U.S. Supreme Court set to overturn Roe v. Wade abortion rights decision

[Lacius]

You also brought up a good point in the previous post that abortions are just not the womens body as there is the male who impregnated her and the baby itself that are involved.

In which post did I say a woman's decision whether or not to get an abortion had to do with anything other than the woman's right to bodily autonomy? The father and the fetus are irrelevant.

I just think we as a society shouldn't be killing babies

Good news: Neither fetuses nor embryos are babies.

It would also be irrelevant if they were. It wouldn't change anything about a right to bodily autonomy. If I were going to die unless I got your kidney, you have a right to bodily autonomy and a right to say no. That doesn't mean you murdered me.

I agree that both issues (vaccines and abortion) should be a personal choice and not have anything to do with the government.

A person should be free to choose whether or not to get an abortion and whether or not to get a vaccine. However, there are circumstances in which vaccination might be required (working at a hospital, public school, etc.). Requiring a vaccination in these circumstances is not a violation of one's right to bodily autonomy. You don't have a right to, for example, work in a nursing home while unvaccinated. It's in the interest of public health, and you could always choose to not work there.

but that doesn't mean we need laws legalizing abortions or making abortions illegal.

If there is no law that abortion is illegal, then it's legal.

 

[Valwinz]

I find it funny many here don't bring up the fact that abortion is very restrictive in Europe and that the US one is closer to how it is in North Korea and china

 

[Lacius]

I find it funny many here don't bring up the fact that abortion is very restrictive in Europe and that the US one is closer to how it is in North Korea and china

From Wikipedia:
95% of European women of reproductive age live in countries which allow abortion on demand or for broad socioeconomic reasons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe

What are you talking about? Is this like that time yesterday when you mistakenly said a majority of Americans are in favor of overturning Roe?

 

[AleronIves]

If abortion is murder, then of course the persons conducting the procedure and handing the pills are an accessory. I don't think that people on either side of the issue would disagree.

The contradiction is that anti-abortion advocates claim abortion is murder, but they generally do not seem to support treating the people involved in an abortion as murderers. Even the now infamous Texas abortion law that encourages people to snitch on each other only punishes the doctor who performs the abortion; the woman is not held accountable. Either abortion is murder, or it isn't. The fact that most anti-abortion advocates aren't calling for prosecution of these supposed baby murderers suggests they don't fully believe their own arguments.

 

[Valwinz]

From Wikipedia:
95% of European women of reproductive age live in countries which allow abortion on demand or for broad socioeconomic reasons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Europe

What are you talking about? Is this like that time yesterday when you mistakenly said a majority of Americans are in favor of overturning Roe?

i love how you twisted that since is not even what i say

nobody is talking about bans now find me all the Europe countries where you can abort all the way to the 9th month

 

[Deleted member 586536]

nobody is talking about bans now find me all the Europe countries where you can abort all the way to the 9th month

Most abortions happen within 3 months
https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm
the latest you can have an abortion is 24 weeks, which is 5.5 months.
No one is getting an abortion so late that the fetus is developed enough to the point it can be considered a full proper baby.

 

[Lacius]

i love how you twisted that since is not even what i say

nobody is talking about bans now find me all the Europe countries where you can abort all the way to the 9th month

Are you suggesting it's legal anywhere in the United States to abort a fetus at nine months?

 

[KennyAtom]

honestly, I understand both sides.

Women feel as if they're losing more rights with this, people feel as if this will get the ball rolling to ban gay people and trans people and such, and planned parenthood will no longer receive free tax dollars from americans. (that last part was a joke, but it is partially serious as well)

Pro Life people don't like seeing babies die, whether they're fetuses, embryos, or an actual baby.

Is there an obvious situation to this that will satisfy both sides? Unfortunately not. Repeal Roe V Wade, and the women and lgbtq+ get angry and upset. Keep Roe V Wade in place, and pro lifers are upset since babies are dying, or babies in their view at least.

Basically issues such as this are complex, cannot be discussed easily, and lead to flame wars such as this. I think we should all agree to disagree and get along, you know? Anger never helps anyone, kindness does.

 

[Lacius]

honestly, I understand both sides.

Women feel as if they're losing more rights with this, people feel as if this will get the ball rolling to ban gay people and trans people and such, and planned parenthood will no longer receive free tax dollars from americans. (that last part was a joke, but it is partially serious as well)

Pro Life people don't like seeing babies die, whether they're fetuses, embryos, or an actual baby.

Is there an obvious situation to this that will satisfy both sides? Unfortunately not. Repeal Roe V Wade, and the women and lgbtq+ get angry and upset. Keep Roe V Wade in place, and pro lifers are upset since babies are dying, or babies in their view at least.

A solution isn't hard. If you don't like abortion, don't get an abortion. One's delicate religious sensibilities aren't reason to violate a woman's right to bodily autonomy.

Also, generally speaking, Planned Parenthood gets zero tax dollars for abortion.

Basically issues such as this are complex, cannot be discussed easily, and lead to flame wars such as this. I think we should all agree to disagree and get along, you know? Anger never helps anyone, kindness does.

Do you know what actually never helps? Platitudes. This is a serious topic, and people's rights are being taken away. Pro-choice people would love nothing more than to "agree to disagree."

 

[KennyAtom]

A solution isn't hard. If you don't like abortion, don't get an abortion. One's delicate religious sensibilities aren't reason to violate a woman's right to bodily autonomy.

Also, generally speaking, Planned Parenthood gets zero tax dollars for abortion.

I mean that solution isn't really a solution for the other side, it won't make the other side happy.

Also I swore i heard somewhere that PP got tax dollars, but I was most likely wrong.

Do you know what actually never helps? Platitudes. This is a serious topic, and people's rights are being taken away. Pro-choice people would love nothing more than to "agree to disagree."

Not to be rude, but is removing a baby from the womb really a right in itself?

Also fine, I won't try to be nice, I'll be a complete dickhead.

 

[The Catboy]

Women feel as if they're losing more rights with this,

They are though because this law actually protected women and AFABs (assigned female at birth) people from government interference in their lives. It protected their body autonomy and protected their medical freedom from the government. Removing that protection will only result in government interference in the lives of the people. This will become a loss of rights all to "protect" a clump of cells.

Not to be rude, but is removing a baby from the womb really a right in itself?

A fetus is not a baby. You don't look at an egg in your fridge and call it a chicken. You don't look at an acorn and call it a tree. A fetus is not a baby.

 

[tabzer]

The contradiction is that anti-abortion advocates claim abortion is murder, but they generally do not seem to support treating the people involved in an abortion as murderers. Even the now infamous Texas abortion law that encourages people to snitch on each other only punishes the doctor who performs the abortion; the woman is not held accountable. Either abortion is murder, or it isn't. The fact that most anti-abortion advocates aren't calling for prosecution of these supposed baby murderers suggests they don't fully believe their own arguments.

I can see how it appears, but I personally think it is a matter of exposure. It's easier to make and see media of protestors harassing the women walking into an abortion clinic. The women are simply more vulnerable and easier to single out or target. I am pretty sure if the doctors had the same exposure, you'd be seeing that too. If you find someone who thinks it's okay to perform an abortion, but not okay to get one, that would appear to be an inconsistency. I've never knowingly met or communicated with such a person myself.

 

[Lacius]

I mean that solution isn't really a solution for the other side, it won't make the other side happy.

That's like saying the solution to the topic of same-sex marriage (make it legal) isn't sufficient because one side would be unhappy that same-sex marriage exists. The solution is to have legal same-sex marriage, and those who are against it can just not get gay married. It doesn't have to affect them, and isn't rocket science.

Also I swore i heard somewhere that PP got tax dollars, but I was most likely wrong.

It's generally against US law for tax dollars to go towards abortion. You heard wrong.

Not to be rude, but is removing a baby from the womb really a right in itself?

The right to bodily autonomy is a right in itself. I should be able to do whatever I want to my body, and a woman should have as much of a right to terminate a pregnancy as I have the right to refuse to donate an organ to someone.

Also fine, I won't try to be nice, I'll be a complete dickhead.

It's admirable to want to be nice, but telling people to "just get along" and acting as though both sides are equal is wholly unhelpful.

 

[tabzer]

The right to bodily autonomy is a right in itself. I should be able to do whatever I want to my body, and a woman should have as much of a right to terminate a pregnancy as I have the right to refuse to donate an organ to someone.

The false-equivalency here exists on a couple of levels. I’m not sure about the laws surrounding, but I wouldn’t find it very strange for a doctor to refuse the removal and discarding of a healthy kidney based on ethical reasons. Also, I don’t think you can take a kidney back from someone after you donated it.

The laws surrounding bodily autonomy aren’t designed to reflect nature, but to promote and perpetuate ideals. The fact is that the developing human does not have rights, at certain stages, and is among a top concern for those on the pro-life side of the debate.

 

[Lacius]

but I wouldn’t find it very strange for a doctor to refuse the removal and discarding of a healthy kidney based on ethical reasons.

I wouldn't either. I didn't mention any such thing.

Also, I don’t think you can take a kidney back from someone after you donated it.

And pregnancy can have have irreparable effects on the human body, and it can even kill you. What is your point?

The fact is that the developing human does not have rights, at certain stages, and is among a top concern for those on the pro-life side of the debate.

An embryo or fetus is not a person, and even if it were a person with rights, that wouldn't include the right to violate a person's right to bodily autonomy. A person shouldn't be able to force me to give them one of my kidneys, and a fetus shouldn't be able to force a woman to carry it to term (or more accurately, a state shouldn't be able to force either of these things).

I hope that clears things up.

 

[Iamapirate]

We have to thank Trump for his selection of justices but also RBG for not retiring so we could get this based decision.

 

[Deleted member 559230]

We have to thank Trump for his selection of justices but also RBG for not retiring so we could get this based decision.

Trump sure did a lot of good while he was in office. It's a shame Biden won, but there's always the next election!

 

[Valwinz]

Are you suggesting it's legal anywhere in the United States to abort a fetus at nine months?

are you going to answer my question still waiting for the country thats allows it in europe

 

[Lacius]

We have to thank Trump for his selection of justices but also RBG for not retiring so we could get this based decision.

Yep, those are two people anti-choice people have to thank. Also, the following:

1. An unrepresentative Senate that skews Republican while the country doesn't.
2. Mitch McConnell shamelessly and hypocritically stealing a Supreme Court seat.
3. An undemocratic Electoral College that resulted in 5/6 of the Republican-appointed Supreme Court justices being appointed by presidents who didn't win the popular vote. (Side note: I'm in my 30s, and I've never seen a non-incumbent Republican candidate win the popular vote in a presidential election. I'm beginning to think it's never going to happen).
4. James Comey publicizing Clinton investigations (and Clinton non-developments) while keeping more substantive Trump investigations private.
5. Russian election meddling in 2016.

 

[Lacius]

are you going to answer my question still waiting for the country thats allows it in europe

Why would I need to answer that question? It isn't allowed in the United States, so I don't understand why it would be relevant to anything either of us has said.