Yet another Windows 8 / Metro argument

[spinal_cord]

Looking at windows 8, it seems that microsoft has taken a step backwards from windows 3.1 down to windows 1.x

I do sometimes boot up win 3.1 on my ipad though

 

[Pleng]

Looking at windows 8, it seems that microsoft has taken a step backwards from windows 3.1 down to windows 1.x

Cool. Windows 8 debate!

Well things do tend to go around in circles. We improve things and improve things and improve things until they're finally running pretty much the way they used to anyway - only by the time it's come around, technology has makes the original way of doing things make a lot more sense.

The desktop paradigm was a horrendously flawed one to begin with - let's take the messiest part of any office and use it to base our computer operating environment on - let users stack windows on top of each other, loose them behind a whole myriad of other windows and waste countless minutes trying to find what it is they actually want to do.

Full screen apps make a lot more sense. Especially if there's an easy way to flip between them (I haven't spent much time with Windows 8 so I don't know if they've got this bit right). If there's a cause to view two things side by side, then the app needs to provide this functionality - who in their right mind would run two instances of notepad++, when it incorporates a much better side-by-side view. And can you really argue that having folders open all over the screen and dragging and dropping is a more productive way of working that the classic file commanders? We now have the concept of apps interacting with each other, which makes a lot of sense. Previously a programmer could rely on 3rd party libraries to take the pain out of implementing features, now they can go one step further and rely on whole other apps to do the work for them.

 

[spinal_cord]

Full screen apps make a lot more sense. Especially if there's an easy way to flip between them (I haven't spent much time with Windows 8 so I don't know if they've got this bit right). If there's a cause to view two things side by side, then the app needs to provide this functionality

What? surely you joke?

What do you then do if say, you need to view two entirely different types of document side-by-side? Like say, a video and a notepad for example? Would you seriously expect the video player to have notepad functionality, or the notepad to have video playing functionality? No.

 

[Count Duckula]

MS Office loads to the traditional desktop GUI on Win RT devices, despite no 3rd party apps being allowed that luxury. Why? They realised that a tablet GUI paradigm is a massive hinderance to productivity when theres real work to be done. Tablet and phone GUIs are simplified to meet the limitations of those devices, microsoft has shoehorned it into their desktop OS simply so they can say they have a 'unified interface' regardless of its usefulness.

For basic tasks some may prefer metro on a desktop, for getting actual work done it has no place there.

 

[The Milkman]

Looking at windows 8, it seems that microsoft has taken a step backwards from windows 3.1 down to windows 1.x

I do sometimes boot up win 3.1 on my ipad though

And so once again, we have ANOTHER invalid argument for Windows 8.

Its called Desktop, and it seems almost everyone whos too busy to get off the Win8 hate wagon has yet to notice its sort of the basis of Windows 8. Metro UI was just put in to give users some familiarity and make acess to certain programs much faster and simpler.

 

[DinohScene]

Win 2k
Best windows version ever made.

 

[Rydian]

And so once again, we have ANOTHER invalid argument for Windows 8.

Its called Desktop, and it seems almost everyone whos too busy to get off the Win8 hate wagon has yet to notice its sort of the basis of Windows 8. Metro UI was just put in to give users some familiarity and make acess to certain programs much faster and simpler.

I don't see how it being the base is invalid. In fact, that graphical style being adopted into other programs is even worse than just the desktop using it.

From a design standpoint, Windows 8's Metro is a trend that I'm sure will die out soon because it's confusing to users. Even Microwaves and Ovens bother to put divisions and markers so users know what is and is not an interactable object (button, link, etc.) but Metro doesn't, which is just confusing to end-users.

I can agree with simplifying the style of things in order to reduce visual clutter and make actions clear, but by removing markers for different types of interaction, it's going a step backwards from the original goal.

 

[The Milkman]

I don't see how it being the base is invalid. In fact, that graphical style being adopted into other programs is even worse than just the desktop using it.

From a design standpoint, Windows 8's Metro is a trend that I'm sure will die out soon because it's confusing to users. Even Microwaves and Ovens bother to put divisions and markers so users know what is and is not an interactable object (button, link, etc.) but Metro doesn't, which is just confusing to end-users.

I can agree with simplifying the style of things in order to reduce visual clutter and make actions clear, but by removing markers for different types of interaction, it's going a step backwards from the original goal.

Im by no means saying the Metro was a GOOD choice, im saying that any complaints about the Metro are invaild because everything can be done from the desktop. Think of the Metro for what its always been, a full screen start menu.

 

[Pleng]

What? surely you joke?

What do you then do if say, you need to view two entirely different types of document side-by-side? Like say, a video and a notepad for example? Would you seriously expect the video player to have notepad functionality, or the notepad to have video playing functionality? No.

In a productive environment when would you ever NEED to view a video and a notepad at the same time?

 

[Rydian]

In a productive environment when would you ever NEED to view a video and a notepad at the same time?

• Writing down notes of a paused frame as you examine it.
• Marking approximate times to go back and re-examine for defects or points of interest while you watch it.
• Viewing notes and corrections.

Stuff like that.

 

[Pleng]

• Writing down notes of a paused frame as you examine it.
• Marking approximate times to go back and re-examine for defects or points of interest while you watch it.
• Viewing notes and corrections.

Stuff like that.

All good and valid points. So... presuming there's no app designed around for taking notes against videos (hmm I sniff a gap in the market if I can ever get my *** in gear) then how much of a hardship is it to have the video playing full screen. Pause and switch to a fullscreen notepad, then switching back to the fullscreen video? Well... the way Windows 8 currently deals with task switching... it *is* a hardship, but that's a flaw in Microsoft's implementation of full screen apps, not in concept itself.

 

[Rydian]

Well if you want to read while the video is going... it'd be pretty fucking annoying to be hitting Alt+Tab and Space 20 times a minute.

 

[spinal_cord]

Im by no means saying the Metro was a GOOD choice, im saying that any complaints about the Metro are invaild because everything can be done from the desktop. Think of the Metro for what its always been, a full screen start menu.

Diin't I read somewhere than Microsoft had removed the ability to use the desktop by default when loading windows? If that's true, it is being relegated to the position of a third party application. If I am not allowed to load 'desktop', the explorer that I have familiarised myself with over the last 20 years, the I see no point in the metro 'feature'.Imho Windows 8 should be the other way around, with the regular desktop as default and the tiles as a secondary app layout.

 

[The Milkman]

Diin't I read somewhere than Microsoft had removed the ability to use the desktop by default when loading windows?

No... they just made the Start Screen overlay it. You can just click the Desktop tile or hold Win key + D and it opens fine.

If that's true, it is being relegated to the position of a third party application. If I am not allowed to load 'desktop', the explorer that I have familiarised myself with over the last 20 years, the I see no point in the metro 'feature'.

Have you actually USED Windows 8? The Desktop isnt even close to a 3rd party application. Its the basis of the whole system. If you spend a good amount of time with Win 8 then you can clearly see the entire Metro UI was only put in for quick access.


Imho Windows 8 should be the other way around, with the regular desktop as default and the tiles as a secondary app layout.

There is a load of programs that you can download to do just that. Most of them are free, one I use in particular is Classic Shell.

 

[PityOnU]

Diin't I read somewhere than Microsoft had removed the ability to use the desktop by default when loading windows? If that's true, it is being relegated to the position of a third party application. If I am not allowed to load 'desktop', the explorer that I have familiarised myself with over the last 20 years, the I see no point in the metro 'feature'.Imho Windows 8 should be the other way around, with the regular desktop as default and the tiles as a secondary app layout.

It seems as though you are criticizing the OS without actually using it, as your opinion is based on what you have read as opposed to what you have experienced. Otherwise, you would not believe some of the statements you have made.

In regards to two of the points you made:

1. You can have two apps open at once in metro, and you can snap one to one side of the screen while you have one in the other. It's great for taking notes while watching a movie, and all apps must support both fullscreen and snapped mode in a user friendly manner. It's quite nice.
2. You cannot boot directly to the desktop. However, what do you do when you boot to the desktop? You immediately click "Start" and then launch a program. Launching to the metro interface is just removing the step of clicking on the "Start" button.

While I will admit that it is a valid point to say that you dislike the new Windows because it is different and therefore takes some getting used to compared to what you used in the past, I wouldn't say that's a bad thing. I also wouldn't say it makes it inherently worse. Technology changes and adapts. If it didn't, we would still be using the same type of computing devices this thread is supposed to be dedicated to.

I use Windows 8 on my non-touchscreen workstation. I find that after a period of getting used to it and learning how to use it, I am able to be much more productive and have a much more enjoyable experience than I did on Windows 7. The reasons for this are as follows:

1. All of the GUI uses GPU acceleration by default. It makes it so the interface is silky smooth. Using any other operating system feels really choppy to me now, because most still rely on the CPU to render the 2D elements.
2. Much, much, much faster boot times.
3. Longer battery life (because of the simplified interface and more efficient rendering [point 1])
4. It forced me to learn shortcut keys. I can now fly all around super quickly without ever having to reach for the mouse. It's fantastic.
5. I can sync all of my information and applications across multiple computers seamlessly (I have... let's see... 7 at my house).

The new Office is also very nice.

Windows is also extremely configurable. You can set it so that everything launches in desktop mode by default if you are using your PC for productivity instead of entertainment.

I hope that helps anyone who is confused by the new OS or has yet to try it for themselves to approach it with an open mind.

 

[Jamstruth]

Diin't I read somewhere than Microsoft had removed the ability to use the desktop by default when loading windows? If that's true, it is being relegated to the position of a third party application. If I am not allowed to load 'desktop', the explorer that I have familiarised myself with over the last 20 years, the I see no point in the metro 'feature'.Imho Windows 8 should be the other way around, with the regular desktop as default and the tiles as a secondary app layout.

Yes they made the Metro interface load first. I quite like the Start Screen now I'm used to it though and most of the time just click my Firefox shortcut to launch the desktop.

In Windows 8.1 (free upgrade coming this year) they're adding this option back in along with a bunch of other stuff (improved dual screen Metro for instance). I'm not telling you to upgrade but Win8 is really not as bad as I and many others originally made it out to be.

 

[Rydian]

2. You cannot boot directly to the desktop. However, what do you do when you boot to the desktop? You immediately click "Start" and then launch a program. Launching to the metro interface is just removing the step of clicking on the "Start" button.

Am I the only person who uses icons on the desktop anymore?

1. All of the GUI uses GPU acceleration by default. It makes it so the interface is silky smooth. Using any other operating system feels really choppy to me now, because most still rely on the CPU to render the 2D elements.

That's what AERO does, starting with Vista... accelerates the whole screen (unless a really old program starts up and kicks you back to classic). Most people didn't notice at the time, however, as most companies were still selling pieces of shit and calling them computers (mainly in regards to old integrated Intel GPUs). Remember that a lot of machines sold when this first became a thing couldn't even turn AERO on because they were too weak to accelerate the whole screen, and/or were built only up to API standards of like, 4 years beforehand. Fire up any Vista or 7 machine with AERO on, and with FRAPS and it's DWM option, you can actually record the full screen because it's using the GPU to composite and display.

Anyways, just noting that while 8 improved on the thing (likely by killing off older support that was slowing it down), GPU-accelerated stuff didn't just come out with 8.

 

[The Catboy]

Am I the only person who uses icons on the desktop anymore?

I still do!
I don't know why I would want to go to the start menu to launch a program, unless I hardly ever use that program. For programs I do use, I would rather them be on my desktop.

 

[Rydian]

I use the start menu's program search ability all the time. Tap the SUPER key, type in a few letter, hit enter.

 

[PityOnU]

Am I the only person who uses icons on the desktop anymore?

Unfortunately, no. But if this is the case, you must feel right at home in the metro start screen!

I use the start menu's program search ability all the time. Tap the SUPER key, type in a few letter, hit enter.

Then why the desktop icons?

That's what AERO does, starting with Vista... accelerates the whole screen (unless a really old program starts up and kicks you back to classic). Most people didn't notice at the time, however, as most companies were still selling pieces of shit and calling them computers (mainly in regards to old integrated Intel GPUs). Remember that a lot of machines sold when this first became a thing couldn't even turn AERO on because they were too weak to accelerate the whole screen, and/or were built only up to API standards of like, 4 years beforehand. Fire up any Vista or 7 machine with AERO on, and with FRAPS and it's DWM option, you can actually record the full screen because it's using the GPU to composite and display.

Anyways, just noting that while 8 improved on the thing (likely by killing off older support that was slowing it down), GPU-accelerated stuff didn't just come out with 8.

While I am not familiar enough with Windows Vista or 7 to comment on what is or isn't hardware accelerated in the GUI, I can definitely assure you that not all of it is. Specifically, rendering the text and the images is not. To see what I mean, try opening a large image in some of the default apps, or scrolling through a very text- and image-heavy document in Office 2010. The guys at Microsoft explain it better than I, though: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/...celerating-everything-windows-8-graphics.aspx

In regards to Aero, I would hazard that being able to turn it on and off was more to conserve memory that processing power (it eats on the order of 100MB of RAM).