Hardware Native Wii upscaling?

[chyyran]

Has anything been said if the WiiU will be able to upscale Wii games to a higher resolution, like in Dolphin?

I mean, if a group of guys (albeit, very talented guys) can do it, why not Nintendo?

 

[Ergo]

No it will not, direct from Nintendo.

 

[chyyran]

No it will not, direct from Nintendo.

May I see the link to the news post/video/etc?

 

[JoostinOnline]

Native is the opposite of upscaled. However, a simple google search would have told you that the Wii U won't upscale Wii games, as well as a reason why.
http://www.1up.com/news/wii-games-wont-look-nicer-wii-u

 

[KongsNutz]

Source - http://www.nintendol...i_games_sharper

Still going to say they look nicer on Wii U simply for HDMI output.

 

[the_randomizer]

Would it be too taxing on the GPU to upscale them or what? If Nintendo doesn't do it, then hackers likely will.

 

[chyyran]

Native is the opposite of upscaled. However, a simple google search would have told you that the Wii U won't upscale Wii games, as well as a reason why.
http://www.1up.com/news/wii-games-wont-look-nicer-wii-u

Better worded title
"Will the WiiU be able to upscale Wii games natively"
Native, as in without hacks.

But, thanks for the link

 

[DiscostewSM]

Would it be too taxing on the GPU to upscale them or what? If Nintendo doesn't do it, then hackers likely will.

The way the graphics are processed/rendered on the Wii is most likely different from how the Wii U handles the same thing. They could have attempted to process/render it ala Wii U + emulation, but I think it would have affected compatibility. However, I don't see why they couldn't upscale it in the same way that the 3DS upscales DS games (in that the final image processed is put into a buffer instead of displayed on the screen, and the newer hardware takes that image and scales it up with filters to the display). It won't be as sharp as one would see with native 720p/1080p, but it would make an improvement.

 

[Rydian]

Well it's not like the games are running on a PC, where the GPU is fully in charge of the rendering and does it at whichever resolution it's told. A lot of Gamecube and Wii games use special effects and commands that rely on a certain resolution (such a certain objects being a certain number of pixels away from one edge).

So while it might technically be possible it'd cause visual glitches, likely ones worse than the widescreen-GC thing.

 

[McHaggis]

Would it be too taxing on the GPU to upscale them or what? If Nintendo doesn't do it, then hackers likely will.

The way the graphics are processed/rendered on the Wii is most likely different from how the Wii U handles the same thing. They could have attempted to process/render it ala Wii U + emulation, but I think it would have affected compatibility. However, I don't see why they couldn't upscale it in the same way that the 3DS upscales DS games (in that the final image processed is put into a buffer instead of displayed on the screen, and the newer hardware takes that image and scales it up with filters to the display). It won't be as sharp as one would see with native 720p/1080p, but it would make an improvement.

Well it's not like the games are running on a PC, where the GPU is fully in charge of the rendering and does it at whichever resolution it's told. A lot of Gamecube and Wii games use special effects and commands that rely on a certain resolution (such a certain objects being a certain number of pixels away from one edge).

So while it might technically be possible it'd cause visual glitches, likely ones worse than the widescreen-GC thing.

They could have had a switch for increasing the resolution, easily disabled if there are any visual glitches. Let's all be realistic here: they haven't implemented it because doing so would piss on any potential sales of Super Mario Galaxy HD (with Gamepad Map) and friends ― games that they could churn out for the Wii U with very little effort for a large return. It's the same reason they removed Gamecube compatibility from newer Wii consoles in the run up to Wii U when leaving it in would have required only minimal effort to get memory card and controller emulation implemented.

You can't blame Nintendo for looking at the bigger picture, that's how they've always worked. A potentially smarter move for them would have been to sell HD texture packs for Wii games on the eShop. With any luck, a Wii U mode exploit might lead to a DevolUtion that can up-res both GC and Wii games.

 

[JoostinOnline]

They could have had a switch for increasing the resolution, easily disabled if there are any visual glitches. Let's all be realistic here: they haven't implemented it because doing so would piss on any potential sales of Super Mario Galaxy HD (with Gamepad Map) and friends ― games that they could churn out for the Wii U with very little effort for a large return.

I really don't agree with that. A very good reason is given in the article I linked to. The Wii and Wii U don't have the same hardware, and it's clear that the Wii U won't use the same IOS setup as the Wii, since it can run the System Menu (or whatever they decide to call it, maybe Dashboard or something) in the background.

It's the same reason they removed Gamecube compatibility from newer Wii consoles in the run up to Wii U when leaving it in would have required only minimal effort to get memory card and controller emulation implemented.

That's not even close to true. Since GC games run on the official MIOS, neither of those things are even possible. The MC emulation MIGHT be possible with a MIOS update (I doubt it though), but it certainly wouldn't be easy, and controller emulation is impossible as MIOS doesn't allow access to the bluetooth module.

 

[Qtis]

Depends a lot on the hardware solution for the whole console. If it's partially emulated and/or the GPU is top of the line (doubt this is going to happen, otherwise the price would be a lot higher).

As Wii gaming is native (correct me if I'm wrong here), it'd be quite a bit more taxing on the system (GPU especially) to start upscaling the games from 307,200 pixels (640x480, ie. 480p) to 2,073,600 pixels (1920x1080, ie. 1080p). It's easy on a computer with dolphin, when you probably have loads of extra CPU/GPU power to boost the resolution. The WiiU on the other hands doesn't have the luxury.

Also HD texture packs could be one way to go, if it's even remotely possible with the hardware at hand. If the thing is purely on native hardware and everything else is turned off for the Wii side (possibly a menu like psx games on the ps3 or gc games on the wii?), it'd probably just work like a Wii in terms of adding a HD texture pack.

 

[McHaggis]

They could have had a switch for increasing the resolution, easily disabled if there are any visual glitches. Let's all be realistic here: they haven't implemented it because doing so would piss on any potential sales of Super Mario Galaxy HD (with Gamepad Map) and friends ― games that they could churn out for the Wii U with very little effort for a large return.

I really don't agree with that. A very good reason is given in the article I linked to. The Wii and Wii U don't have the same hardware, and it's clear that the Wii U won't use the same IOS setup as the Wii, since it can run the System Menu (or whatever they decide to call it, maybe Dashboard or something) in the background.

The Wii and the Wii U have the same architecture, and tueidj apparently has it on very good authority that the Wii U still uses IOS. Sure, they have some different hardware, but with virtualisation can eliminate a lot of compatibility issues. How do you expect Wii mode to work on the Wii U? IOS is just an operating system, there's nothing saying that it can't be improved to run two things instead of one.

It's the same reason they removed Gamecube compatibility from newer Wii consoles in the run up to Wii U when leaving it in would have required only minimal effort to get memory card and controller emulation implemented.

That's not even close to true. Since GC games run on the official MIOS, neither of those things are even possible. The MC emulation MIGHT be possible with a MIOS update (I doubt it though), but it certainly wouldn't be easy, and controller emulation is impossible as MIOS doesn't allow access to the bluetooth module.

What? MIOS is software, programmed by Nintendo's developers, that runs on Wii hardware... what's stopping them from altering the code to perform both controller/memory card emultion? The GameCube games wouldn't have known any differently, that's the whole point of MIOS ― it's a compatibility layer.

 

[JoostinOnline]

They could have had a switch for increasing the resolution, easily disabled if there are any visual glitches. Let's all be realistic here: they haven't implemented it because doing so would piss on any potential sales of Super Mario Galaxy HD (with Gamepad Map) and friends ― games that they could churn out for the Wii U with very little effort for a large return.

I really don't agree with that. A very good reason is given in the article I linked to. The Wii and Wii U don't have the same hardware, and it's clear that the Wii U won't use the same IOS setup as the Wii, since it can run the System Menu (or whatever they decide to call it, maybe Dashboard or something) in the background.

The Wii and the Wii U have the same architecture, and tueidj apparently has it on very good authority that the Wii U still uses IOS. Sure, they have some different hardware, but with virtualisation can eliminate a lot of compatibility issues. How do you expect Wii mode to work on the Wii U? IOS is just an operating system, there's nothing saying that it can't be improved to run two things instead of one.

You clearly don't know how an IOS (which is firmware btw) works if you think it can run two things at once.

Of course Wii games will run under IOS, which is exactly my point. They can't rewrite how Wii games work.

It's the same reason they removed Gamecube compatibility from newer Wii consoles in the run up to Wii U when leaving it in would have required only minimal effort to get memory card and controller emulation implemented.

That's not even close to true. Since GC games run on the official MIOS, neither of those things are even possible. The MC emulation MIGHT be possible with a MIOS update (I doubt it though), but it certainly wouldn't be easy, and controller emulation is impossible as MIOS doesn't allow access to the bluetooth module.

What? MIOS is software, programmed by Nintendo's developers, that runs on Wii hardware... what's stopping them from altering the code to perform both controller/memory card emultion? The GameCube games wouldn't have known any differently, that's the whole point of MIOS ― it's a compatibility layer.

That's not altering the code, that's completely rewriting it. MIOS shuts off all the Wii-specific hardware. The whole point of the new Wii's was so they could sell them cheaper. It would be really stupid to put all the time and money into redesigning MIOS.

 

[McHaggis]

You clearly don't know how an IOS (which is firmware btw) works if you think it can run two things at once.

IOS is the operating system that runs on the Starlet coprocessor inside the Hollywood package. It provides the services that are used by Wii code to access most of the system devices.

From WiiBrew. You're clearly not a programmer if you think that software is restricted to its original feature set.

Of course Wii games will run under IOS, which is exactly my point. They can't rewrite how Wii games work.

You think they can't change IOS? Or do you think that each IOS is written from scratch? All IOS are based off the same code, that original code can be improved upon. You already said that the Wii U isn't the same hardware, so the same IOSes aren't just going to run on the Wii U without some form of compatibility layer or changes to that code. How do you not get that?

It's the same reason they removed Gamecube compatibility from newer Wii consoles in the run up to Wii U when leaving it in would have required only minimal effort to get memory card and controller emulation implemented.

That's not even close to true. Since GC games run on the official MIOS, neither of those things are even possible. The MC emulation MIGHT be possible with a MIOS update (I doubt it though), but it certainly wouldn't be easy, and controller emulation is impossible as MIOS doesn't allow access to the bluetooth module.

What? MIOS is software, programmed by Nintendo's developers, that runs on Wii hardware... what's stopping them from altering the code to perform both controller/memory card emultion? The GameCube games wouldn't have known any differently, that's the whole point of MIOS ― it's a compatibility layer.

That's not altering the code, that's completely rewriting it. MIOS shuts off all the Wii-specific hardware. The whole point of the new Wii's was so they could sell them cheaper. It would be really stupid to put all the time and money into redesigning MIOS.

No, it's not completely rewriting it. It's writing an additional feature into it. MIOS doesn't shut anything off, it just doesn't provide access to the additional hardware like IOS does (because GC games don't need it anyway).

You're naive if you think the only angle was saving such a small amount of each piece of hardware. The additional costs incurred in changing the hardware will be barely recuperated by the additional profit made on each unit, then you have to factor in that the unit is less appealing and might not sell as well (which it hasn't, although I'm not implying that lack of compatibility was a big factor, I just don't know that).

 

[Rydian]

Uh... by re-soldering the ports and junk to the Wii, it'll play gamecube games again.

It WAS just the hardware saving.

 

[DiscostewSM]

The Wii and the Wii U have the same architecture

Only the CPU is of the same architecture. The GPU in the Wii U, on the other hand, is completely different from the Wii's GPU. Games on the Wii could only go up to 480p, and therefore, were designed with that as the hard-limit. GC games on the Wii didn't use anything extra that the Wii provided because they weren't designed with those in mind. Even PS2 games on the PS3 did not take advantage of the PS3 hardware except for the idea already brought forth about scaling up the final render with filters.

 

[McHaggis]

The Wii and the Wii U have the same architecture

Only the CPU is of the same architecture. The GPU in the Wii U, on the other hand, is completely different from the Wii's GPU. Games on the Wii could only go up to 480p, and therefore, were designed with that as the hard-limit. GC games on the Wii didn't use anything extra that the Wii provided because they weren't designed with those in mind. Even PS2 games on the PS3 did not take advantage of the PS3 hardware except for the idea already brought forth about scaling up the final render with filters.

Yes, that all goes without saying, but Wii games on the Wii U will not use the Wii's GPU because it doesn't exist in the Wii U. Therefore, some kind of compatibility layer will be required, so I don't see how scaling or a resolution increase wouldn't be possible. You can't say that Wii and GC games can only output graphics at 480p because that's the hard limit when Dolphin is able to render at higher resolutions (1080p with nice smooth AA), it does this because of how it emulates calls made to the GPU, right?

The only real argument I'm making here, really, is that what people are asking for in this thread isn't impossible ― though I fully understand why Nintendo wouldn't ever implement it. PS2/PS3 isn't the same thing as Wii/WiiU or even GC/Wii. Initially, the PS3 contained PS2 hardware and still managed to apply scaling and filters to games, though subsequent revisions used software for emulation. Scaling didn't look too good, IMO ― but it was possible to disable it.

 

[DiscostewSM]

The Wii and the Wii U have the same architecture

Only the CPU is of the same architecture. The GPU in the Wii U, on the other hand, is completely different from the Wii's GPU. Games on the Wii could only go up to 480p, and therefore, were designed with that as the hard-limit. GC games on the Wii didn't use anything extra that the Wii provided because they weren't designed with those in mind. Even PS2 games on the PS3 did not take advantage of the PS3 hardware except for the idea already brought forth about scaling up the final render with filters.

Yes, that all goes without saying, but Wii games on the Wii U will not use the Wii's GPU because it doesn't exist in the Wii U. Therefore, some kind of compatibility layer will be required, so I don't see how scaling or a resolution increase wouldn't be possible. You can't say that Wii and GC games can only output graphics at 480p because that's the hard limit when Dolphin is able to render at higher resolutions (1080p with nice smooth AA), it does this because of how it emulates calls made to the GPU, right?

The only real argument I'm making here, really, is that what people are asking for in this thread isn't impossible ― though I fully understand why Nintendo wouldn't ever implement it. PS2/PS3 isn't the same thing as Wii/WiiU or even GC/Wii. Initially, the PS3 contained PS2 hardware and still managed to apply scaling and filters to games, though subsequent revisions used software for emulation. Scaling didn't look too good, IMO ― but it was possible to disable it.

The Wii U has actual Wii-compatible hardware in it (just like the Wii had GC-compatible hardware and the original PS3 had PS2-compatible hardware), thus allow it to run the Wii games without resorting to emulation. In order for them to be compatible (both in running the games and without generating glitches), they'd be under the same restrictions that the games were with the original hardware. When Sony began removing parts of the PS2 hardware from the PS3 to let software emulation take over, compatibility dropped significantly. That is not something Nintendo is willing to do.

Now, I'm not arguing that they couldn't upscale the final render (as Nintendo did with DS games on the 3DS), but people are assuming that the Wii U should be able to render Wii games at 1080p (vs upscaling to 1080p), which is not possible using Wii hardware. Dolphin is capable of it, but that is done with full emulation, which also brings about glitches and general incompatibility with numerous titles.

 

[McHaggis]

Most people could live without compatibility for over 90% of Wii games