To American Atheists

[cwstjdenobs]

http://www.atheists.org/law/Ground_Zero

Really? FFS it's a memorial site. I get the whole separation of church and state thing but this seems pathetic and petty even to me. To me this is sounding like they want to abuse this idea to get the state to endorse their beliefs and try and exclude Christians. And over what? A piece of structural steel that just so happens to be in the shape of a cross, that was erected by the people who had to do the actual work of rescuing people and cleaning up the mess. And no matter how much you may wish otherwise that structure is part of the bigger story and has become a symbol of the ability to cope and sheer willpower needed to carry on and overcome such a tragic event to people of all, and no, faiths in many places on this little planet. I for one hope this, and many other symbols of faith will find a place there for the families of all the victims who will visit this place to mourn and honour their fallen loved ones. Even if some compromise of a "multi faith chapel" is needed to make it happen.

I also hope a repeat of the "ground zero" mosque disgrace doesn't happen and you include the families of these victims in this:-

Spoiler

Shabbir Ahmed - 47 years old - Windows on the World Restaurant
Tariq Amanullah - 40 years old - Fiduciary Trust Co.
Michael Baksh - 36 years old - Marsh & McLennan
Touri Hamzavi Bolourchi - 69 years old - retired nurse on United #175
Abul K. Chowdhury - 30 years old - Cantor Fitzgerald
Mohammad Salahuddin Chowdhury - 38 years old - Windows on the World
Jemal Legesse De Santis - 28 years old - World Trade Center
Simon Suleman Ali Kassamali Dhanani - 63 years old - Aon Corp.
Syed Abdul Fatha - 54 years old - Pitney Bowes
Mon Gjonbalaj - 65 years old - Janitor, World Trade Center
Nezam A. Hafiz - 32 years old - Marsh & McLennan
Mohammed Salman Hamdani - 23 years old - NYPD Cadet
Zuhtu Ibis - 25 years old - Cantor Fitzgerald
Muhammadou Jawara - 30 years old - MAS Security
Sarah Khan - 32 years old - Forte Food Service
Taimour Firaz Khan - 29 years old - Carr Futures
Abdoulaye Kone - 37 years old - Windows on the World
Abdu Ali Malahi - 37 years old - WTC Marriott
Nurul Hoque Miah - 35 years old - Marsh & McLennan
Boyie Mohammed - 50 years old - Carr Futures
Ehtesham U. Raja - 28 years old - TCG Software
Ameenia Rasool - 33 years old - Marsh & McLennan
Mohammad Ali Sadeque - 62 years old - newspaper vendor at WTC, reported missing
Rahma Salie & child - 28 years old (7 months pregnant) - American #11
Khalid M. Shahid - 25 years old - Cantor Fitzgerald
Mohammed Shajahan - 41 years old - Marsh & McLennan
Nasima Hameed Simjee - 38 years old - Fiduciary Trust Co.
Michael Theodoridis - 32 years old - American #11
Abdoul Karim Traore - 41 years old - Windows on the World
Karamo Trerra - 40 years old - ASAP NetSource
Shakila Yasmin - 26 years old - Marsh & McLennan

 

[Wombo Combo]

From the page

This cross is set to be included in the official WTC memorial. No other religions or philosophies will be honored. It will just be a Christian icon,

I agree with the story about this it is not fair to non believers and even other religion

Also from the story
QUOTEEquality is an all-or-nothing deal.

Agreed every one can have their own symbol in the museum or no one will seems fair to me not one is more important than the other.

 

[ThatDudeWithTheFood]

I agree with WomboCombo although thats still kind of sad.

 

[cwstjdenobs]

^^Yeah but fight for the compromise, don't just throw it in in passing. I really think suing to make sure other victims where going to be represented would be better than suing to have no faith involved at all in a memorial...

Yes, I know the cross would still end up being the biggest symbol there, and probably take centre place, but is any American Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, whatever going to take offence at that?

EDIT: Also weren't the vast majority of victims Christian? In some small way the difference in size could be accepted because of that if people must forget the history behind it.

 

[HateBreed]

well, people forget what the meaning of the cross was for. It was used more than just for jesus. it was a symbol that who ever lay there crucified was damned to hell for eternity. People forget that (in theory) it was used to damn whatever soul was placed there. It is not of hope, its a symbol of punishment. My church doesn't allow crucifix in our church and I don't see why it must be there. that being said, I don't see how it hurts anyone. Unless you're petty and childish as hell that everything offends you. If that's the case then they can shut the fuck up, because this is America and all Americans know that we do what we damn well please. The supporters for that little symbol greatly outweigh the people against it. would you rather have a tiny mob of athiests or a giant mob of crazy overly religious people who value symbols more than the actual bible?

 

[cwstjdenobs]

off-topic @Hatebreed, I didn't know that bit of the history of crucifixion. And I've traced it all the way back to China. Hard to believe when the concept of hell was invented by Christianity that it could be use to condemn people to eternal hell before it existed...

EDIT:Could you PM me links please? Keep that conversation out of this thread?

 

[machomuu]

Are we generalizing again? *sigh* And that title is annoyingly misleading.

 

[HateBreed]

well idk that's what our preacher told us. I honestly believe that all religions are based on misconceptions of aliens

 

[Rayder]

You know, I tend to consider myself an atheist, or at the very least, an agnostic, but I also understand that many people truly and honestly believe in God. That's perfectly fine with me. If that cross being there consoles even one person that has lost family or friends in that tragedy, then who's it really hurting? If a person is an atheist, then the cross should simply mean nothing to them, they shouldn't get all bent out of shape over it. Just look the other way if it bothers you.

The only time I feel offended by religion is when religion is being shoved in my face by a person insisting that I MUST believe in their preaching after I have made it clear (even if just by the look on my face) that I don't want to hear it. Yes, THAT bothers me. But some inanimate structure doesn't offend me in the least because I can look at it or ignore it as I see fit. It's not like that cross has a loud-speaker on it that keeps blasting out, "PRAISE GOD!" on it, it can simply be ignored as meaningless to anyone who doesn't believe in God.

Just as there are religious fanatics, there apparently are also anti-religion fanatics. It's not like either side of the argument can be 100% proven definitively anyway. We'll find out when we die, won't we?

But in either side's case, I feel they should just be told to shut up and deal with it when they get too loud and adamant with their inflexibility.

 

[Prophet]

Uh-Oh this is going to turn into Atheist vs Christians in 5. 4. 3...

Seriously though, before the thread devolves please heed a few words of wisdom from Eric Hoffer:

"The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not."

 

[cwstjdenobs]

Are we generalizing again? *sigh* And that title is annoyingly misleading.

I don't think so, I was pretty certain a lot of American Atheists would think this is a step too far. Which might be a generalisation but I do tend to think most people are reasonable.

And the title, erm how could it be better? I was sort of playing on the fact that they are claiming to represent all of them.

 

[HateBreed]

You know, I tend to consider myself an atheist, or at the very least, an agnostic, but I also understand that many people truly and honestly believe in God. That's perfectly fine with me. If that cross being there consoles even one person that has lost family or friends in that tragedy, then who's it really hurting? If a person is an atheist, then the cross should simply mean nothing to them, they shouldn't get all bent out of shape over it. Just look the other way if it bothers you.

The only time I feel offended by religion is when religion is being shoved in my face by a person insisting that I MUST believe in their preaching after I have made it clear (even if just by the look on my face) that I don't want to hear it. Yes, THAT bothers me. But some inanimate structure doesn't offend me in the least because I can look at it or ignore it as I see fit. It's not like that cross has a loud-speaker on it that keeps blasting out, "PRAISE GOD!" on it, it can simply be ignored as meaningless to anyone who doesn't believe in God.

Just as there are religious fanatics, there apparently are also anti-religion fanatics. It's not like either side of the argument can be 100% proven definitively anyway. We'll find out when we die, won't we?

But in either side's case, I feel they should just be told to shut up and deal with it when they get too loud and adamant with their inflexibility.

Christianity is for the weak and broken. People that have hit rock bottom and had nowhere else to turn. For others its a source of income because they abuse the weak minds of people. My beliefs are that we should keep stuff like that to ourselves and if anyone wants to hear religious mumbo jumbo then they will go out and look for it.

 

[Slyakin]

I don't know why people think that the attack on the Twin Towers was an attack against Christianity. It was just done by some nutjob who just happened to be suicidal.

In this sense, I think the cross should still be there, but they should also make the symbols of all the religions in the museum.

And I don't think this will ever escalate to the ground zero Masjid fiasco. The media basically hates Islam, loves Christianity. If it involves Islam and it's bad? Full coverage. If it involves Christianity and it's bad? Nope. We don't want to insult the "country's religion".

 

[Foxi4]

Christianity is for the weak and broken. People that have hit rock bottom and had nowhere else to turn. For others its a source of income because they abuse the weak minds of people. My beliefs are that we should keep stuff like that to ourselves and if anyone wants to hear religious mumbo jumbo then they will go out and look for it.

Agressive Atheism is for those truly alone, people who are so full of themselves that they fail to realize that they're not the navel of the world and attempt to force-feed others, since what THEY believe is the only right choice. For others, it's a source of infinite annoyance. My beliefs are that you should keep your beliefs to yourself, and anyone who wants to hear your non-religious mumbo jumbo will surely visit you in I-Don't-Care County.

Ontopic: At the end of the day, it's just a cross, errected by people who were working tirelessly on-site, attempting to find any survivours or at least recover bodies. It's not a symbol of religious faith, it's a symbol of faith in the human spirit. If people fail to see past the appereances then it's just... sad, really.

 

[cwstjdenobs]

Ontopic: At the end of the day, it's just a cross, errected by people who were working tirelessly on-site, attempting to find any survivours or at least recover bodies. It's not a symbol of religious faith, it's a symbol of faith in the human spirit. If people fail to see past the appereances then it's just... sad, really.

Thank you. That was part of my point I didn't get across very well.

 

[Wombo Combo]

I think its about the right for other people to put their own symbol Christians are not the only one that should be allowed to put any thing up at a place of remembrance anywhere period in America. We have freedom of religion and seperation of church and state if you allow Christians to put something there you should allow Atheists, Muslims, Satanists to put theirs


tldr in a government/state owned place if you allow one religion symbol to put up you should have to allow any others.

 

[Pyrmon]

And I don't think this will ever escalate to the ground zero Masjid fiasco.

It was a fiasco? I though the Mosque was going to open this year?

 

[Forstride]

This is the kind of shit that pisses me off. You don't see other religious groups getting their dicks in a twist over this. You don't see other religious groups filing lawsuits because they can't get their own symbols placed.

You know, over the years, it seems as though Atheists have started attacking other religions, just because other people don't acknowledge, respect, or follow their beliefs.

OH, THE IRONY!

It's exactly what they accuse other religions of doing, and it's beyond hypocritical.

 

[cwstjdenobs]

And I don't think this will ever escalate to the ground zero Masjid fiasco.

It was a fiasco? I though the Mosque was going to open this year?

The way they went on about it was disgusting. "Oh noes, there's only being an Islamic community in that area of NY for about 100 years. And now these damn terrorists are wanting their own local place of worship."

 

[Slyakin]

And I don't think this will ever escalate to the ground zero Masjid fiasco.

It was a fiasco? I though the Mosque was going to open this year?

By fiasco, I meant "really big and bad situation that involved a lot of people arguing".

And it is? That's nice to know.

It sucks to know that, in a country where we're supposed to be free, we can be oppressed by the goddamn media because someone wanted to make a religious center (semi)near a crash site. Sickening.