Hacking Key Hypocrisy

blawar

Developer
OP
Developer
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
1,708
Trophies
1
Age
40
XP
4,311
Country
United States
By your response it's apparent you didn't understand his reasoning. He made a legal argument. He essentially nullified your entire reasoning on the subject.

As previously stated, intent matters when it comes to prosecutorial action and success.

Whether a prosecutor decides to charge you or not, does not make what you did any less illegal. You are trying to defend open source software violating copyrights, while shitting on TX for doing the same. Atmosphere is 100% illegal, end of story. Whether Nintendo will ever decide to sue them is a different matter.
 

blahblah

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
1,132
Trophies
0
Age
35
XP
1,472
Country
United States
Whether a prosecutor decides to charge you or not, does not make what you did any less illegal. You are trying to defend open source software violating copyrights, while shitting on TX for doing the same. Atmosphere is 100% illegal, end of story. Whether Nintendo will ever decide to sue them is a different matter.

No matter how many times you say it, it remains untrue.
 

blawar

Developer
OP
Developer
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
1,708
Trophies
1
Age
40
XP
4,311
Country
United States
I wasn't talking about image search. Google Text Search gets take down notices all the time and complies with them, as they must.

I also was not talking about news.

Please educate yourself on some basic level before speculating as to how things work.

Citation needed. The link it not why google takes the content down, its for posting copyrighted blurbs with the link.
 

iriez

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2016
Messages
549
Trophies
0
Age
48
Website
www.xbins.org
XP
1,857
Country
United States
Whether a prosecutor decides to charge you or not, does not make what you did any less illegal. You are trying to defend open source software violating copyrights, while shitting on TX for doing the same. Atmosphere is 100% illegal, end of story. Whether Nintendo will ever decide to sue them is a different matter.

what ultimately determines whether a action was legal or illegal is the judicial ruling. Whether or not a prosecutor indicts you is irrelevant in determining whether your actions are legal or illegal.

I have already posted a link in the first page of this discussion to the eff which includes Court precedent on previous judicial rulings which validate the legality of atmosphere using reverse engineering. Simon also replied with specific context related to that reverse engineering, e.g. fair use case.

Saying something doesn't make it true. You keep saying it's illegal but no argument you've made so far seems to be true, e.g. you've not presented any evidence to support your claim.

So until you provide specific judicial rulings on scenarios similar enough to this we won't be able to narrow the gap on our disagreement here.
 

ghjfdtg

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
1,350
Trophies
1
XP
3,236
Country
So you are bitching about keys when there is actual real and proven copyright infringement in SX OS (certs and stolen code)? I can't speak for Atmosphere but SX OS can't be any more llegal than it is and the keys will not change the situation.
 

Tilde88

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
295
Trophies
0
Age
35
XP
1,058
Country
United States
Here's an idea.


Everyone shut the hell.up, and make a new forum. Go type all your bs in the sub forum. Leave this one for, idk, development?

Use PMs, use email, use fax. Use whatever the hell you want. Just everyone shut the crap, and o ly tall dev talk here ffs.

Every thread is either "help me I bricked and ignored backup" , or "help me I've read nothing, will read nothing, do everything for me", or "sx OS is bad I cant believe them" or "atmos is unfinished so it's bad, I cant believe them".

I remember when gbatemp was reputable. As of the last 2 years, I question why I keep coming here. Almost nothing of use is actually done or discussed here anymore.

Gross.
 

FAST6191

Techromancer
Editorial Team
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Messages
36,798
Trophies
3
XP
28,284
Country
United Kingdom
Here's an idea.


Everyone shut the hell.up, and make a new forum. Go type all your bs in the sub forum. Leave this one for, idk, development?

Use PMs, use email, use fax. Use whatever the hell you want. Just everyone shut the crap, and o ly tall dev talk here ffs.

Every thread is either "help me I bricked and ignored backup" , or "help me I've read nothing, will read nothing, do everything for me", or "sx OS is bad I cant believe them" or "atmos is unfinished so it's bad, I cant believe them".

I remember when gbatemp was reputable. As of the last 2 years, I question why I keep coming here. Almost nothing of use is actually done or discussed here anymore.

Gross.

But for the names I recall the same claims being made as far back as the late GBA era, and could probably go further but for the fact I was not here for it. Oh when it was just gateway and whatever else, now we have emulators and custom firmwares, oh all these R4 clones I remember when it was original R4/M3, EZFlash and Supercard and the only emulator was Ensata which nobody used,... technically top form GBA emulators existed from about day 0 thanks to info leaking beforehand but similar claims about the closeness and fun when it was not all flash carts that could store more than 4 ROMs at once and required a fair amount of fiddling or knowledge of third party tools to get working properly.

Similarly I would say this is something of a developer topic. Or is a discussion of the logic and rationale of what you are allowed to include (based mostly on risk aversion levels to lawsuits) should you wish to link or host various things on the site (one of the bigger discussion forums for it anywhere, one in which many or maybe most projects keep or have maintained guides and news threads) somehow now a developer issue?
 

linuxares

The inadequate, autocratic beast!
Global Moderator
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Messages
13,135
Trophies
2
XP
17,846
Country
Sweden
afaik that was a DMCA Abuse instance he even posted the letter showing a "Xortroll industries" as making the claim hmmmmm do we know of any user with that name? sounds familiar
Xortroll have already denied that claim. He was asleep when it happened. Also a user on a Discord took the credit for DMCA the githubs. I'm confused if they still haven't gone up.
 

smf

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
6,638
Trophies
2
XP
5,834
Country
United Kingdom
So I'm no law expert but this falls under the same as iOS jailbreaking. Where it's except under the DMCA and EUCD.

No. It's illegal under the DMCA, they made an explicit allowance for phones but purposefully decided against making an exception for consoles. At least Kosmos and ReiNX are also illegal, under the DMCA.

EUCD is more complicated as there are slightly different laws implemented in each country and AFAIK nothing has been tested for phones, but it was tested for flash carts and there have been lots of sellers who have lost court cases bought by nintendo.

Atmosphere at least adheres to regulations. Reverse engineering is protected speech under certain conditions. One of those conditions which has court precedent is inoperability. There are plenty of examples of this use case which can be exhibited in the switch hacking scene. Custom firmwares are what allow this inoperability.

https://www.eff.org/issues/coders/reverse-engineering-faq#faq4

Console hacking is not one of those conditions as it's seen as a huge can of worms by the courts, the eff have been fighting for it to be but have not been succesfull.

https://www.eff.org/pages/jailbreaking-not-crime-tell-copyright-office-free-your-devices

Technically you can reverse engineer it, but telling anyone how to bypass controls is not allowed.

https://www.eff.org/issues/dmca-rulemaking

I filed a counter-claim when it happened. And I emailed them about it friday, no response. Github support is just shit. I actually filed the counter-notice before they even took down the repos.

I find it ironic that console hackers stayed on github after microsoft bought it.

As previously stated, intent matters when it comes to prosecutorial action and success.

It would be heard as a civil case, they wouldn't be prosecuting. The bar is much lower, you only need to be 51% sure.

The intent would likely limit damages, but it's hard for anyone to argue they weren't aware that atmosphere was being used for piracy whether that was intentional or not as there are plenty of people here that are openly using it as such. As far as I know SciresM intended to write atmosphere and intended to release it on github.

You'll struggle like someone saying "I just closed my eyes and pushed my foot hard on the accelerator but I never meant to hurt anyone."

TX are on dodgier ground as they are profiting from it & their links to stargate (which claims to be down for maintenance...)

Therefore, the key seeds used in the original modules must be included for its function to be identical to the original.

The DMCA doesn't care about difficulties in re-implementing modules without permission no matter how unfair you think that is.
 
Last edited by smf,
  • Like
Reactions: iriez

FAST6191

Techromancer
Editorial Team
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Messages
36,798
Trophies
3
XP
28,284
Country
United Kingdom
I think their illegal too can carry a fine iirc
The reality of that is rather different.

The various DMCA claims are stuck on https://lumendatabase.org/

Do a search for this site if you like and see what got dropped. The entire time I have followed this sort of thing I have seen maybe two that had any kind of legs (though even then it was dubious), or at least things you might bring in front of a judge and not be afraid to get slapped for wasting court time.

Also I was delighted to find the other day that my user URL was in one such claim ( https://lumendatabase.org/notices/184344# , 55 on that. Modern URL schema makes it https://gbatemp.net/members/fast6191.32303/ if the redirect does not work ). I may never have got my own hate thread, much less one on another site (high fives p1ngpong again for that one), but that is something I care to hang my hat on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hippy dave

gizmomelb

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2006
Messages
926
Trophies
0
XP
1,647
Country
Australia
Xecuter can put legally questionable private key sources in their products in plain text because they are a Chinese manufacturer and distributor, which is to say that they generally don't give a shit about anyone's laws. Atmosphere however complies with most of civilized societies laws.

Nice @iriez openly stating China is not civilised. There's a few thousand years of history and a few billion people who beg to differ.

As for China not recognising USA copyright or intellectual property laws because it suits THEM better, it's not like that country is the only one to pick and choose which international agreements it adheres to is it? Cough.. Paris agreement for climate change. Cough. USA.
 

WiiUBricker

News Police
Banned
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Messages
7,827
Trophies
0
Location
Espresso
XP
7,485
Country
Argentina
People seem to forget that GBAtemp is neither hosted in the US nor does the owner reside in the US and thus isn't legally bound by the DMCA (which is an american thing). Just wanted to point that out since some people tend to quick draw their DMCA guns when it comes to copyright discussion on the temp.

Also I was delighted to find the other day that my user URL was in one such claim ( https://lumendatabase.org/notices/184344# , 55 on that. Modern URL schema makes it https://gbatemp.net/members/fast6191.32303/ if the redirect does not work ). I may never have got my own hate thread, much less one on another site (high fives p1ngpong again for that one), but that is something I care to hang my hat on.
Haha, that's awesome :rofl2:
 
  • Like
Reactions: thaikhoa

Site & Scene News

Popular threads in this forum

General chit-chat
Help Users
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    He said he had 3 different doctors apt this week, so he prob there. Something about gerbal extraction, I don't know.
    +1
  • ZeroT21 @ ZeroT21:
    bored, guess i'll spread more democracy
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    @K3Nv2 one more time you say such bs to @BakerMan and I'll smack you across the whole planet
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    Make sure you smack my booty daddy
    +1
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    telling him that my partner is luke...does he look like someone with such big ne
    eds?
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    do you really think I could stand living with someone like luke?
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    I suppose luke has "special needs" but he's not my partner, did you just say that to piss me off again?
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    besides I had bigger worries today
  • LeoTCK @ LeoTCK:
    but what do you know about that, you won't believe me anyways
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    @BigOnYa can answer that
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    BigOnYa already left the chat
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    Biginya
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    Auto correct got me, I'm on my tablet, i need to turn that shit off
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    With other tabs open you perv
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    I'm actually in my shed, bout to cut 2-3 acres of grass, my back yard.
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    I use to have a guy for that thanks richard
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    I use my tablet to stream to a bluetooth speaker when in shed. iHeartRadio, FlyNation
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    While the victims are being buried
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    Grave shovel
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    Nuh those goto the edge of the property (maybe just on the other side of)
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    On the neighbors side
    +1
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    Yup, by the weird smelly green bushy looking plants.
  • Xdqwerty @ Xdqwerty:
    Water park was quite fun
    Xdqwerty @ Xdqwerty: Water park was quite fun