Understanding Nintendo and why no one does

[Foxi4]

There is no saturation of the Mario brand like you make it seem.

...this conversation is officially over, you're making yourself look ridiculous.

 

[Deleted_171835]

There is no saturation of the Mario brand like you make it seem.

...this conversation is officially over, you're making yourself look ridiculous.

When you fail to provide any reasonable counterpoints, the only person here that looks ridiculous is you.

 

[Foxi4]

Xenoblade Chronicles touches upon themes of gnosticism, much like its Xenosaga predecessors. It shares the Xeno name for a reason, even though the universes are not connected. The prefix Xeno was picked by the developers deliberately - the game features numerous "tributes" to Tetsuya Takahashi's past games and it's been generally recognized. It features another common theme - huge machines/robots, obviously connected with Xenogears. You would know about those things if you read about the subject - it's a relation similar to the one between System Shock and Bio Shock - call it a spiritual successor, if you will. Wikipedia recognizes that it is a related game, numerous reviewers recognize it as a related game, I recognize it as a related game and you can think whatever you want, really.

 

[DiscostewSM]

Xenoblade Chronicles has no relation to the Xenosaga series other than the name, which was to give honor to Tetsuya Takahashi, who made both.

 

[Foxi4]

Xenoblade Chronicles has no relation to the Xenosaga series other than the name, which was to give honor to Tetsuya Takahashi, who made both.

It's not connected plot-wise, universe-wise, character-wise or event-wise, it's connected with common themes, I thought I explained that.

It's like saying that Bioshock is not connected with System Shock, that ArmA is not connected with Operation Flashpoint, Wasteland with Fallout or Hexen with Heretic.

 

[Deleted_171835]

Xenoblade Chronicles touches upon themes of gnosticism, much like its Xenosaga predecessors. It shares the Xeno name for a reason, even though the universes are not connected. The prefix Xeno was picked by the developers deliberately - the game features numerous "tributes" to Tetsuya Takahashi's past games and it's been generally recognized. It features another common theme - huge machines/robots, obviously connected with Xenogears. You would know about those things if you read about the subject - it's a relation similar to the one between System Shock and Bio Shock - call it a spiritual successor, if you will. Wikipedia recognizes that it is a related game, numerous reviewers recognize it as a related game, I recognize it as a related game and you can think whatever you want, really.

Bringing up my earlier point, that doesn't discount Xenoblade as its own IP.

Similar themes are simply a result of the game having the same director and doesn't mean the games are related. And as Discostew explained, the name is a tribute to him.

 

[JulietStMoon]

Xenoblade Chronicles touches upon themes of gnosticism, much like its Xenosaga predecessors. It shares the Xeno name for a reason, even though the universes are not connected. The prefix Xeno was picked by the developers deliberately - the game features numerous "tributes" to Tetsuya Takahashi's past games and it's been generally recognized. It features another common theme - huge machines/robots, obviously connected with Xenogears. You would know about those things if you read about the subject - it's a relation similar to the one between System Shock and Bio Shock - call it a spiritual successor, if you will. Wikipedia recognizes that it is a related game, numerous reviewers recognize it as a related game, I recognize it as a related game and you can think whatever you want, really.

Note: I have not played any of the Xeno games, I'm just going off what I've read in this thread, as well as a little of Wikipedia, to give my 2 cents which may or may not be correct at all.

Following that logic, you might as well say that Perfect Dark is a sequel to Goldeneye. Just because it's considered a spiritual successor and/or is by the same company, or heck even shares the first two syllables doesn't mean it "doesn't count" as a new IP on its own.

Also, something interesting... the game wasn't going to have "xeno" in the title at all, recently. That was just a tribute to someone, and nothing more.

[quote name=Wikipedia]
Originally titled Monado: Beginning of the World, the game was retitled Xenoblade in January 2010 to honour Tetsuya Takahashi, "who poured his soul into making this and who has been working on the Xeno series".
[/quote]

So if the creators themselves said that they put "Xeno" in the title simply as a namesake, that doesn't really strengthen your case that it's meant to be part of this "Xeno Saga" you speak of. Any other similarities come from that fact that, well, it's the same developer making a game in the same genre as Xenogears. Those similarities don't make Xenoblade any more related to Xenogears than the active time battle system in Chrono Trigger makes it any more related to Final Fantasy IV.

That said, I do kind of agree with your Mario oversaturation. But still, it's honestly about sales. Do you honestly think "Nintendo's Tennis" is going to sell anywhere NEAR as many copies as "Mario Tennis"? No, and as long as the games are still different and of good quality, then I really don't mind.

And off topic, but I think if Nintendo is going to be best off making a FPS (not a first person adventure, like Metroid Prime) as a new IP. It's one of the few genres they haven't truly touched (unless you count Kid Icarus: Uprising).

 

[Foxi4]

Bringing up my earlier point, that doesn't discount Xenoblade as its own IP.

Similar themes are simply a result of the game having the same director and doesn't mean the games are related. And as Discostew explained, the name is a tribute to him.

For the sake of ending this barren discussion, I'll give you a point for Xenoblade even though I honestly believe that Nintendo had little to do with the game and it's entirely Monolith's creation. So, in the age of the Wii and the DS, we had 3 new IP's - Xenoblade, Rhythm Heaven and Nintendogs. 4 if you count the "Wii" series games (lol).

That said, I do kind of agree with your Mario oversaturation. But still, it's honestly about sales. Do you honestly think "Nintendo's Tennis" is going to sell anywhere NEAR as many copies as "Mario Tennis"? No, and as long as the games are still different and of good quality, then I really don't mind.

That's the root of the problem in my opinion. Mario became a "crutch" Nintendo uses to sell titles which otherwise wouldn't sell as well or alternatively titles that are risky. They lack the belief that they'll be able to "pull it off" and put Mario in them just to be sure. An example could be the Mini's series - it's a fantastic puzzle game that could very well have been a stand-alone game, but now it carries the burden of Mariology, never given the chance to start off a new franchise.

 

[DiscostewSM]

Dang, the discussion ended. And I was going to bring up something that had the common theme of giant robots.

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[Deleted_171835]

Bringing up my earlier point, that doesn't discount Xenoblade as its own IP.

Similar themes are simply a result of the game having the same director and doesn't mean the games are related. And as Discostew explained, the name is a tribute to him.

For the sake of ending this barren discussion, I'll give you a point for Xenoblade even though I honestly believe that Nintendo had little to do with the game and it's entirely Monolith's creation. So, in the age of the Wii and the DS, we had 3 new IP's - Xenoblade, Rhythm Heaven and Nintendogs. 4 if you count the "Wii" series games (lol).

Monolith Soft is a Nintendo first-party developer (as of 2007). Is Metroid Prime not considered a Nintendo game because it's made by Retro Studios (a Western Nintendo first-party developer)

Some other original stuff.

• Wii Sports (Resort)/Fit/Play
• Nintendogs
• Xenoblade
• Brain Age
• Sakurai Samurai
• Dillon's Rolling Western
• Fluidity
• Fossil Fighters
• Rhythm Heaven
• Electroplankton

That's the root of the problem in my opinion. Mario became a "crutch" Nintendo uses to sell titles which otherwise wouldn't sell as well or alternatively titles that are risky. They lack the belief that they'll be able to "pull it off" and put Mario in them just to be sure. An example could be the Mini's series - it's a fantastic puzzle game that could very well have been a stand-alone game, but now it carries the burden of Mariology, never given the chance to start off a new franchise.

Is that really a problem, though? As long as we get great innovative games, the franchise it's associated with shouldn't matter. Mario vs. Donkey Kong wouldn't have been any better if it was packaged with the Zelda brand instead of Mario.

 

[Gahars]

Is that really a problem, though? As long as we get great innovative games, the franchise it's associated with shouldn't matter. Mario vs. Donkey Kong wouldn't have been any better if it was packaged with the Zelda brand instead of Mario.

Foxi's point, as I understand it, as that these brand new games shouldn't be packaged with preexisting brands in the first place. Changing Mario out for Zelda or Metroid doesn't alleviate the problem.

 

[Deleted_171835]

Is that really a problem, though? As long as we get great innovative games, the franchise it's associated with shouldn't matter. Mario vs. Donkey Kong wouldn't have been any better if it was packaged with the Zelda brand instead of Mario.

Foxi's point, as I understand it, as that these brand new games shouldn't be packaged with preexisting brands in the first place. Changing Mario out for Zelda or Metroid doesn't alleviate the problem.

Zelda was a bad example. I mean that if Nintendo made that series with completely new characters, it wouldn't make a difference. The game would still be essentially the same.

 

[Foxi4]

Funny.

Dang, the discussion ended. And I was going to bring up something that had the common theme of giant robots.

"Characteristics I'd call "Uniquely Takashi" can be clearly seen in the game, and I think that the fans of the previous games will enjoy that aspect."
"Our conclusion was that the structure wouldn't be radically different from previous project."
~Developer's Interview

As a person who studies literature, I pick up those nuances - those small connections that can be drawn between Xenoblade, Xenosaga and Xenogears. They're clearly three epics from under the same pen, this is why they're considered related. I clarified it numerous times, they don't belong in the same series, however they are related and you are free to disagree since at the end of the day, it's a matter of personal opinion.

 

[ShadowSoldier]

How are Nintendo on the track to being a software company?

Nintendo may have never had the best specs in every console, but the games they have are some of the most unique and most fun that you simply can't find that kind of enjoyment on any other console. Nintendo has always been about gameplay and giving the users unique ways to play a game and put a smile on their face, and so far every console I've owned from them, I have smiled and laughed. Each generation they're always reinventing ways to play that everybody always tries to copy.

NES > SNES = 8 buttons on controller
SNES > N64 = Analog stick + Z Trigger
N64 > GameCube = Not much of a difference other than the C-Stick, but the controller is still one of the best designed for hands.
GameCube > Wii = Motion control that everybody dismissed, then it quickly spread like wildfire.
Wii > WiiU = Dual Screen for home console gaming? WHAT?! are you serious?

Look at how well the DS was and how everybody loved the Dual Screens. It allowed one to be used perfectly for maps, item selecting, games and others while all the action on the top screen wasn't cluttered. And now they're bringing it to the home console? Brilliant.

 

[Gahars]

Is that really a problem, though? As long as we get great innovative games, the franchise it's associated with shouldn't matter. Mario vs. Donkey Kong wouldn't have been any better if it was packaged with the Zelda brand instead of Mario.

Foxi's point, as I understand it, as that these brand new games shouldn't be packaged with preexisting brands in the first place. Changing Mario out for Zelda or Metroid doesn't alleviate the problem.

Zelda was a bad example. I mean that if Nintendo made that series with completely new characters, it wouldn't make a difference. The game would still be essentially the same.

The gameplay may be essentially the same, but the game as a whole? Not necessarily.

The point is, by adding a preexisting brand to a game, you're inherently limiting what it can be. With the Mario brand, the game has to "fit" into the Mario mold.

By trying something new (original characters, setting, all that jazz), though, the sky's the limit. There's freedom to create something radically new or fresh, something people haven't seen before. Maybe people will respond it, maybe they won't, but you'll never know if you don't try.

Plus, adding an established IP isn't always good for a game either. When there's so many Mario games being made (Wasn't 18 the last count?), it can be easy for one to get lost in the shuffle. With its own identity, a game can stand out and shine.

 

[Foxi4]

The gameplay may be essentially the same, but the game as a whole? Not necessarily.

The point is, by adding a preexisting brand to a game, you're inherently limiting what it can be. With the Mario brand, the game has to "fit" into the Mario mold.

By trying something new (original characters, setting, all that jazz), though, the sky's the limit. There's freedom to create something radically new or fresh, something people haven't seen before. Maybe people will respond it, maybe they won't, but you'll never know if you don't try.

Plus, adding an established IP isn't always good for a game either. When there's so many Mario games being made (Wasn't 18 the last count?), it can be easy for one to get lost in the shuffle. With its own identity, a game can stand out and shine.

Thank you for explaining it in such a wonderful way. No, 18 wasn't the last count - I just figured that there's no point in counting further since a link to a full list was posted, and I dread to find out how many more were released.

 

[Deleted_171835]

The gameplay may be essentially the same, but the game as a whole? Not necessarily.

The point is, by adding a preexisting brand to a game, you're inherently limiting what it can be. With the Mario brand, the game has to "fit" into the Mario mold.

By trying something new (original characters, setting, all that jazz), though, the sky's the limit. There's freedom to create something radically new or fresh, something people haven't seen before. Maybe people will respond it, maybe they won't, but you'll never know if you don't try.

Plus, adding an established IP isn't always good for a game either. When there's so many Mario games being made, it's easy to get lost in the shuffle. With its own identity, a game can stand out and shine.

I realize that but with most Nintendo games, the story and the setting doesn't matter as much. With games like Mario vs. Donkey Kong: March of the Minis, giving the game an original set of characters wouldn't make a difference. Even so, there isn't much of an established Mario world, they could very well make the game feature an entirely new world even if it is tied down to the same characters (like Sarasaland in Super Mario Land).

There are games that Nintendo does make (most notably Xenoblade for this gen) that are completely original. They didn't package it around the Zelda or Mario IP because it simply wouldn't work with that considering it's an RPG and has a heavy focus on story.

An established IP generally is a smarter decision business-wise, though. If Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis was an original game, it simply wouldn't have sold as much. Given that game focuses almost entirely on the puzzle and gameplay aspects, the IP it's associated with doesn't matter.

 

[Foxi4]

There are games that Nintendo does make (most notably Xenoblade for this gen) that are completely original. They didn't package it around the Zelda or Mario IP because it simply wouldn't work with that considering it's an RPG and has a heavy focus on story.

I'm sure that Monolith's department barred its doors and windows and hired sentries to protect themselves during development to make this game as pure and original as possible.

Also explains why it was released in North America with such a delay - till the very last moment, Reggie was counting on riding on a Yoshi, or at the very least on Epona. He was gravely disappointed.