Hacking Mario Kart 8 Mods

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Chadderz

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Chadderz, I agree that it only takes a few second to access the browser. However remember that it requires an internet connection of some sort, plus common users interested in homebrew will not know to block updates by their router. And yeah I know the exploit can be used with actually connecting to the internet, but again most common users will not know how to set that up.
I agree about the internet connection being a potential problem, but I doubt it would be for most people. Certainly a connection free exploit would be nice. Again, I would say it doesn't warrant the risk of creating/using the persistent exploit. Blocking updates could be made as simple as putting a manual entry in the DNS settings on the console, no further action required, which is something that is inexperienced user friendly.
 

marcan_troll

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The team had to do some hardware otherwise GPIOGECKO would not have been possible. Someone had to find the gpio testpoints and registers so you could bit bang the miso mosi clk cs (4 pins). (6 pins total w/ vcc and gnd)
That's not a "hardware hack" in the sense of it being part of an attack/exploit. That was just a way of getting faster I/O to mini. We had the non-invasive FTDI comms over USB (GhettOHCI) before that - GPIOGecko was just faster at data transfer. We investigated hardware-related actual attacks but didn't yield anything useful from them.


I have to say I quite strongly disagree with the idea of ever making a persistent exploit. I personally really didn't like the fact that the Homebrew Channel was persistent on Wii as it greatly increases the risk of bricking to go anywhere near the file system, and worse it's trivially detectable leading to a lot of paranoia about warranties or detection on the vWii for example.
Volatile hacks have their place, and I wish more people had the kind of mindset to be paranoid about any persistent modifications. Our goal with HBC was to provide an option for the many people who do want persistence - to avoid the need for any other system modifications - because we know we're paranoid enough to do a good job at making a safe installation process, and we would've been able to make a low-level cleaner had it ever been necessary. If there's one thing about fail0verflow I'm very proud of, it's our care for the safety of our users' consoles. I truly think we do a better job at that particular aspect than anyone else releasing persistent hacks out there. I'd say we had pretty good success; although there's no stopping some people from doing silly things to their consoles, I think the vast majority found dangerous modifications unnecessary, and low-level recovery tools like BootMii-boot2 have probably helped recover many otherwise permanent bricks.

As far as I'm concerned, now we have a ppc kernel exploit we can do anything we would want to do with legitimate homebrew, loading an application as if it were a real one.
You're still bound by what IOSU lets you do, and by the identity that it assigns to you (e.g. the title ID currently loaded). Depending on what you want to do, this may or may not be appropriate. For example, I still think that a Linux-kernel-based ecosystem would be much more productive in the long run, but making Linux run on top of IOSU for things like TCP/IP is just not going to happen.

Going any deeper just makes it easier for pirates for the sake of the slight convenience of having a Homebrew button on the menu.
Not necessarily. Unlike the Wii, the Wii U actually verifies titles on load - on the Wii, persistence was trivial, you just install things. On the Wii U, it would have to take the form of an at-boot exploit. It's entirely plausible that you could exploit the kernel or the system menu via configuration files on boot, without having to touch IOSU. This would be equivalent to the browser exploit, except with persistence.

I'm not even particularly fussed about the common key, I've certainly not had access to it or any decrypted binaries (though I know the team behind the browser exploit did). I would much rather sit through the 20 extra seconds it would take to go into the browser and click a bookmark, so I'm certainly not looking for an IOSU exploit.
Sure - assuming Nintendo doesn't do a better job of following up on exploits this time around, the browser is a pretty good vector, all things considered (much better than e.g. game exploits on the Wii). But I wouldn't put all my hopes on that alone. It's going to be patched sooner or later, and newer games will require newer system updates.

True, but it's not like we'd be free to leave updates on either way, just like Wii. For the longest time there was no Homebrew on 4.3.
What? 4.3 was released on June 21, 2010, while HBC 1.0.7 (with an IOS exploit for 4.3) came out on July 26th, 2010 - and that lag was more about prepping (and thoroughly testing) a release with lots of unrelated changes and updates, and less about the actual exploit. Meanwhile, game exploits still worked as an initial vector, until Letterbomb was released the next year. I don't think one month of holding off on updating to 4.3 qualifies as "the longest time".

Furthermore we could stockpile Browser and other medium exploits ready for the next update. I really don't think it puts us in a bad position, you're at the mercy of updates regardless.
You should always have at least one stockpiled full-compromise (at least as good as your current one - i.e. at least through to the kernel) exploit before releasing anything - and you should strongly prefer one that can be ported blind to a new version instead of relying on known offsets. This allows you to get binaries for an updated version to develop the next exploit once it is released. Pretty much every successful exploit team (e.g. the folks doing iPhone jailbreaks) works like this. This is also where the common key helps - unlike on iPhones, where the iPhone "common key" (GID key) is burned into hardware and nobody has ever been able to extract it, the common key is readily extractable on a Wii U with the right kind of system compromise, and this allows you to port your stockpiled exploits white-box instead of black-box.
 

Sammi Husky

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I don't mean to be persistent or off topic, but considering the very talented people in this thread it's my best place to ask lol. Nobody...has any good information or maybe a place to start in regards to this kinda stuff?

I mean i do reverse engineer files, as well as asm routines in the wii and write tools and such in c# or c++ depending on the needs..but that's where my knowledge stops really. :( any pointers are greatly appreciated..i hope to one day be able to help out with this, or at least with future projects, future consoles, etc etc
 
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daicon

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So, you're saying that one way or another, there will be a means of doing so, just that we can't use the key method, right?
Means we would need a real-life Solid Snake to infiltrate Nintendo Headquarters and retrieve the private key
 

Chadderz

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Volatile hacks have their place, and I wish more people had the kind of mindset to be paranoid about any persistent modifications. Our goal with HBC was to provide an option for the many people who do want persistence - to avoid the need for any other system modifications - because we know we're paranoid enough to do a good job at making a safe installation process, and we would've been able to make a low-level cleaner had it ever been necessary. If there's one thing about fail0verflow I'm very proud of, it's our care for the safety of our users' consoles. I truly think we do a better job at that particular aspect than anyone else releasing persistent hacks out there. I'd say we had pretty good success; although there's no stopping some people from doing silly things to their consoles, I think the vast majority found dangerous modifications unnecessary, and low-level recovery tools like BootMii-boot2 have probably helped recover many otherwise permanent bricks.
Absolutely; I'm certainly not criticising f0f, you guys are the pros, and you succeeded in not bricking people who're sensible. What I'm getting at through is that persistence was the default, and people who want to stay purely volatile had to really work for it, which I don't think was necessary, and certainly won't be this time.

You're still bound by what IOSU lets you do, and by the identity that it assigns to you (e.g. the title ID currently loaded). Depending on what you want to do, this may or may not be appropriate. For example, I still think that a Linux-kernel-based ecosystem would be much more productive in the long run, but making Linux run on top of IOSU for things like TCP/IP is just not going to happen.
With a ppc kernel exploit though, you can assume the ID of any loadable title. I'd be very surprised if that stopped you from doing anything that legitimate Homebrew would want to offer, as it allows access to all the interesting device hardware, configuring the console, etc. I'm not entirely convinced you couldn't write Linux on top of IOSU, the abstractions are all basically the same, but it would require quite some plumbing, that's for sure. Either way, given we have a very nice and defined interface to the hardware in the IOSU, I don't see why we wouldn't want to build all our Homebrew on top of it, and therefore we don't need to attack it.

Sure - assuming Nintendo doesn't do a better job of following up on exploits this time around, the browser is a pretty good vector, all things considered (much better than e.g. game exploits on the Wii). But I wouldn't put all my hopes on that alone. It's going to be patched sooner or later, and newer games will require newer system updates.
True; their past performance certainly lulls us into a false sense of security, but once you're in at all, it becomes a lot easier to cross that bridge when we come to it.

What? 4.3 was released on June 21, 2010, while HBC 1.0.7 (with an IOS exploit for 4.3) came out on July 26th, 2010 - and that lag was more about prepping (and thoroughly testing) a release with lots of unrelated changes and updates, and less about the actual exploit. Meanwhile, game exploits still worked as an initial vector, until Letterbomb was released the next year. I don't think one month of holding off on updating to 4.3 qualifies as "the longest time".
Ah, I clearly have my facts wrong then I must admit we didn't update for a long time, which mentally I put down to lack of exploit. The point I was trying to make though is that persistence does not fundamentally make overcoming updates easier.

You should always have at least one stockpiled full-compromise (at least as good as your current one - i.e. at least through to the kernel) exploit before releasing anything - and you should strongly prefer one that can be ported blind to a new version instead of relying on known offsets. This allows you to get binaries for an updated version to develop the next exploit once it is released. Pretty much every successful exploit team (e.g. the folks doing iPhone jailbreaks) works like this. This is also where the common key helps - unlike on iPhones, where the iPhone "common key" (GID key) is burned into hardware and nobody has ever been able to extract it, the common key is readily extractable on a Wii U with the right kind of system compromise, and this allows you to port your stockpiled exploits white-box instead of black-box.
Sound advice, I hope some of the people demanding a release of my work now consider this. On the point of the common key, again, cross that bridge when you come to it, if you need it for an exploit later down the line, you can get it then.
 

WiiCube_2013

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Wow the thread's really gone a long way.

I read about this a bit on Kotaku and it seems like this MK8 mod is about adding new tracks to the game which I for one would be happy because god knows replaying the same tracks over and over again is a tedious process.
 

crono141

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True, but it's not like we'd be free to leave updates on either way, just like Wii. For the longest time there was no Homebrew on 4.3. Furthermore we could stockpile Browser and other medium exploits ready for the next update. I really don't think it puts us in a bad position, you're at the mercy of updates regardless.
Seems to me, at least, that a permanent exploit like hbc has the same cons as just depending on the browser exploit, and the browser exploit is missing all the pro's of a hbc.
 
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crono141

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Absolutely; I'm certainly not criticising f0f, you guys are the pros, and you succeeded in not bricking people who're sensible. What I'm getting at through is that persistence was the default, and people who want to stay purely volatile had to really work for it, which I don't think was necessary, and certainly won't be this time.


With a ppc kernel exploit though, you can assume the ID of any loadable title. I'd be very surprised if that stopped you from doing anything that legitimate Homebrew would want to offer, as it allows access to all the interesting device hardware, configuring the console, etc. I'm not entirely convinced you couldn't write Linux on top of IOSU, the abstractions are all basically the same, but it would require quite some plumbing, that's for sure. Either way, given we have a very nice and defined interface to the hardware in the IOSU, I don't see why we wouldn't want to build all our Homebrew on top of it, and therefore we don't need to attack it.


True; their past performance certainly lulls us into a false sense of security, but once you're in at all, it becomes a lot easier to cross that bridge when we come to it.


Ah, I clearly have my facts wrong then I must admit we didn't update for a long time, which mentally I put down to lack of exploit. The point I was trying to make though is that persistence does not fundamentally make overcoming updates easier.


Sound advice, I hope some of the people demanding a release of my work now consider this. On the point of the common key, again, cross that bridge when you come to it, if you need it for an exploit later down the line, you can get it then.
I think that most people who've chimed in don't want the exploit made public, just shared with other teams who are also looking for exploits. I for one don't want our only vector revealed without having a backup or two, and sharing what you have with folks of like mind also searching for exploits would be overall productive for getting any sort of homebrew scene off the ground.
 
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FusionGamer

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I'm excited about this. For me, this means mods beyond Kart. I've wanted to do some custom Pikmin Battle maps for a long time but couldn't due to the fact that the maps are actually "puzzles" and the hardware available. This time around, the maps are actually 3D models. It'd be interesting to see a HD version of Carpet Plain, or even play in story mode levels. The old levels are easy enough to recreate.


Chadderz

You think you could do the same demonstration thing with Pikmin? (changing Mission/Bingo Battle map names, music to non-Mission/Bingo Battle music, etc?) Not that I want to see it "right now", but it'd be nice to see a non Mario Kart game modded by both of you. Do it whenever you want; that's what I'm trying to say.
 

Kippykip

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Whoa! They have experience with a prehistoric platform that a LOT of people do as well! That proves they're trustworthy and proves that they hacked a previously untouched console thoroughly!

"Homebrew" (aka piracy and online cheating) can kiss my ass. There's plenty of more convenient/powerful consoles or platforms to develop emulators or indie games for. People want "homebrew" to pirate things or cheat in games.

Because it's not like it's possible to edit a video as it's happening or anything...

I only want homebrew so there can be Doom on Wii U with the map on the gamepad and everything
and maybe play movies and emulators otherwise not too interested

The game looks MUCH better in a video review than it does in person. In person, you can see the blatant pixelation in the background. Nintendo didn't even apply any sort of smoothing algorithm, so it's basically rough, blinking sprites highly visible when you look into the distance.

Well blur filters look completely horrible if you think about it.
E.g. try to play an NES emulator at 320x240 on a modern monitor. The game looks freaking terrible however on an old monitor without blurring filters it looks a lot better.
Kinda like if you saw a small imaged upscaled, it would still look better without filters (Unless it's something like hq4x or something)
720p>1080p looks fine as long as it's not blurred

EDIT: Whoops, double post. didn't realise it was the same thread
 

Vappy

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and the cheating has begun X.x

If you actually checked the video description, you'd see that all he's done here is have the ghost for one track play over another. Not really any cheating potential there. Really, their team seems a lot more reserved with regards to sharing usable examples of their work, so if and when cheating in Mario Kart 8 does happen, I think it's a lot more likely to come from someone else first. Consider how Smealum was, as far as I know, the first one to publicly show Pokemon X/Y hacks, but no cheating has come of that because he hasn't released anything of it yet, and I believe the devs behind Pokegen are making their own progress on that front.
 

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If you actually checked the video description, you'd see that all he's done here is have the ghost for one track play over another. Not really any cheating potential there. Really, their team seems a lot more reserved with regards to sharing usable examples of their work, so if and when cheating in Mario Kart 8 does happen, I think it's a lot more likely to come from someone else first. Consider how Smealum was, as far as I know, the first one to publicly show Pokemon X/Y hacks, but no cheating has come of that because he hasn't released anything of it yet, and I believe the devs behind Pokegen are making their own progress on that front.

if you actually had checked the video description, you'd see, that what he is showing in the video is an implication for a lot of possible hacks/cheats possible with chadder's exploit

Of course, this has interesting side effects: Any and all hacks are saved into a ghost and will sync on an unhacked MK8. This includes, but is not limited to, item hacks, coin count hacks, lap count hacks, and lap split hacks, boundary check hacks, checkpoint mods, etc. For a nice example, monitor my coin count throughout the run. Those coin leaps are saved into the ghost. This makes it EXTREMELY HARD to detect subtle hacks, like miniature speed mods, as the ghosts will still sync. But the more obvious hacks could be pre-detected by Nintendo before the ghost even hit Miiverse, so it's got its advantages. But the competitive TT community could use to know this information for future reference to aid in cheater catching; do not take what you see at face value, even if a ghost syncs on your Wii U.

he is mentioning using this information to CATCH cheaters, however this can also backfire, as this may be the very foundation to enable cheating
 

FusionGamer

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"Homebrew" (aka piracy and online cheating) can kiss my ass. There's plenty of more convenient/powerful consoles or platforms to develop emulators or indie games for. People want "homebrew" to pirate things or cheat in games.


LOL I'm a pirate and cheater for turning my Wii into a DVD player.
 
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