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Do you believe Russia hacked the US election?

What do you think is really going on? Let's get a little political here.

I assume you've all heard of the recent Vermont power grid "hacking" story. A few days ago a Vermont utility company found a russian virus on some guy's computer and (part of) the press extrapolated the fact, turning it into a so-called proof of a Russian conspiracy to hack the US power grid... That title was a fucking clickbait, and I just knew it. But not just your average buzzshit clickbait, a serious fucking one this time. When you read the article it became clear: pure bullshit. No evidence whatsoever, all that happened is that they found a regular virus on a random guy's computer, which happens a million times a day everywhere in the world. A few hours later they retracted, a lot of other sites and agencies stated that there was no such thing as a power grid hack attempt. Those media outlets jumped to conclusions to serve their own agenda, it seems.

Now regarding the "hacking" of the US election. Several US government agencies are claiming it's real. Are we being lied to? Are the FBI and homeland security and others all following orders of a higher instance or do they have actual evidence?
So far, they haven't shared much with the general public. Last week they released a document, which I read, but if you read it too you will find that it's absolutely empty of evidence. All it states is "we found some IP addresses in the logs" and "we found a bit of code that was used before". That amounts to nothing at all.

So why do they keep going on about this?
Do you think these agencies have insights they cant share with the public? could they have informants within the russian goverment? that's one of the few things I can think of that they would never be able to reveal. Or maybe it is just more political bullshit... but what's the point? Trump will take office soon and all this Russia crap isn't working. Apparently Trump has something to say on the subject that he will reveal on tuesday or wednesday. I wonder what that may be.

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Lacius

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The issue is that you are assuming this when in his (and mine) view the opposite is true to some extent as the well being of the people is hamper by the trampling of their rights.
I don't care why you value small government. I'm just acknowledging that you do value small government. I'm also acknowledging that you value small government more than you value people's well-being and access to equal opportunity in numerous circumstances.

Well the first issue that must be considered is whether or not it is a right. In the case of discrimination there is no right to not be discriminated against by basis of skin color or sexuality but there is a right to freely associate and also private property rights.
The Fourteenth Amendment would like to have a word with you.

If the right to not be discriminated against for an immutable characteristic in cases such as job-hiring, housing, etc. were not a guaranteed right (depending on what you're looking at, it's not), I would argue that it should be. But, that's the difference between our worldviews.
 
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Foxi4

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@Lacius As expected, we're slowly spiralling into cartoon land where you have to take me through every possible, however unlikely scenario on a wonderful rollercoaster ride at the end of which I'm supposed to say that I'm against gay marriage so that you can mount your horse of social justice, call me a bigot and gallop into the sanctimonious sunset, because you clearly don't want an answer, you just want to assassinate my character with an absurd example. If you want to make a villain out of me, just do it, I don't care. I don't play those kinds of games. I've been verbose enough in my explanation, introducing more "what if's" until you get the answer you want to hear isn't productive.

The police force doesn't exist to enforce morality, it exists to uphold the law - that's two different concepts. The law doesn't exist to ensure that everyone conducts themselves in a decent manner, it exists to protect the rights of individuals. The police doesn't arbitrarily hold guns to people's heads, and if it does, it most certainly isn't supposed to. Violence is and always has been the last resort in police situations, otherwise the force would devolve into an instrument of tyranny of the state. It's in place to protect people's rights, not to infringe upon them. I do not equate pursuing criminals with a violation of people's rights - it's the criminals who initiate the hostilities and the government is obligated to punish them accordingly - that's what they're getting paid for. Criminals waive their rights to a large extent the moment they commit a crime - by doing so, they break the laws established in their society, so it's apt that the society punishes them via a institution specifically designed to pursue criminals.

Your examples of certain rights superceding others are equally straight out of a Looney Tunes cartoon. I don't know if it's even prudent on my part to address them, but I will very briefly. In your mind, Person A should be able to use the government as a big stick to threaten Person B with whenever something Person A does bothers them, in this case it's listening to a stereo. In my mind, Person A should grow a pair and ask Person B to turn it down a little and that people's taxes shouldn't be wasted on sending a squad car and two armed officers to invade someone's private property and forcibly turn the volume down. The local home owners can come together and determine the rules of engagement themselves, the government doesn't need to be a part of this agreement. The government is the last institution I would invite into a dispute between neighbours. Unless Person B is breaking the law, the police has no business harassing him just because someone gets triggered by music.

You also accuse me of valuing the concept of a small government over people's well-being, which is a bogus claim based solely on your own definition of well-being. To me, opposing an intrusive government is the definition of caring about people's well-being, so no, it's not "principle vs. good of the people", you're trying to make a moral argument to discredit mine, and it's not working.
 

Lacius

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@Lacius As expected, we're slowly spiralling into cartoon land where you have to take me through every possible, however unlikely scenario on a wonderful rollercoaster ride at the end of which I'm supposed to say that I'm against gay marriage so that you can mount your horse of social justice, call me a bigot and gallop into the sanctimonious sunset because you clearly don't want an answer, you just want to assassinate my character with an absurd example. I don't play those kinds of games. I've been verbose enough in my explanation, introducing more "what if's" until you get the answer you want to hear isn't productive.
Don't blame me because you've just now realized the consequences of the positions you've taken. If you don't want to answer my questions because you've realized which positions you have to take in order to be consistent, that's your prerogative. I honestly don't blame you.

The police force doesn't exist to enforce morality, it exists to uphold the law - that's two different concepts. The law doesn't exist to ensure that everyone conducts themselves in a decent manner, it exists to protect the rights of individuals. The police doesn't arbitrarily hold guns to people's heads, and if it does, it most certainly isn't supposed to. Violence is and always has been the last resort in police situations, otherwise the force would devolve into an instrument of tyranny of the state. It's in place to protect people's rights, not to infringe upon them. I do not equate pursuing criminals as a violation of people's rights - it's the criminals who initiate the hostilities and the government is obligated to punish them accordingly - that's what they're getting paid for.
Don't blame me because your statement about governments forcing people to cooperate was overly broad.

I agree wholeheartedly that laws exist to protect the rights of individuals.

Your examples of certain rights superceding others are equally straight out of a Looney Tunes cartoon. I don't know if it's even prudent on my part to address them, but I will very briefly. In your mind, Person A should be able to use the government as a big stick to threaten Person B with whenever something Person A does bothers them, in this case it's listening to a stereo. In my mind, Person A should grow a pair and ask Person B to turn it down a little and that people's taxes shouldn't be wasted on sending a squad car and two armed officers to invade someone's private property and forcibly turn the volume down. The local home owners can come together and determine the rules of engagement themselves, the government doesn't need to be a part of this agreement. The government is the last institution I would invite into a dispute between neighbours. Unless Person B is breaking the law, the police has no business harassing him just because someone gets triggered by music.
You seem to have missed my point about rights entirely and projected some sort of law/police situation onto the scenario.

You also accuse me of valuing the concept of a small government over people's well-being, which is a bogus claim based solely on your own definition of well-being is. To me, opposing an intrusive government is the definition of caring about people's well-being, so no, it's not "principle vs. good of the people", you're trying to make a moral argument to discredit mine, and it's not working.
I'm well aware that you believe that small government is conducive to well-being, and I'm well aware that this is why you value small government. I specifically said that you value small government more than you value well-being in at least some circumstances:
I don't care why you value small government. I'm just acknowledging that you do value small government. I'm also acknowledging that you value small government more than you value people's well-being and access to equal opportunity in numerous circumstances.
Considering your views on discrimination, for example, what I bolded is objectively true.

You believe a government should do as little as possible. I believe that the government can and should do what it can to maximize well-being, particularly in situations where only the government can do so. You're alright with sacrificing some people's well-being in order to maintain consistency with your unsubstantiated small-government dogma. I am not.
 

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Don't blame me because you've just now realized the consequences of the positions you've taken. If you don't want to answer my questions because you've realized which positions you have to take in order to be consistent, that's your prerogative. I honestly don't blame you.
I'm not blaming you for my own positions, I'm accusing you of proposing trap scenarios for the sole purpose of disrupting dialogue. You can draw all of the answers from what I already posted, you just want me to repeat myself for no reason.
Don't blame me because your statement about governments forcing people to cooperate was overly broad.
Establishing rules of engagement is not a forcible measure. Having instruments that enact and protect the law isn't forcible at all either. It becomes unwarranted use of force when said instruments are used to trample on people's inalienable rights established in the founding codices of the country for the sake of some nebulous greater good, or just because of the government's fleeting fancy.
I agree wholeheartedly that laws exist to protect the rights of individuals.
Well, that's something.
You seem to have missed my point about rights entirely and projected some sort of law/police situation onto the scenario.
Are you surprised that I projected a law/police situation onto a conversation about the law and the police?
I'm well aware that you believe that small government is conducive to well-being, and I'm well aware that this is why you value small government. I specifically said that you value small government more than you value well-being in at least some circumstances:

Considering your views on discrimination, for example, what I bolded is objectively true.

You believe a government should do as little as possible. I believe that the government can and should do what it can to maximize well-being, particularly in situations where only the government can do so. You're alright with sacrificing some people's well-being in order to maintain consistency with your unsubstantiated small-government dogma. I am not.
What you call well-being is what I call oppression. The moment you allow the government to arbitrarily suspend your rights for the benefit of another is the moment you willingly board the train towards an authoritarian monster. As my main man Ben Shapiro once said, "The fact that people found it ridiculous that their own democratically elected government could turn on them is the reason why we have ashes in Europe today". You might find it soothing that the government punishes the rich for being rich, rewards women and minorities for being born women and minorities and forces private citizens to exchange goods and services under the threat of violence, and you very well might consider those things to be measures towards everyone's well-being - I find it unsettling.
 

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I'm not blaming you for my own positions, I'm accusing you of proposing trap scenarios for the sole purpose of disrupting dialogue. You can draw all of the answers from what I already posted, you just want me to repeat myself for no reason.
I've only asked you questions I don't know the answers to. If I take everything you said literally and don't allow you to contradict yourself, these would be my predicted answers:
  • Scenario 1A: Yes, you would ban infertile people, old people, etc. from marrying. (Edit: The reason is in this scenario, you said you would ban marriage that was inconducive to the goal of reproduction).
  • Scenario 1B: Yes, you would ban discrimination by private businesses. (Edit: The reason is you said you would sign bills into laws based solely on public opinion polls).
  • Scenario 2: Yes, you would vote Yes on a proposition that bans opposite-sex marriage. (Edit: The reason is because this scenario is nearly identical to one you answered about same-sex marriage and how you would get rid of same-sex marriage if only to minimize the existence of legal marriage of any kind).
Am I right?
Establishing rules of engagement is not a forcible measure. Having instruments that enact and protect the law isn't forcible at all either. It becomes unwarranted use of force when said instruments are used to trample on people's inalienable rights established in the founding codices of the country for the sake of some nebulous greater good, or just because of the government's fleeting fancy.
You seem to be conflating no force and warranted force.

Which "inalienable rights" have I suggested should be trampled on?

Are you surprised that I projected a law/police situation onto a conversation about the law and the police?
We're having several conversations at once, so I don't blame you, but by going on about how the police exist to uphold the law, you didn't actually respond to anything I said about people's conflicting rights.

What you call well-being is what I call oppression.
Let's be clear here. What I call well-being is probably what you call well-being. What I call policy conducive to well-being is probably what you call oppression, and I would disagree with you.

The moment you allow the government to arbitrarily suspend your rights for the benefit of another is the moment you willingly board the train towards an authoritarian monster.
The government picks and chooses between conflicting rights all the time. Take my example of free speech vs. creating a public hazard.

In other words, governments very often restrict what people can do. Anti-nudity laws restrict my ability to streak at night in order to benefit other people from, presumably, becoming too infatuated with my good-looking body to function. The government chose their rights over mine. There is a fine line between this and what most people would call authoritarianism.

As my main man Ben Shapiro once said, "The fact that people found it ridiculous that their own democratically elected government could turn on them is the reason why we have ashes in Europe today".
Quotes like these remind me to not become complacent with Trump and his actual tendencies toward authoritarianism.

You might find it soothing that the government punishes the rich for being rich
Proportionally taxing income levels based on what proportionately affects them isn't punishment. It's fair, not to mention efficient.

rewards women and minorities for being born women and minorities
I would have to know what you're specifically referring to before I can respond, but I wouldn't argue that these groups are the most advantaged in society.

and forces private citizens to exchange goods and services under the threat of violence
If one chooses to have a business that serves the public, then that business needs to serve the public. That business gets all of the benefits of serving the public and also benefits directly from tax dollars that the public has spent (e.g. roads, protection, etc.). Businesses are subject to regulation by the government if they're going to serve the public and use public resources. A business that serves food to the public has to abide by regulation that makes sure the food isn't going to poison the public, for example. We decided as a country that a business' right to poison people does not outweigh the public's right to not be poisoned. A business' right to discriminate does not outweigh the right of a population to not be discriminated against.

Nobody is being forced to exchange goods and services. If one can't handle anti-discrimination laws, one doesn't have to exchange goods and services at all.

"Under threat of violence" is a buzz phrase you've already admitted is nonsense when we're talking about upholding laws.

and you very well might consider those things to be measures towards everyone's well-being - I find it unsettling.
I know you do. Nobody's perfect.
 
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Foxi4

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I've only asked you questions I don't know the answers to. If I take everything you said literally and don't allow you to contradict yourself, these would be my predicted answers:
  • Scenario 1A: Yes, you would ban infertile people, old people, etc. from marrying. (Edit: The reason is in this scenario, you said you would ban marriage that was inconducive to the goal of reproduction).
  • Scenario 1B: Yes, you would ban discrimination by private businesses. (Edit: The reason is you said you would sign bills into laws based solely on public opinion polls).
  • Scenario 2: Yes, you would vote Yes on a proposition that bans opposite-sex marriage. (Edit: The reason is because this scenario is nearly identical to one you answered about same-sex marriage and how you would get rid of same-sex marriage if only to minimize the existence of legal marriage of any kind).
Am I right?
Close. Yes, if marriage is supposed to be an explicit agreement between the state and the couple to produce offspring in exchange for tax benefits, unless the couple was unaware of their infertility at the time of signing said agreement, which is exactly what I meant by "calculated risk". The word "risk" entails an investment with an uncertain return. This is not the legal definition in the U.S. though, so it's a side note in the discussion. No, I would not ban any form of discrimination in any private business as the rules of employment are subject to a contract signed by two consenting parties (the employer and the employee), my job is only to oversee that both sides fulfil their sides of the bargain as well as ensure that the bargain itself is not in violation of the pre-existing laws, for instance that it doesn't entail slave labour. Also a no in the event of denial of service, however I may or may not lean on the side of personally boycotting the business depending on the reason for refusing service - "no shirt, no service" and "no service for negros" are two very different kinds of refusals, the former being reasonable, the latter being blatantly racist. No, I would not "vote to ban" same-sex marriage as in the example same-sex marriage hasn't been codified yet, so there's nothing to ban. I would, however, listen to the people and enact their will accordingly.
You seem to be conflating no force and warranted force.
I don't.
Which "inalienable rights" have I suggested should be trampled on?
The fourth ammendment, for one. If I have a cake that I don't want to sell and the government puts a gun to my head and then, for all intents and purposes, seizes control of my property by deciding what to do with it for me, forcing me to sell that cake to someone I would not willingly sell it to, it has trampled on my inalienable rights. I get to decide who I sell my property to, not the government. The government cannot and should not coerce a non-consenting party into a business arrangement, because at that point it's not business, it's eminent domain.
We're having several conversations at once, so I don't blame you, but by going on about how the police exist to uphold the law, you didn't actually respond to anything I said about people's conflicting rights.

Let's be clear here. What I call well-being is probably what you call well-being. What I call policy conducive to well-being is probably what you call oppression, and I would disagree with you.
You are entitled to disagree with me or to fail to draw a conclusion from my answer.
The government picks and chooses between conflicting rights all the time. Take my example of free speech vs. creating a public hazard.
You defined yelling "fire" in a public setting for the purposes of causing panic as free speech, not me. Free speech equals the freedom to express opinion without being restrained by the government. Yelling "fire" does not constitute expressing an opinion, so it doesn't constitute free speech. If it's determined that the action was illegal, it should be punished to the full extent of the law. Your argument was poor, and you probably knew that when you made it.
In other words, governments very often restrict what people can do. Anti-nudity laws restrict my ability to streak at night in order to benefit other people from, presumably, becoming too infatuated with my good-looking body to function. The government chose their rights over mine. There is a fine line between this and what most people would call authoritarianism.
You never asked me if I approve of such laws. I don't mind you streaking - I'm not threatened by your genitalia, just don't catch a cold because I won't pay for your medical expenses.
Quotes like these remind me to not become complacent with Trump and his actual tendencies toward authoritarianism.
He's a beacon of hope, a shining example for us all and a national treasure. Praise kek.
Proportionally taxing income levels based on what proportionately affects them isn't punishment. It's fair, not to mention efficient.
There's nothing proportionate about having different tax brackets for different kinds of earners. Income tax is theft, it punishes people for working and thus discourages labour, but since it exists and I can't get rid of it (even though a value-added tax would be a better alternative), everyone should pay the same percentage of their income with no special treatment.
I would have to know what you're specifically referring to before I can respond, but I wouldn't argue that these groups are the most advantaged in society.
Women win the majority of child custody cases and are the de facto recipients of the most child support due to a persistent bias in the court system, they are exempted from draft, they hold 100% of reproductive rights as they can choose to keep or abort their children without the consent of the father, they face lower standards for public service, for instance in the police force or in the army and, thanks to Affirmative Action, they are more likely to enroll in college, more likely to graduate and more likely to find employment. The case is very similar with many minorities - independent studies show that different ethnicities need to score differently in order to enroll to the same college.

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welco...n-college-admissions-nobody-is-talking-about/

If as a black American I can score 450 points less than my Asian friend and still end up in the same course because our Asian founding fathers saw it fit to enact Affirmative Action and help me out a "little bit" then I would call that Black privilege. We can't talk about a level playing field when your enrollment is not dependant on your scholastic achievements, but on the colour of your skin, specifically because some idiot in Washington figured that diversity quotas are a good idea.
If one chooses to have a business that serves the public, then that business needs to serve the public. That business gets all of the benefits of serving the public and also benefits directly from tax dollars that the public has spent (e.g. roads, protection, etc.). Businesses are subject to regulation by the government if they're going to serve the public and use public resources. A business that serves food to the public has to abide by regulation that makes sure the food isn't going to poison the public, for example. We decided as a country that a business' right to poison people does not outweigh the public's right to not be poisoned. A business' right to discriminate does not outweigh the right of a population to not be discriminated against.
The idea that businesses exist to serve the public is fallacious - businesses exist to exchange goods and services between consenting parties. A business owner is not a public servant. I'm well-aware that rampant regulation stifles the operation of private businesses, what's your point? Besides, many companies don't even do business with the public - there are many industries in which companies only conduct business with other companies, not private individuals. If you base your argument on a premise that is untrue, it crumbles pretty easily. It's also ridiculous to assert that a business owes the government any form of servitude just because there's a road in front of it - the business pays taxes for that road to be there, it'd be odd if it *wasn't* provided with one.
Nobody is being forced to exchange goods and services. If one can't handle anti-discrimination laws, one doesn't have to exchange goods and services at all.
Whether said laws should be on the books at all is another story.
"Under threat of violence" is a buzz phrase you've already admitted is nonsense when we're talking about upholding laws.
If you don't think certain regulations are enforced under the threat of violence, try not following them.
I know you do. Nobody's perfect.
That's why I turn a blind eye to your strong aversion to freedom.
 

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@Foxi4 I was going to type a long response, but I think we're going in circles.
We are. It's been nice talking to you again. You mean well and I get where you're coming from, we just have different means to get to similar goals and different principles to uphold. The truth is somewhere in the middle, that ties a nice bow on the whole exchange.
 

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Obviously not. The only reason why democrats are losing is because their loudest, most visible part is ruining their reputation. Nobody will vote for this kind of people and instead of crying about "russian bots" it would be better to take things that are happening seriously.

Like, there are actual morons that are calling for genocide on white people, are aggresive towards others for not agreeing with them and are doing everything to reduce freedom of speech. They are the only one to be blamed because they are creating bad reputation for left side. Trump is not winning because he's good, but because he stands against these people, is their complete antithesis.
 
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