Hacking Legal Questions

[twiztidsinz]

I downloaded the games...Illegal, even if you own a legitimate copy. Contrary to popular belief, creating backups from retail discs is also illegal. However, backing up a game that one owns in order to benefit from the convenience a USB loader provides or avoid scratching the retail disc is definitely a lot more ethical than just downloading games. Still illegal though.The bold part is incorrect, however the RIAA/MPAA/Game companies wish it otherwise.
Once you purchase media, be it music movie or game, you are allowed to make an archival/backup copy(copies?) and convert it to another medium so long as they both(all?) remain in your possession and are for personal use.
The RIAA has been a HUGE opposition to the second part, converting it to another medium, but every attempt they have made to have it be illegal has failed. If it were illegal, then you wouldn't legally be able to 'rip' CDs to MP3 (or another digital format) for use on a portable player.
As a point, RIAA had been trying to convince people that converting a CD to a digital file should be prohibited. Around the same time, while Bush was still in office, he was asked what he had on his iPod. His response included The Beatles, which, according to what the RIAA wanted people to believe, would have been illegal since The Beatles weren't on sale in a digital format til December 2009, and not for download til November 2010.

QUOTE(Boogieman @ Feb 21 2011, 04:42 AM)

Would offering to trade my time to set up such a system, where one could play backups of owned games, for other services/computer parts/whatever also be illegal?

As long as you're not providing backups, it is legal.

That is a gray area, which mostly falls onto the 'illegal' side as it's essentially circumventing copy protection which the DMCA forbids.

 

[neotank19]

Asking if something is legal or illegal on a wii hacking forum is a complete waste of time. Go consult an attorney if you want an answer you can trust.

Now for my bit of wasted time, twiztidsinz is exactly right. Backing up a game you own is completely legal.

 

[Taleweaver]

This is funny, no one really knows what they're talking about.

If you want to make a reference to everybody in the thread, at least make sure you've read all the comments. I'm not bullshitting or ignorant with my previous post. Just cautious, as I'm not a lawyer.
Sifjar and drewmerc also provided correct information, and now twiztidsinz as well (I can also +1 that "it's legal to make a copy for personal use only", btw).

 

[CannonFoddr]

In some countries (e.g. UK), I'm pretty sure it is legal to rip your own games. DMCA doesn't allow it, but that is USA law, so if you're outside of USA, it is legal.No No No - it's illegal in the UK to make any digital backups of software UNLESS it's mentioned in the EULA that a copy may be made. Since not a lot of people actually read the EULA all the way through it is considered illegal, but people still do it anyway
QUOTE(drewmerc @ Feb 21 2011, 07:23 PM) i beg to differ read number 1 below (i doubt this will cover downloading it tho)
the problem with have is we are not allow to bypass encryption (tho we are allow to reverse engineer it...strange damn laws)

Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988
50ABack up copies.
(1)It is not an infringement of copyright for a lawful user of a copy of a computer program to make any back up copy of it which it is necessary for him to have for the purposes of his lawful use.

I think you're right about the downloading part since it does say 'to make any back up copy' - of which downloading is not 'making'

However this refers to only COMPUTER PROGRAMS, not DIGITAL MEDIA (ok - technically 'Games' are digital programs)... depending on country - but I think it refers to MOST countries, as you mentioned Copyright laws states that "any circumventing of security measures in place to produce copies of digital material is breach of copyright"
Since NDS/Wii games have forms of 'protection' in place (ie WII game disk are of a non-standard PC format, DS games are of a non-standard memory card format) then making 'copies' of these is deemed breaking Copyright law

If anyone bothers to read Nintendos EULA's all the way through (I admit I've never have), you may find it states that 'digital copies are in breach of copyright laws' (or words to that affect) regardless of whether you own the original or not

 

[twiztidsinz]

If anyone bothers to read Nintendos EULA's all the way through (I admit I've never have), you may find it states that 'digital copies are in breach of copyright laws' (or words to that affect) regardless of whether you own the original or not

In the U.S. at least, ELUAs don't hold up in court in part due to the fact that you have to open the item/install to read it, but once it's open you can't return it.

 

[CannonFoddr]

If anyone bothers to read Nintendos EULA's all the way through (I admit I've never have), you may find it states that 'digital copies are in breach of copyright laws' (or words to that affect) regardless of whether you own the original or not

In the U.S. at least, ELUAs don't hold up in court in part due to the fact that you have to open the item/install to read it, but once it's open you can't return it.

True... I think it's the same in UK, but in some cases (especially in the case of 'downloadable software') - you don't get the option of 'breaking open the package' to see the EULA since there's no package to open

 

[Donkey Plonk]

But drop the whole, I just hacked my wii to play my legally owned games bullshit, no-ones buying it! Everyone knows why you would want to hack a wii, I haven't met anyone who has the homebrew channel installed and doesn't have an illegal game.

I'm SifJar, nice to meet you.

Now you have.

Well aren't you just brilliant.
Unfortunately this site is pretty much dedicated to piracy, dress it up or down any way you choose.
No doubt when you originally decided to play about with console modding it was for the same reason as most of us. Who is playing their console as a young child thinking, yeah, I could run Linux up on this bitch. No, you're thinking, I want more games

 

[CannonFoddr]

.........No doubt when you originally decided to play about with console modding it was for the same reason as most of us....

Actually - in my case, when I first considered softmodding it because I wanted to play Movie DVD's on the Wii since my existing DVD player went 'kaput' the week before & I couldn't afford to buy a new one.

Once softmodded - I then found out about USB HDD support & thought it'll be nice to have the Movies on HDD instead (save having to keep swapping disks - I can now watch whole series in one go without having to get up

) THEN I moved onto games ... so

 

[Donkey Plonk]

.........No doubt when you originally decided to play about with console modding it was for the same reason as most of us....

Actually - in my case, when I first considered softmodding it because I wanted to play Movie DVD's on the Wii since my existing DVD player went 'kaput' the week before & I couldn't afford to buy a new one.

Once softmodded - I then found out about USB HDD support & thought it'll be nice to have the Movies on HDD instead (save having to keep swapping disks - I can now watch whole series in one go without having to get up

) THEN I moved onto games ... so

And the wii is your first ever console?
Perhaps I'm just too old and from the days when chipping was chipping, long before homebrew on consoles

 

[steve-p]

EULA's mean nothing - it's like a drunk that run's his mouth.

however, the EU has had the evil spawn of DMCA forced on it by blackmail from the u.s.
this evil is called "EUCD" and is almost like the Holocaust laws,
if you even talk about it or think about it - you are a criminal!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Directive

 

[Hells Guardian]

Modding your own system is pefectly legal. the illegal aspect is usually the use of backups ect. Some countries it is legal to make your own backups others it's not. It's a matter of the country you live in. It's frowned upon universally though.

 

[CannonFoddr]

.........No doubt when you originally decided to play about with console modding it was for the same reason as most of us....

Actually - in my case, when I first considered softmodding it because I wanted to play Movie DVD's on the Wii since my existing DVD player went 'kaput' the week before & I couldn't afford to buy a new one.

Once softmodded - I then found out about USB HDD support & thought it'll be nice to have the Movies on HDD instead (save having to keep swapping disks - I can now watch whole series in one go without having to get up

) THEN I moved onto games ... so

And the wii is your first ever console?
Perhaps I'm just too old and from the days when chipping was chipping, long before homebrew on consoles

Nope.. First ever [TV] console was an Atari 2600 (I think some call it a 'woody'), followed by Megadrive, then Gamecube, then Wii (Unless you count a PC as a games machine - in which case THAT came between the Megadrive and Gamecube)

 

[DownSince86]

TLR version:

- Modifying your console = legal (as in your aren't getting fined/going to jail for it)
- Downloading games from the internet = illegal.
- Making backups of your own games = legal or illegal (see note at bottom of post).
- Charging money to modify someones console for them = legal (see note at bottom of post).

Note about backing up games: It is legal to make backups of your own stuff, it is illegal to by-pass encryption to do so. So if the source material is encrypted in some way it is illegal if you break the encryption (which you have to do to make the backup). So dumping an old cartridge is perfectly legal. Copying a movie DVD is not, because of the encryption. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeCSS

Note about charging money to mod consoles: Charge them for your time, not the homebrew software. Explain to them that you are charging for your time before you start the process, so you don't look like an idiot when that scam screen pops up during the hackmii installer. I charge a one time fee of $20, cause it usually takes me two hours to install/verify everything works/explain how to use the thing. DO NOT give them games, or roms, or video files, or whatever other "illegal" content you have laying around. If your going to do all that you don't care if this is legal or not anyway.

I am not a lawyer, I only modify maybe 10 consoles a year (mostly for friends) and I do not advertise my services....all my customers were gained through word of mouth and honestly I don't like doing the modification for someone else anyway. I just like helping friends and friends of friends and I don't leave the house for free. This is just general advice based on my understanding of the laws and ethics of the community (which I love). I don't really care if what I do is illegal, as long as it isn't immoral. I am probably wrong on several points.

Guess this really isn't the TLR version....

 

[SifJar]

Well aren't you just brilliant.
Unfortunately this site is pretty much dedicated to piracy, dress it up or down any way you choose.
No doubt when you originally decided to play about with console modding it was for the same reason as most of us. Who is playing their console as a young child thinking, yeah, I could run Linux up on this bitch. No, you're thinking, I want more games

Nope. The original reason was so my brother could play Guitar Fun and play custom tracks with his Guitar Hero guitar. After that, we started using WiiMC for import DVDs and streaming videos from computer. I occasionally play a homebrew game like SuperSonic Wii or MyLittleBall. Other than that, I very rarely use homebrew at all.

 

[XFlak]

I don't see why gbatemp has a reputation for its members being pirates... if u ask me... that other website that allows copywritten material to be hosted on their site should have a worse reputation... but for some reason it doesn't.

Anyways, I find it offensive that ppl just assume cuz someone is a gbatemp member that makes them a pirate. That is total BS. There are plenty of reasons to softmod besides piracy, like being able to have all your games backed up on a hard drive and have then run faster than off a disc. As if that weren't enough, all the emulators and media players are awesome too... not to mention being able to back up ALL your gamesaves and much much more. Just because someone is capable of pirating doesn't make them a pirate. I'm a black belt in tae kwon do and capable of causing some serious damage... does that make me a murderer? No, killing someone would make me a murderer, and pirating a game would make me a pirate. Studying martial-arts/softmodding doesn't imply murder/piracy.

So to all those ppl saying things like "everyone knows ppl on gbatemp pirate"... plz stop saying that. Speak for yourself if you want, but not for the entire gbatemp community, we each have a voice and don't need you to speak for us. If u want, start a piracy poll, and based on the results u can call gbatemp whatever u like... but until then, don't assume that just because ur a pirate all gbatempers are as well. You know what they say... "when you assume u make an ass out of u and me"... something to think about.

 

[Boogieman]

Oh boy; I've opened a can of worms...haha

I downloaded the games...Illegal, even if you own a legitimate copy. Contrary to popular belief, creating backups from retail discs is also illegal. However, backing up a game that one owns in order to benefit from the convenience a USB loader provides or avoid scratching the retail disc is definitely a lot more ethical than just downloading games. Still illegal though.The bold part is incorrect, however the RIAA/MPAA/Game companies wish it otherwise.
Once you purchase media, be it music movie or game, you are allowed to make an archival/backup copy(copies?) and convert it to another medium so long as they both(all?) remain in your possession and are for personal use.
The RIAA has been a HUGE opposition to the second part, converting it to another medium, but every attempt they have made to have it be illegal has failed. If it were illegal, then you wouldn't legally be able to 'rip' CDs to MP3 (or another digital format) for use on a portable player.
As a point, RIAA had been trying to convince people that converting a CD to a digital file should be prohibited. Around the same time, while Bush was still in office, he was asked what he had on his iPod. His response included The Beatles, which, according to what the RIAA wanted people to believe, would have been illegal since The Beatles weren't on sale in a digital format til December 2009, and not for download til November 2010.

QUOTE(Boogieman @ Feb 21 2011, 04:42 AM)

Would offering to trade my time to set up such a system, where one could play backups of owned games, for other services/computer parts/whatever also be illegal?

As long as you're not providing backups, it is legal.

That is a gray area, which mostly falls onto the 'illegal' side as it's essentially circumventing copy protection which the DMCA forbids.

This was my understanding to the dot. However, my confusion is mostly in part to the combination of all these (and more) factors when it comes to playing the game off of a USB HDD. In a nut shell:

Backing up owned media = legal. Great.
Transferring it to my USB HDD = legal. Great.
Modding my Wii = legal. Great.

Here's the icky part: Playing Backups off of my USB HDD. legal? I don't know. I am allowed to create the backup, but my Wii prevents the use of these backups. So what good are they? Unless I mod it to circumvent the checks? Which is technically illegal.

 

[Donkey Plonk]

I don't see why gbatemp has a reputation for its members being pirates... if u ask me... that other website that allows copywritten material to be hosted on their site should have a worse reputation... but for some reason it doesn't.

Anyways, I find it offensive that ppl just assume cuz someone is a gbatemp member that makes them a pirate. That is total BS. There are plenty of reasons to softmod besides piracy, like being able to have all your games backed up on a hard drive and have then run faster than off a disc. As if that weren't enough, all the emulators and media players are awesome too... not to mention being able to back up ALL your gamesaves and much much more. Just because someone is capable of pirating doesn't make them a pirate. I'm a black belt in tae kwon do and capable of causing some serious damage... does that make me a murderer? No, killing someone would make me a murderer, and pirating a game would make me a pirate. Studying martial-arts/softmodding doesn't imply murder/piracy.

So to all those ppl saying things like "everyone knows ppl on gbatemp pirate"... plz stop saying that. Speak for yourself if you want, but not for the entire gbatemp community, we each have a voice and don't need you to speak for us. If u want, start a piracy poll, and based on the results u can call gbatemp whatever u like... but until then, don't assume that just because ur a pirate all gbatempers are as well. You know what they say... "when you assume u make an ass out of u and me"... something to think about.

ok so perhaps assuming all members are pirates is a bit out there.
But lets face it, the site advocates piracy, not only for all the forum posts, at the end of the day, these are general public topics, but there is a complete scene release with release numbers created by and for this site. And those scene releases whilst not hosted here are clearly to do with piracy.

What I was trying to get at is, you aint gotta beat around the bush here, just come out and say it. Whilst not every member here may be a pirate. Who the hell actually backs their games up I mean legit as in buys a game and wants to protect it that bad they back it up. And if there really are any people like that out there. Have they ever got a disc in such a bad way they've needed to use their backup? C'MON!!! lol

 

[Boogieman]

ok so perhaps assuming all members are pirates is a bit out there.
But lets face it, the site advocates piracy, not only for all the forum posts, at the end of the day, these are general public topics, but there is a complete scene release with release numbers created by and for this site. And those scene releases whilst not hosted here are clearly to do with piracy.

What I was trying to get at is, you aint gotta beat around the bush here, just come out and say it. Whilst not every member here may be a pirate. Who the hell actually backs their games up I mean legit as in buys a game and wants to protect it that bad they back it up. And if there really are any people like that out there. Have they ever got a disc in such a bad way they've needed to use their backup? C'MON!!! lol

Johnny Depp in Pirates of the Carribean is the epitome of man. It is no wonder that most people want to be pirates.

haha.

On the flip side, be a little realistic. I personally have not had to use a Wii backup (I JUST got my Wii) but I know that I've had to use COUNTLESS backups for PC software. I either misplace, scratch, or even accidentally destroy my media. Lets face it, upkeeping 10 cents isnt worth my attention. Have you NEVER played a game so much with the, say PS2 or PC, that the disc is TOO scratched to play anymore? A little broader maybe, ever listen to a CD so many times its scratched to shit and now skips? I know I have. Ever leave a game @ a friends place?

Realistically, yea, the zeal with which alot of people pursue these backups isn't parallel to the aformentioned and yea, most people use it to play free games, but I think its unfair to stereotype.

Personally, there was a time when I bought a $60 game, and through use (my friends/little siblings didn't help) it became unreadable. When you're a 12 year old kid from a very modest upbringing, $60 is alot to spend then lose. Not having a backup option was actually what led me to piracy to begin with. Talk about irony.

 

[Oveneise]

Softmodding your wii is not illegal. Playing backups is not illegal, but downloading games even if you own them is illegal. So when you back up your games, legally, you need to rip them yourself.

 

[SFenton]

Well aren't you just brilliant.
Unfortunately this site is pretty much dedicated to piracy, dress it up or down any way you choose.
No doubt when you originally decided to play about with console modding it was for the same reason as most of us. Who is playing their console as a young child thinking, yeah, I could run Linux up on this bitch. No, you're thinking, I want more games

Nope. The original reason was so my brother could play Guitar Fun and play custom tracks with his Guitar Hero guitar. After that, we started using WiiMC for import DVDs and streaming videos from computer. I occasionally play a homebrew game like SuperSonic Wii or MyLittleBall. Other than that, I very rarely use homebrew at all.

^Hey, the same reason I modded mine! Loved GH3 back then. Didn't get *really* into looking at software stuff till around Rock Band 2 time. Heck, I remember when I knew so little, when Trucha Signer came out, I jammed my GH3 disc into my PC (which of course wouldn't work), and then prayed that I could play customs with Trucha Signer (also would not work).

Sorry for the derail. Just thought that was interesting.