New Abortion Law Wave

[osaka35]

Bacteria? Oh come on. We are talking about a human life. Fuck, I will stomp on ants, swat at wasps, eradicate rodents, and chop chickens heads off. I am a farmer. I do what is necessary to help support human life.

Don't have sex if you can not accept the consequences of your actions. Don't drive drunk if you can't handle going to jail for life for killing someone. Life is full of consequences for your actions. This should not be any different.

If anyone thinks that abortion is alright, then what if I drive drunk and I kill someone? I don't get to call 'backsies' and be like "eh, I don't want to deal with the consequences of my actions today". You make a choice and now you must live with it.

And yes, there are always special circumstances for the cases where the mother or child may die from pregnancies. But that should not be the basis of an argument. Bringing those up is akin to someone making a statement that says "People are born with 8 fingers and 2 thumbs", and then some snooty college liberal shithead yells of from the back of the auditorium "No. Some people are born with extra digits. So we need to change the medical book to never say that people how many digits people are born with".

That's the worst comparison I've ever heard of. Life and accidents happen, even if you do absolutely everything right. Being drunk is much more akin to rape than sex. What if someone else drives drunk and runs into you. Why do you have to deal with the same consequences as if you were the drunk driver?

 

[supersonicwaffle]

That's true. Though the reason for the higher chance at month 7 is because of the brain stuff. End of month 5 takes some science wizardry to ensure the baby can still continue to develop.
Week 14, or the second trimester, most of the organs start happening, aside from the brain really. So it starts looking like something that is kinda human at this point. If your definition of human is it looks human-ish and has a developing liver, heart, etc., then this is your trimester.

Since overwhelming chance of survival is the criteria for a lot of places, that places it around the 3rd trimester, yes? I'm morally okay up to that point, personally. It's also still not my decision, being a guy.

Is it that easy though? At what point is it legal for a doctor not to help someone, if the patients estimated chance of survival is 49% or below?

It's also debatable whether this is a women's rights issue or a human rights issue as the question is at what point you should award a fetus human rights. Of course it affects women more severely but from a legislative standpoint, a precedent of a man having less say on a human rights issue makes me feel uneasy.

I think the canadian stance is, since it's unconscionable to make a woman do something with her body against her will, her permission is still required to do anything. Same as if had a blood type required to save someone's life in an emergency situation and you were the only one around to do it: still your choice, even if it'd probably immoral not to. The state can't dictate what someone can or can't do with their body, is their position. Not pro-late-term abortion, more of a "we cannot make a decision because the state cannot morally be allowed to make those kinds of decisions".

I really do understand that, I just think it isn't right. At least here in Germany you have laws that deal specifically with crimes against people that can't protect themselves like kids or elderly people suffering from dementia. I feel like a viable fetus' life is more worthy of protection than the mother's wishes in cases where the child was conceived in a consensual relationship.

 

[DeadlyFoez]

That's the worst comparison I've ever heard of. Life and accidents happen, even if you do absolutely everything right. Being drunk is much more akin to rape than sex. What if someone else drives drunk and runs into you. Why do you have to deal with the same consequences as if you were the drunk driver?

Huh?
Sorry, still waking up.
No one accidentally has sex. You don't just slip and land your dick in a woman. It is an intentional act (not including rape). Everyone is taught what happens when you have sex. Everyone knows what happens when you drive drunk. You are taking a risk knowing the possible outcome, and everyone already knows condoms and birth control fails. The only way to avoid pregnancy is to avoid sex.

If you are the victim of a drunk driver, then the drunk driver must get consequences (unless you are an elitist and then you get away with anything).

There is no legal recourse for a woman getting an abortion, and there should be, ESPECIALLY if the father was against the abortion. It is his child too.

Women bitching "My body, my choice", yes, they already made their choice to have sex. There should be consequences for having an abortion to deter people from making poor choices.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

And to anyone that says to me "So what are you going to do about all those unwanted babies when the mother gives it up and orphanages are full?"

You know what. I already do a shit load to help everyone around me. I give away the meat that we raise and the food that we grow to people all the time. I share a great amount. I have already been raising 3 troubling children that are not mine but I have treated them exactly as if they are mine. We have taken other children into our home that were in need and did great.

My life goal is to help people with my success. I was a shit head the majority of my younger years and I have turned that around to become a much better person. My plans for my future include continuing to give back to the community, the world, and people in need.

I will make certain that once I have even more the ability to do so, I will become actively involved with providing for children in foster homes and orphanages. My father spent a long time in an orphanage and it gave him nightmares for the rest of his life. No child should have to live like that. Ever child should have a great start to life. I will do my part in making that better for as many children as I can.

 

[linuxares]

Huh?
Sorry, still waking up.
No one accidentally has sex. You don't just slip and land your dick in a woman. It is an intentional act (not including rape). Everyone is taught what happens when you have sex. Everyone knows what happens when you drive drunk. You are taking a risk knowing the possible outcome, and everyone already knows condoms and birth control fails. The only way to avoid pregnancy is to avoid sex.

If you are the victim of a drunk driver, then the drunk driver must get consequences (unless you are an elitist and then you get away with anything).

There is no legal recourse for a woman getting an abortion, and there should be, ESPECIALLY if the father was against the abortion. It is his child too.

Women bitching "My body, my choice", yes, they already made their choice to have sex. There should be consequences for having an abortion to deter people from making poor choices.

Drunk driving and sex is two very different worlds and a very dumb analogy.

We human are one of a few species that have sex for pleasure, is that wrong? But we also have it because of needs. A lot of the other species only have it for reproduction. The women decide what grows and going on in her body. You shouldn't be the one that judge it, if she feels it's wrong, she should be able to get it out. It's just asinine to go back to laws dictated by the church than on actual facts, economy and living conditions.

About your earlier segment about "human life", no we does the life become human, where do we decide what have the right to live and not? I'm being a man have no right if the child so live or not, it's up to the mother. If I want a child so bad, I need to either find a person that want to get a child or adopt. That's the harsh reality we men must face.

Also "there should be consequnces for having an abortion"... there is already. A lot of social stigma, a lot of emotional pull etc. I know 4 people that have done abortions, and none of them have felt it was an easy decition. Two were waaay to young (18, still living at home, contraceptives didn't work what they told me) and two others have been more adult.

The two older decide they didn't feel it was the right time to have a baby, and I agree. If they feel they can't and would make the childs life a hell, then by all means yes. Get an abortion, its your right and no one should take it from you.

I kind of want to hear the female people of the temps talk about this instead of us with dingdongs... Also it's both parties problem if they get pregnant. It's not magically a women problem.

 

[osaka35]

There should be consequences for having an abortion to deter people from making poor choices.

why? Because you, personally, don't like it? You have to prove the responsibility, you can't assume it based on bad information or personal feelings. Your offense is not the same thing as moral imperative.

 

[DeadlyFoez]

There is the morning after pill. There are reasonable ways to stop the pregnancy before if becomes a being.

I would like to introduce you to Marcio Jardel.

The information on this man is scarce. Apparently the mother tried to have him aborted multiple times beyond the first trimester and he did not want to give up, but this is the result. How fucking fair is that?

You know what? If I drive drunk and I kill someone, then maybe I shouldn't go to jail because there is already enough of a social stigma...

 

[linuxares]

There is the morning after pill. There are reasonable ways to stop the pregnancy before if becomes a being.

I would like to introduce you to Marcio Jardel.
View attachment 167543
The information on this man is scarce. Apparently the mother tried to have him aborted multiple times beyond the first trimester and he did not want to give up, but this is the result. How fucking fair is that?

You know what? If I drive drunk and I kill someone, then maybe I shouldn't go to jail because there is already enough of a social stigma...

Drunk driving and abortion is still not the same thing.

 

[DeadlyFoez]

why? Because you, personally, don't like it? You have to prove the responsibility, you can't assume it based on bad information or personal feelings. Your offense is not the same thing as moral imperative.

If I drive drunk, and lets say that no one even gets hurt but I get pulled over, why should I get arrested? Because you, personally, don't like it? You have to prove the responsibility, you can't assume it based on bad information or personal feelings. Your offense is not the same thing as moral imperative.

 

[FAST6191]

The only way to avoid pregnancy is to avoid sex.

Ignoring self fertilisation (which has been documented in humans and other higher life forms, though is quite rare as far as we know) then it should be noted that abortion is a magnificent way of having a pregnancy continue, and while prevention is generally better than a cure a cure is nothing to sneeze at either.

Still help me draw a line.
Birth control pill (female). Multiple methods though preventing release of an egg, typically by mimicking aspects of pregnancy wherein egg release is halted, is a popular one. I am guessing that is fine.
Birth control pill/injection (male). Reached human trials a while back. Unsure of the mechanism but dud swimmers is the speculated one. Guessing also fine.
Morning after pill (female). Causes a breakdown of the lining of the womb and prevents implantation of the fertilised egg, assuming there even is one, leaving it go land on a tampon or whatever. Are we still fine here?
Condoms (typically male but there are variations). If used correctly prevents sperm from entering the woman and thus never making contact with an egg. Seemingly no objection voiced there despite mentioning the concept.
Implant (female). Mechanisms vary a bit but usually some variation of the above and preventing implantation.
Various more permanent things including vasectomy, tubes tying and whole excision of uterus aka hysterectomy (also potentially comes with other benefits like no periods if enough things are removed, other times ovulation still happens and we are functionally back to some of the previous stuff). What goes here?
After this we do go into chemical abortions. Here it is typically a two stage affair, one halts the growth of the foetus and the second stage either promotes reabsorption of materials or sees the body flush them out (more common nowadays). What changed between other presumably OK for you methods and this or are we still good here?
Following this we go in for the more surgical approaches, though they also vary in approach, and surgical approaches are an option before this point (chemical stuff has been around a while but is still something of a developing field).

What goes in cases where the pregnancy is a risk to the carrier, and presumably then the parasite too (if the host dies and all that)? Spin it again and what if the host will end up a vegetable or something if one is not done and another procedure carried out?

I would go on for the rights of the father thing as that is an interesting thing to contemplate but I will skip it for now, if nothing else it was discussed in the previous thread.

 

[kuwanger]

Seems that mindset is only something shared in your country. Every country in Europe makes abortion legal during the first trimester, even countries where they're still strict catholic. I really don't get why America has that medieval mindset with abortion and everything else.

There are definitely a lot of people who feel abortion is wrong and are against it--you mention Catholics. In most countries, including the US, it devolves into flamewars when the subject comes up. I get the impression there's more people in the US willing to start and flame flamewars than most other countries because there's a very strong belief in freedom of speech, especially on political issues. In any case, it's still a substantially vocal minority in the US who wants the law changed because many Republican (politicians) would, if the time came, want to pressure a spouse or mistress to have an abortion. That last part is the real disgusting part to me, since it clearly comes the mindset that "we're different" as justification.

 

[DeadlyFoez]

Drunk driving and abortion is still not the same thing.

You are right. One is legal and one is not. In my eyes both are preventable and both are a crime. Nothing anyone can say to me will change my mind about abortion being wrong.

Both the man and the woman have everything possible to be able to prevent a pregnancy that it is just extremely irresponsible to get pregnant when you dont want to be.

P.s. I am not a religious person at all. I am agnostic. My feelings about abortion are not based on any religious doctrines.

 

[linuxares]

You are right. One is legal and one is not. In my eyes both are preventable and both are a crime. Nothing anyone can say to me will change my mind about abortion being wrong.

Both the man and the woman have everything possible to be able to prevent a pregnancy that it is just extremely irresponsible to get pregnant when you dont want to be.

But one isn't a crime, that's what we're fighting for. One is a crime that endes a proper life, not a embryon.

Then if nothing can change your mind, why are you still trying to discuss it?

As i said earlier, I want a more feminin look on this, because right now the scientific world is more against you than your feelings.

 

[osaka35]

If I drive drunk, and lets say that no one even gets hurt but I get pulled over, why should I get arrested? Because you, personally, don't like it? You have to prove the responsibility, you can't assume it based on bad information or personal feelings. Your offense is not the same thing as moral imperative.

You're trying to get around proving responsibility by equating a forced comparison. You can't just point to the responsibilities when driving drunk and use those to justify anything you want to say about being forced to go through a pregnancy. It is not a logical or coherent thing to do. Please try to understand nothing you're saying holds water.

 

[supersonicwaffle]

Seems that mindset is only something shared in your country. Every country in Europe makes abortion legal during the first trimester, even countries where they're still strict catholic.

Well, that's just false. It's not even true for the EU.

 

[DeadlyFoez]

But one isn't a crime, that's what we're fighting for. One is a crime that endes a proper life, not a embryon.

Then if nothing can change your mind, why are you still trying to discuss it?

As i said earlier, I want a more feminin look on this, because right now the scientific world is more against you than your feelings.

Because this type of discussion is necessary to have and all possible points from both sides be laid out to help those that are unsure of where they stand on it.

I am not sure of at what part of a pregnancy that I feel it is alright for a woman to terminate it and have no moral recourse. I am fine with the morning after pill. I do feel that the heartbeat is a good line as to where it gets drawn. I would have to research it in depth to know exactly where I feel it is alright. But even at the haertbeat, that still gives a woman at least 6 weeks to make a fair choice. I must also say, that there is debate of what exactly constitutes as a heartbeat. 6 weeks is the earliest I have seen it be said.

 

[linuxares]

Some people don't know they're pregnant until like at week 8. It's extremly common, so the heartbeat isn't a good indicator either. It just a machine to pump blood. That all it does. It's all about the brain for me. The one we call us, is in the brain. Our concious, our thoughts etc. is in our brain. When the heart is beating, the brain is hardly anything than a tiny goup to control that. For example, is a braindead person alive or dead?

Is it right for us to turn of the machine of said person that keeps it alive?

 

[DeadlyFoez]

If you are having sex, you should be regularly taking pregnancy tests. It is irresponsible to not be doing so.

The thing about a braindead person is a whole other discussion. But in short, everyone should have a living will or at least loved ones to make the proper choice respecting what that person may have wanted, especially if there is possible hope. I think we should keep that topic separate because it goes down a really deep rabbit hole.

 

[kumikochan]

Well, that's just false. It's not even true for the EU.

a simple google search does a lot . Belgium as an example it is legal to do so till 3 months in to the pregnancy and everybody can freely choose that but after 3 months it can only be done if it endangers the health of the person carrying the child. I think it should be the same everywhere in the world.
http://abortion-clinics.eu/abortion-europe/

 

[Bonehead]

Virgins talking about abortions is hilarious, btw.

 

[WeedZ]

The problem with this debate is that opinions rely on a moral foundation. The problem with morality is that its subjective, its fluid, its constantly changing with time, culture and circumstance. There is no bottom line that you can turn to to say if it's right or wrong. There are cases where shooting a grown man in the face is the right, and morally acceptable thing to do. And times where one is considered a hero doing so. This is why potential crimes are judged on a case by case basis. To throw a blanket of standard over abortion is against the practices of modern society.

I like how deadlyfoes says we need to push these discussions to get people on one side of the fence or the other. Because it points out exactly what we dont need to do. It's ok to not have an opinion on something. Sometimes, it's better if people mind their own business. I dont care one way or another about abortion. I've never been faced with having to make that decision, nor do I judge those that have, because i know i cant possibly know everything about what would drive someone to have to do that.

And if I did have to make that decision, let's say my gf and i were expecting, but the baby was horribly deformed or a product of a violent rape, I would already be facing one of the hardest trials of my life and wouldnt want a bunch of moral tryhards getting involved in my personal life when they clearly dont know what they're talking about.