to a hacked console.

Analogies are great tools for explaining complex situations. Bad analogies can oft times be misleading.

 

[nryn99]

If that's what he meant then this analogy is getting worse. You cannot liken a "hacked" console to a knife. A knife can be purchased in any store worldwide; a "hacked" console cannot.

You're just being stubborn. Also, this thread is about the legality of hacking and not how accessible you are to a hacked console.

Analogies are great tools for explaining complex situations. Bad analogies can oft times be misleading.

it's you who fail to see the analogy.
it was like this:
knife=hack.
not:
knife=hacked console.

and s4mid4re already explained it.