How do you feel about abortion?

[netovsk]

As a rule of thumb as soon as it can do anything a living organism can do it's a living organism and it becomes murder

I just murdered a fly a few days ago.

Now honestly I think it's too easy for us men to discuss about that. Are we the ones carrying the fetus inside us?

Hell many men aren't even responsible enough to provide for their children. They just move away from any obligations as a father.

A pregnant woman has little choice and still risks hurting her career or plans, amongst other things.

Shouldn't we discuss mass adoption of abandoned children before we decide if women should be treated as criminals for abortion?

If you found out your mother aborted before she had you, would you be ok with her being arrested for years?

 

[Lacius]

Males shouldn't be able to force an abortion but they should be able to give up visitation and child support and the mother should have the same opertunity both parties should agree on abortion

Males do not and should not have any legal say-so regarding whether or not a woman can have an abortion. It's not his body.

Now honestly I think it's too easy for us men to discuss about that. Are we the ones carrying the fetus inside us?

Hell many men aren't even responsible enough to provide for their children. They just move away from any obligations as a father.

A pregnant woman has little choice and still risks hurting her career or plans, amongst other things.

Shouldn't we discuss mass adoption of abandoned children before we decide if women should be treated as criminals for abortion?

If you found out your mother aborted before she had you, would you be ok with her being arrested for years?

If men could get pregnant, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Abortion would be as uncontroversial as the legal consumption of salads.

 

[tunip3]

I just murdered a fly a few days ago.

Now honestly I think it's too easy for us men to discuss about that. Are we the ones carrying the fetus inside us?

Hell many men aren't even responsible enough to provide for their children. They just move away from any obligations as a father.

A pregnant woman has little choice and still risks hurting her career or plans, amongst other things.

Shouldn't we discuss mass adoption of abandoned children before we decide if women should be treated as criminals for abortion?

If you found out your mother aborted before she had you, would you be ok with her being arrested for years?

I never said it was ok heust

Males do not and should not have any legal say-so regarding whether or not a woman can have an abortion. It's not his body.


If men could get pregnant, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Abortion would be as uncontroversial as the legal consumption of salads.

You are killing his child though

 

[Lacius]

You are killing his child though

A couple of points:

1. It's not a child. It's an embryo or a fetus.
2. Even if it were a fully formed four year-old boy who could say Hi Daddy, the mother has a right to bodily autonomy. You can't force her to carry the man's child anymore than you can force her to give her kidney to his child. The man has no legal rights regarding the pregnancy.

 

[tunip3]

A couple of points:

1. It's not a child. It's an embryo or a fetus.
2. Even if it were a fully formed four year-old boy who could say Hi Daddy, the mother has a right to bodily autonomy. You can't force her to carry the man's child anymore than you can force her to give her kidney to his child. The man has no legal rights regarding the pregnancy.

Fine fucking future child are you some fucking child killer who wants parents to make his life easier

 

[Lacius]

Fine fucking future child are you some fucking child killer who wants parents to make his life easier

I didn't understand a word of what you were trying to say.

 

[tunip3]

I didn't understand a word of what you were trying to say.

I said I meant future child and you probably know it and your so pro abortion you sound like a child killer who wants parents to help

 

[netovsk]

Fine fucking future child are you some fucking child killer who wants parents to make his life easier

You see this is what is so hard about defending individual liberties.

You just labeled whoever is pro-choice a "child killer".

It's hard to have a healthy discussion when it goes this way.

So if I defend legal recreational drugs does that make me a hardcore stoner?

Or maybe just a concerned citizen that came to realize that the war against drugs failed?

 

[tunip3]

You see this is what is so hard about defending individual liberties.

You just labeled whoever is pro-choice a "child killer".

It's hard to have a healthy discussion when it goes this way.

So if I defend legal recreational drugs does that make me a hardcore stoner?

Or maybe just a concerned citizen that came to realize that the war against drugs failed?

I'm pro choice but lol he forces it down your throat saying it's not your child and shit like that I proposed a solution that allows for abortion and allows the woman's career to progress

 

[Lacius]

I said I meant future child and you probably know it and your so pro abortion you sound like a child killer who wants parents to help

I don't want children to die. I don't believe a fetus is a child.

I also don't believe that a person's bodily autonomy should be violated. This means a woman can't be forced by the state and/or father to carry a pregnancy to term, and since a fetus isn't a person, it's not that big a deal. This also means a person cannot be forced by the state to donate one's organs.

I'm pro choice but lol he forces it down your throat saying it's not your child and shit like that I proposed a solution that allows for abortion and allows the woman's career to progress

If you're going to say a fetus is a child, you need to show me. Otherwise, what I'm saying isn't terribly controversial, by definition.

If a person wants to use a religious belief to argue that a fetus is a child, that's fine, and I'm probably not going to argue against that, but we don't legislate religious beliefs onto others, so there's no need for me to argue against it.

 

[tunip3]

I don't want children to die. I don't believe a fetus is a child.

I also don't believe that a person's bodily autonomy should be violated. This means a woman can't be forced by the state and/or father to carry a pregnancy to term, and since a fetus isn't a person, it's not that big a deal. This also means a person cannot be forced by the state to donate one's organs.


If you're going to say a fetus is a child, you need to show me. Otherwise, what I'm saying isn't terribly controversial, by definition.

If a person wants to use a religious belief to argue that a fetus is a child, that's fine, and I'm probably not going to argue against that, but we don't legislate religious beliefs onto others, so there's no need for me to argue against it.

All I said was a soon as living organism does something a living organism does its alive

 

[Lacius]

All I said was a soon as living organism does something a living organism does its alive

Are you saying that we should have laws protecting all living organisms no matter what? I don't follow.

Edit: That's also not all you said. You advocated for some crazy policies, including letting a man choose if a woman has an abortion, and that and other things are what I responded to.

 

[Chary]

It takes two to tango, so both parties are responsible. But at the end of the day, the guy doesn't have to basically suffer for 9 months straight. So, much as the male might want the kid, it doesn't matter, even if it's sad, because the female should totally have the right to control what goes down in her body.

Really though, they shoulda used contraceptives from the outset in this hypothetical situation. Abortion makes me uncomfortable, but a third party controlling what I'm able to theoretically do with my body makes me even more uncomfortable.

 

[tunip3]

Are you saying that we should have laws protecting all living organisms no matter what? I don't follow.

Edit: That's also not all you said. You advocated for some crazy policies, including letting a man choose if a woman has an abortion, and that and other things are what I responded to.

How do you feel about this https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/feb/10/medicalscience.research
Tbh honest I think something like this https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjACegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw06qMdV_iK79QzIbZ6m3NbB would be ideal as well the father can have a child but the mother doesn't have to go through child birth

 

[TotalInsanity4]

How do you feel about this https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/feb/10/medicalscience.research
Tbh honest I think something like this https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjACegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw06qMdV_iK79QzIbZ6m3NbB would be ideal as well the father can have a child but the mother doesn't have to go through child birth

That's the ideal scenario, but only if pro-lifers re-instate the ability to remove a fetus intact and the father pledges a legal oath to raise the child as his own even if he is a single parent

 

[lordkaos]

if people care so much about potential life, then why don't they make the same ruckus about fertilized eggs being freezed in cryogenic labs, most of them won't be used.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

if people care so much about potential life, then why don't they make the same ruckus about fertilized eggs being freezed in cryogenic labs, most of them won't be used.

A lot of them do. And even if they don't there's still the argument that they COULD be viable, still. That "potential" hasn't been squandered

 

[RandomUser]

I'm a strong proponent of contraception and will tout its efficacy all day long if provoked, but I'd like to hear about your magical contraception method that is 100% effective, easily accessible to all socioeconomic backgrounds, and effectively ends any need for an abortion. Two quick points:

1. That's not going to happen, as a world with such a method of contraception still doesn't account for cases of pregnancy that were initially intended, becoming pregnant during a sexual encounter against one's will, etc.
2. If abstinence is your magical contraception method, you're mistaken. It might work for some people, and it's a perfectly fine thing to choose for oneself, but as far as its efficacy on society, it's one of the worst forms of birth control. It was also never widely practiced.

There is another option, but it would violate the bodily autonomy that you have been preaching.

Ignoring for a second that the time personhood begins is irrelevant because one's right to bodily autonomy still exists, I have a couple points to make:

1. We don't make policy based on imaginary things that might or might not exist.
2. If you can't answer the question about when something becomes a child, then you probably shouldn't advocate for policy that's contingent upon such a definition. If you're going to impose restrictions on reproductive rights, such a classification needs to be defined. Depending on how you answer the question, pulling out could be illegal.

1. We also don't make policy based on the unknown either.
2. The same could be said about you, you shouldn't promote, see two can play this game, it goes both ways. Because I doubt you know either.

Are you saying now that it's not a child before 22-24 weeks of pregnancy? I'm confused where you stand.

Who me? Of course not. The law did or whom ever wrote the law. I didn't create the law, I don't know why you thought I did. Like I have stated before, a law is better then no law, making compromises here I guess.

You seem to have misunderstood the comparison. The organ donor is analogous to the pregnant woman, not the fetus. The person who needs the organ transplant to live is analogous to the fetus.

That true, but in this case it doesn't help both parties here, the fetus has to die. In organ donation, the organ(s) are not wasted and put to use, by another person needing the said transplant. But if you put it that way, I guess there isn't much of a difference.

As I said above, abstinence is a perfectly fine choice to make. However, we've evolved to have sex, and it's a good thing one shouldn't deprive oneself of if he or she wants to have it. Considering the biological drive that exists to have sex, it's unrealistic to say the existence of abstinence as a choice is reason enough not to have legal abortion. It works for some individuals, but abstinence is a failure globally.

You're pro abortion, good for you. More power to you I guess.

You skipped a lot of my questions about when something becomes a child, rationalizing a worldview that forbids abortion but allows for voluntary organ donation, etc.

Well, we sure have come to a complete circle. Yes, I have answered these questions, you're simply refusing to acknowledge it or just don't like the answer.
Good day sir.

You... Actually think there was a time when abstinence was actually practiced?...

Okay, after re-reading my post, I realized I didn't word it very well.
But yes, perhaps back in ancient times and mostly for religious belief.

 

[JellyPerson]

Even if it were a fully formed four year-old boy who could say Hi Daddy, the mother has a right to bodily autonomy.

b-b-b-but lacius-sama does this mean i can legally kill my 4 year old child if i were a mother with a four year old kid?

 

[FAST6191]

That true, but in this case it doesn't help both parties here, the fetus has to die. In organ donation, the organ(s) are not wasted and put to use, by another person needing the said transplant. But if you put it that way, I guess there isn't much of a difference.

So we have a dead foetus. Is that something of value that was lost?

"As I said above, abstinence is a perfectly fine choice to make. However, we've evolved to have sex, and it's a good thing one shouldn't deprive oneself of if he or she wants to have it. Considering the biological drive that exists to have sex, it's unrealistic to say the existence of abstinence as a choice is reason enough not to have legal abortion. It works for some individuals, but abstinence is a failure globally."
You're pro abortion, good for you. More power to you I guess.

How is that a useful response to the quoted part?

Okay, after re-reading my post, I realized I didn't word it very well.
But yes, perhaps back in ancient times and mostly for religious belief.

Ignoring the perhaps part you think fucking went out of style at one point?