http://www.ktemkin.com/faq-fusee-gelee/

Kate has collected and answered the most common questions she's gotten regarding Fusée Gelée. Most notably she explains the three "types" of FG hacks, software, hardware (temporary) and hardware (permanent).

Enjoy!

Kate herself responded to this thread on page 26, thanks Kate!

There's a lot more here than I can easily respond to, so apologies if I miss posts or gloss over points.



This is correct-- while there likely will be software chains around for these things in the future, I don't see them as coming along as quickly as f-g. We don't have a non-coldboot exploit chain at all for 5.0.0-- and we haven't looked yet, as we've had other things to focus on and coldboot works. We do have one for 4.1.0, but it's centered around a couple of exploits that we don't want to burn-- we're hoping to use them to get an opportunity to poke around inside T214/Mariko.



I don't view you as particularly hostile, no. I don't know if challenge is generally a good thing-- sometimes you do have to accept that other people have different ethics or viewpoints from yourself and let that pass, especially if they're just doing stuff for fun-- but I don't view your post as hostile.



Jamais Vu (1.0.0 TrustZone hack) isn't my bug, but has been written up, and is just awaiting someone with the skills to have time to do a public interpretation. Déjà Vu is currently centered around the exploit I mentioned above, and we definitely want to hold onto that for as long as it's applicable. It's entirely a Switch bug, too, so I don't see it as being something that needs responsible disclosure.



For Déjà Vu, absolutely. (explained in last quote)



I don't agree that things like tweeting are ego. This is something I work on because I find it a lot of fun to hack on things, and there's definitely an aspect in which it makes me happy when seeing the results of things makes other people happy. There's also an aspect in which I hope that showing these things are possible inspires people to want to learn e.g. reverse engineering. This stuff is cool; and I want to share the excitement with others and lift them up as much as I can.

You don't have to believe me on that or like that that's my goal. I won't hold it against you if you don't.



I honestly support people updating when it makes sense; and I recognize that there's a conflict between holding back information and enabling others to make reasonable decisions about that. I don't like or feel good about secrecy, and I know it has implications. I've tried to be as clear as I can about the costs regarding updating without crossing the line into giving things away.



I think we've been pretty clear that 4.1.0 will eventually see a non-coldboot, software-only exploit with the same level of power. That's actually been posted on the ReSwitched Discord's FAQ for months, but I know the message gets skewed as its gets communicated over to other places. That's part of why I'm here, now-- I want to help clear things up.

The interactions between the operating system and the bootloader-- say on reboot-- are actually fairly limited; and knowing what any of them are is enough to point people at the particular section of bootrom that's vulnerable. That's why I'm not commenting on Fusée Gelée and how it relates to software-only solutions right now. I have said e.g. above that since there's no public way of getting the privileges necessary to run things, 4.1.0 isn't going to see a pure software solution that the public can use at the time that f-g is released. Software exploits will likely come in time; and it's possible we'll come up with things that are even easier than f-g.



I'm not sure if they'll take it seriously enough. I don't know how they are internally-- but I can't just assume they'll fail to do anything and skip disclosure. Honestly, I don't think a "security advisory" is really a bad thing, either-- there are definitely applications of Tegra chips that I and/or the public don't know about. If giving NVIDIA notice gives them time to explain exactly what's dangerous and allow their customers to remove and replace units from places where the vulnerability can cause harm, I consider that a win, and well worth delaying some public switch hacks by a few months.

I'll also say that my fear that vendors won't take the vulnerability seriously is a huge reason I'm so keen to get things out there-- and why I provided a date after which I'll tell the public what's going on that I've said was non-negotiable. I want to make sure this doesn't get hidden, and that people understand exactly what f-g can and can't accomplish, to minimize FUD while also letting people understand the actual risks are associated with using a vulnerable device.



It changes this from an exploit that's going to be usable before the affected people know it's a thing to something that people may have a chance to react to. Making the vulnerability public without disclosure really increases the odds someone is capable of using it to do bad.

I didn't really give NVIDIA a chance to sell-off stock; though. I've said publicly multiple times that there are bugs in Tegra processors well before NVIDIA reached out to me seeking disclosure. If anything, I think telling the public that these vulnerabilities exist while pursuing disclosure helps developers interested in using Tegra chips in the future ask the right question.



I've already said that while pure-software stuff is doable on 4.1.0; it'll be a wait. As far as I'm remembering, the only part of the chain that could require multiple tries to work is PegaSwitch, which is our browser-based entry point, and I haven't even tried the browser entry point that'll eventually be public to see how reliable it is. SciresM did the work to get our non-coldboot exploit working on 4.1.0; not me.



Yeah, that's hard-- especially as everyone has a different view as to how inconvenient things are. I don't know of a way to communicate this better without more details.

Incidentally, the 'inconvenience' verbiage came from SciresM and I discussing our respective views on updating. I think SciresM is more towards the opinion that people should hold back more often, where I'm more of the opinion that updating can be a good and reasonable option sometimes. The way we wound up phrasing things is a compromise between views.



(I'm going to assume this meant "on the hacking side". If not I'm not sure what hacking site you're referring to.)

Updating to latest just closes the possibility of using software exploits launched from Horizon, which can make setup more difficult. I know you'd like to know how much, but I unfortunately don't have a good way of qualifying that. As I've mentioned, if you're suffering from not being able to use your 3.0.1+ Switch, you probably do want to upgrade and just risk things being more inconvenient in the future. Worst comes to worst, if you decide you can't tolerate the inconvenience, you upgrade and then wind up having to figure out a modchip.

The downgrade protection fuses literally mean nothing to a system with f-g, which can entirely skip the downgrade check. Incidentally, SciresM actually accidentally bricked one of his systems in a way such that it was always failing the downgrade checks, and he's been able to use f-g to get that system up and running again.



I don't think that's clear at all, nor do I want to confirm or deny this. Sorry.



I think you're making a bunch of assumptions here, and that's maybe not a great idea. I'm not saying you're necessarily right or wrong; just that I don't think your assumptions are founded.



I don't think this contradicts. This is talking about vulnerabilities that aren't f-g; not because f-g doesn't work on 4.1.0, but because it's possible we may come up with vulnerabilities that are even nicer on 4.1.0 in the future.



I'm being as clear as I feel I can, and adding clarifications e.g. here where I think it helps. There will be different names for the the ways you can use f-g eventually; and I'll be fully open about everything once the summer rolls around and I'm not putting the disclosure timeline in jeopardy.



I know and have said about that this "bring your own exploit" business makes development exclusive, and that's exclusionary and I really don't like it-- I just don't see a way around it. I would love to get more developers and more perspective, and that's why my release date for f-g is tied to my disclosure timeline and not in particular to Atmosphère's release.




I've tried to point out approximately what the difficulty would be for some of the options to kind of provide this, but this is a hard thing to accomplish. In this case, providing details that are more specific really points a finger at vulnerability details, so there's not much I'm comfortable sharing. I've shared what I could-- as a data point, some of the other teams have outright stated that they think I've shared too much already and made things obvious. I don't agree or necessarily care about their opinons, but c'est la vie.



Well, this isn't the case. This has been disclosed to Nintendo, too-- as NVIDIA shares their vulnerability findings with downstream customers. It's more general malicious actors that I'd be worried about.



See above-- but I don't think I'd advise specifically updating to 4.1.0 unless that gives you enough access to the games you want.



I'm also super glad that we can do a lot of our work in the open. I hope there's a lot more of it in the future-- and I'd love to stream some of it.



I find the requirement disheartening as well, but I think this is the right way to do things, for now. I've explained my rationale above; feel free to ask questions.



I'm not sure why people are against communication, here. There were definite benefits to talking about f-g in the first place; including that it demonstrates that Tegra chips are vulnerable-- which hopefully influences buying decisions in the future and puts pressure on NVIDIA to seek as much of a fix as they can. After that there seemed to be definitely benefits to talking about more details, even in the limited sense that I'm able to. I've tried to give people more information than the nothing they would have had so they could have more of an idea whether it's be a good idea to e.g. pre-order a modchip or update their system. I know it can be frustrating to not get full disclosure, and that more information would help people to make a better or more conclusive decision, but full disclosure isn't an option until this summer. I don't think that's a reason to hold back information.



I don't have specific answers to your questions, unfortunately-- but I think it sounds like the main purpose of this Switch is as a gaming device and maybe you should upgrade and enjoy playing games with your son.



I don't think that asking for clarification is criticism. It might be rude to push me to answer something I said I wouldn't, but I don't think there's harm in answer.



I don't think I've said anything about opening the console or not. See above for my views on updating?



I'm not sure where you got this impression, or why you're confident about things enough to claim you know about the internal values or working of ReSwitched. This is also easily disprovable just from public information--Hedgeberg has tested out f-g on stream. I don't see it as great opsec to enumerate how many people have access to the vulnerability, but we've long had a policy of only giving exploit details to those who actually want to know them and are in a position where they can use them to help. This is a basic security precaution and not about trust.

I'm actually not sure how this is relevant to the broader discussion. Based on your post history, I can tell that you strongly support TX and the option they're providing, and you're welcome to that, but I think throwing around generic unfounded criticism of RS doesn't do much good and distracts from me answering community questions.



I don't think they're obviously more convenient, as they exist right now. They're both inherently however-tethered-you-consider-PegaSwitch, take a bunch of time to run, and rely on a pegaswitch entry point.



That's not correct-- everyone on a current hardware revision will be able to install and use CFW the day it's released, if they're willing to put in the effort and potentially take on some minor risk.



I'm actually not sure what you mean by this entire post? Sorry about that-- I'd love to address your ideas, but unfortunately I can't figure out your meaning.



That was about me having fun by trying to see if a DIY, cheap modchip option is reasonable. It turns out it is. As you've noted, it's not necessary on any firmware. I just really like the idea that the open exchange of knowledge -- especially when profit's not a motive -- can result in creation of neat options for the community. ^-^



Yep; that's exactly what it means.



I don't think this has been at all implied-- and you'd be hard pressed to find a way to make a solder-less Arduino option that even remotely fits in the Switch case.

I should also clarify that the DIY option isn't solderless.

If you have or are going to get the game anyway, you can. Those versions are pretty much interchangeable in the long-term.



Yep-- and it's possible at some point that we'll allow you to install Fake News without Puyo using f-g/Atmosphère. The original plan was to release Atmosphère for 1.0.0 first while we tried to figure out how to deal with Fusée Gelée, but we actually wound up with a disclosure schedule that was faster than we'd thought.

 

[sarkwalvein]

Is the hardmod solution permanent?
By permanent I mean, that I won't have to do the hardmod again every time I power-off the console.

I'm sorry if this has been answered already.

"Yes", at least some instance of it. It seems.
Look, you should check the following links for real answers, instead of looking people play Chinese whispers*(teléfono descompuesto)

http://www.ktemkin.com/faq-fusee-gelee/
https://gbatemp.net/search/member?user_id=440542

 

[smf]

Is the hardmod solution permanent?
By permanent I mean, that I won't have to do the hardmod again every time I power-off the console.

The tweezer isn't permanent, but if you cut a pin instead then it is.

 

[BL4Z3D247]

The tweezer isn't permanent, but if you cut a pin instead then it is.

I don't know how close the contact points are but I wonder if you can just bridge them with solder like the OG Xbox TSOP flash method. I guess that is sort of pointless since you can "snip a pin" anyway, just curious if that could work to make the "tweezers" hardmod permenant, in case "snipping a pin" seems too permenant(you can always remove the bridge, can't unsnip a pin).

 

[smf]

(you can always remove the bridge, can't unsnip a pin).

Depends where you snip it, you could probably bridge that to repair it. Or instead of snipping it you can probably desolder it. However it's likely the pitch is pretty small, so I'm not sure I'd want to put a soldering iron near it anyway.

As long as you don't update your switch then you probably will be able to do it with software anyway.

 

[BL4Z3D247]

Depends where you snip it, you could probably bridge that to repair it. Or instead of snipping it you can probably desolder it. However it's likely the pitch is pretty small, so I'm not sure I'd want to put a soldering iron near it anyway.

As long as you don't update your switch then you probably will be able to do it with software anyway.

Well personally, I'm still sitting on 1.0.0. I was just curious and like to be in the know. I know people that are on higher FWs though and I know some of them might not want me snipping anything but we'll see as nothing has been officially laid out for us in that aspect.

P.S. I do tiny soldering.

P.P.S. Seriously though, I do tiny soldering, did a OG Xbox RAM upgrade a couple years back. That was fun.

 

[BlastedGuy9905]

Kate missed a question: how the heck do I pronounce that?

 

[BelmontSlayer]

Kate missed a question: how the heck do I pronounce that?

It's French, Google Translate says it's pronounced fuzee julee.

 

[BlastedGuy9905]

It's French, Google Translate says it's pronounced fuzee julee.

Yeah, I figured it's French, just didn't know how to pronounce it. Thanks.

 

[smf]

I know people that are on higher FWs though and I know some of them might not want me snipping anything but we'll see as nothing has been officially laid out for us in that aspect.

I don't know if this is for the tweezer or the snipping pin exploit.

Both-- mostly I think that the 'trivial hardmod' is at a really nice intersection of convenience, ease, and lack-of-risk. I'd think if you're okay with e.g. unplugging and replugging a ribbon cable you're up to it -- but obvious that's up to the end user.

But I assume it means you only need to take the back cover off and not go any further



I wonder whether the internal flash and the sd are on the same bus and you could exploit it by creating a microsd that grounds some of the data lines. Of course that would be hard to make your own, but https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/microsd-sniffer-hookup-guide maybe the TX solderless modchip plugs in the microsd slot too....

 

[TotalInsanity4]

I'm not entirely sure what context you mean, because she is deliberately avoiding giving any context.

If you use the tweezer method then you do have to open it every time. You don't need to use the tweezer method, you can cut a pin or fit a modchip.

Switching from using the tweezer to a softmod is no longer using the tweezer method & that is not something she has directly addressed. This might be because it's not possible, or it might be because she assumes someone who has taken their console apart will take the easy way out and just cut the pin. Rather than using the tweezer mod, booting up CFW and then running a software mod.

Personally I'm in the group of people who would rather wait for the >3.0.0 exploit to come out, or if they did open the switch then they wouldn't want to risk damaging the switch by cutting the wrong pin but might do the tweezer exploit once.

By "context" I meant someone in the thread asked if we were going to have to take the back off the Switch every time for the tweezer method, because that would get tedious, and she responded saying that no, the temporary hardmod (which she keeps alluding to being the "tweezer" method) only needs to be done one time to install the exploit

 

[BL4Z3D247]

Lazy ass OP should put all her replies in the first post.

The OP did, every(important) post up until April 11th. Lazy people should learn to check the spoilers before being disrespectful and looking like a fool.

 

[andijames]

Don't bite

But to be fair this would be a great sticky with all the info in. Means we can direct user x who asks about the same thing for the 126th time to the post. Saves a lot of hassle

 

[andijames]

But to be fair this is gbatemp so it's normal not to search etc

 

[smf]

By "context" I meant someone in the thread asked if we were going to have to take the back off the Switch every time for the tweezer method, because that would get tedious, and she responded saying that no, the temporary hardmod (which she keeps alluding to being the "tweezer" method) only needs to be done one time to install the exploit

According to the FAQ the tweezer method isn't permanent, or it wouldn't be necessary to make it permanent.

"I do have a "hardmod"-assisted variant, where the hardmod is approximately equivalent to shorting a couple of pins with tweezers. No soldering or dangerousness required, and there's a very minor thing you can do (think the equivalent of snipping a pin) to make the assistance permanent.

There's also a neat twist on things that allows you to do the above with no permanent modifications to your Switch."

Maybe the neat twist is switching to a software method after using the tweezers, or maybe it's something else.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Maybe the neat twist is switching to a software method after using the tweezers, or maybe it's something else.

Right, that's what it sounds like it is, at least from what she's said here

 

[Benjay]

Kate missed a question: how the heck do I pronounce that?

The nearest way I could find to "write it in english" so it sounds almost like french is something like this : "füsay jelay" (you have to pronounce the "e" like an "a" as in a man, a shirt, a dog...).
Also the u is not pronounced "you" it is like in the german word "über".
And finally, about the "j", you have to cut the "d" part when you pronounce it ^^
That was my little french lesson of the day ahah

 

[TotalInsanity4]

The nearest way I could find to "write it in english" so it sounds almost like french is something like this : "füsay jelay" (you have to pronounce the "e" like an "a" as in a man, a shirt, a dog...).
Also the u is not pronounced "you" it is like in the german word "über".
And finally, about the "j", you have to cut the "d" part when you pronounce it ^^
That was my little french lesson of the day ahah

For people who are used to American English, try "Foo-SAY juh-LAY", with a soft "j"

 

[LuigiXL]

The nearest way I could find to "write it in english" so it sounds almost like french is something like this : "füsay jelay" (you have to pronounce the "e" like an "a" as in a man, a shirt, a dog...).
Also the u is not pronounced "you" it is like in the german word "über".
And finally, about the "j", you have to cut the "d" part when you pronounce it ^^
That was my little french lesson of the day ahah

Ok I'm updating

 

[Benjay]

For people who are used to American English, try "Foo-SAY juh-LAY", with a soft "j"

You're almost there ^^
But that's definitely not Foo, it's Fü lol, try with Fü-zay juh-lay and you're good !!

 

[sarkwalvein]

You're almost there ^^
But that's definitely not Foo, it's Fü lol, try with Fü-zay juh-lay and you're good !!

But there is no ü in English!
"If you are used to American English, and happen to know how to pronounce the German vowels, and are familiar with the Chinese intonations, and..." argh, better take French lessons.