Hacking So FailSt Works At The Moment?

[ploggy]

Just saw the tweets. Shame we, newbie end user won't see FailSt & Aroma stable release anytime soon.

I hope its just a minor loss of motivation an @Maschell continues on with aroma. I'm very excited to see what niceties Aroma can bring
(cough) updated Retroarch.

 

[BaamAlex]

(cough) updated Retroarch.

Retroarch is already updated...

 

[ploggy]

Retroarch is already updated...

To work with and utilise Aromas features?

 

[BaamAlex]

To work with and utilise Aromas features?

Aroma isn't even released

 

[ploggy]

Aroma isn't even released

I know, that why I'm excited for its release? the sooner Aroma's released the sooner HB can be updated to use Aromas features.

 

[godreborn]

one thing I'm hoping is that you can use the dark mode theme via the plugin manager without the problems the original way, through cbhc, causes. it's a really nice looking theme (tested it for a week). not sure why, but dkc tropical freeze--the A button to start the game--doesn't work unless you press the home menu then resume. it's only with the pro controller in dark mode too. the gamepad works just fine. and, I've tested both the original plugin manager, where you select the plugin directly as well as the one that loads the plugin by default without having to press anything. both have this problem. it's the only game I've seen so far with this strange issue. no issues with the normal wii u theme.

also, if using it with cbhc causes you to override the homebrew launcher, things like the usb loader gx forwarder on the wii u side will not work (black screen), and the homebrew launcher can't be launched via browser hax or indexiine, since the location now applies to dark mode. I'm aware of the cbhc fork that allows you to start the system with a custom elf file, but I'm too nervous to install it. I'm okay with how it is now.

 

[MikaDubbz]

I'm actually no longer looking very forward to Aroma. I was taking with Maschell on Discord awhile back and he said a few things that I'm honestly not crazy about: all homebrew apps will now naturally appear on your system menu screen (and count toward the 300 title limit) and .elf homebrew will no longer work in that environment, only .rpx. I asked if we could still have .elf homebrew in the homebrew loader and he said that would no longer work, no.

I was hoping the new environment would end up saving me a title space on my Wii U menu since I'd no longer need the DS CBHC title, but instead it seems it will only populate a bunch more title spaces instead since I have like 20 homebrew apps or so in my loader.

I dunno, unless I misunderstood what he was saying to me, I'm actually feeling more convinced to stick with CBHC and pass on Aroma. But I know it's not out yet, so maybe I got some things wrong here or there will be more positive features to the environment that outweigh what I consider to be negative here.

 

[QuarkTheAwesome]

I'm actually no longer looking very forward to Aroma. I was taking with Maschell on Discord awhile back and he said a few things that I'm honestly not crazy about: all homebrew apps will now naturally appear on your system menu screen (and count toward the 300 title limit) and .elf homebrew will no longer work in that environment, only .rpx. I asked if we could still have .elf homebrew in the homebrew loader and he said that would no longer work, no.

I was hoping the new environment would end up saving me a title space on my Wii U menu since I'd no longer need the DS CBHC title, but instead it seems it will only populate a bunch more title spaces instead since I have like 20 homebrew apps or so in my loader.

I dunno, unless I misunderstood what he was saying to me, I'm actually feeling more convinced to stick with CBHC and pass on Aroma. But I know it's not out yet, so maybe I got some things wrong here or there will be more positive features to the environment that outweigh what I consider to be negative here.

I'll have to double-check this, but afaik the homebrew-on-menu thing is implemented as a WUPS plugin and could be simply disabled like any other plugin. There's a HBL shim in the beta at least that can still run .rpx files, so that would work in a no-homebrew-on-menu environment. Unsure about the newer wuhb format, since that's optimized for the home menu.

You're right about .elf homebrew, though. Last I talked to maschell about it he had no plans to support it, though he did say I could implement it after Aroma comes out if I wanted, though I've been thinking about it and I'm not really sure *how* to actually pull that off without some next-level hackery.

With that said, even if you don't like the Aroma environment, it's still a better option than CBHC (for new installations at least). The beta at least has a boot-selector menu like CBHC's that lets you choose to boot Aroma, a fw.img, or "legacy env" (more or less what u.wiidb.de does now, just without the browser involved) which can support .elf apps.

 

[MikaDubbz]

I'll have to double-check this, but afaik the homebrew-on-menu thing is implemented as a WUPS plugin and could be simply disabled like any other plugin. There's a HBL shim in the beta at least that can still run .rpx files, so that would work in a no-homebrew-on-menu environment. Unsure about the newer wuhb format, since that's optimized for the home menu.

You're right about .elf homebrew, though. Last I talked to maschell about it he had no plans to support it, though he did say I could implement it after Aroma comes out if I wanted, though I've been thinking about it and I'm not really sure *how* to actually pull that off without some next-level hackery.

With that said, even if you don't like the Aroma environment, it's still a better option than CBHC (for new installations at least). The beta at least has a boot-selector menu like CBHC's that lets you choose to boot Aroma, a fw.img, or "legacy env" (more or less what u.wiidb.de does now, just without the browser involved) which can support .elf apps.

Hopefully I was just misunderstanding him. I suppose we'll know for sure when it officially is released eventually.

 

[Maschell]

I'm actually no longer looking very forward to Aroma. I was taking with Maschell on Discord awhile back and he said a few things that I'm honestly not crazy about: all homebrew apps will now naturally appear on your system menu screen (and count toward the 300 title limit) and .elf homebrew will no longer work in that environment, only .rpx. I asked if we could still have .elf homebrew in the homebrew loader and he said that would no longer work, no.

Like QuarkTheAwesome already said: that "displaying homebrew on wii u menu"-thing is just a plugin. I think it's a really clever and easy way to use homebrew. With this setup you don't need to install any custom channel and hitting the 300 title limit it's most likely only happening because of piracy. It's totally feasible to not use that plugin and load write a custom oldschool-hbl-like-launcher. The homebrew loading within is designed in such a way that any plugin/homebrew can load a new .rpx within just a few lines of code at any time. Loading a .rpx vs. .wuhb doesn't make a difference, it just works. So writing a HBL is pretty trivial, maybe getting the meta data from .wuhb is the most tricky part, but its also pretty easy.

The main reason for no supporting .elf files is a technical one. Aromas module system is using the memory region a "legacy .elf"-homebrew needs, so it's impossible to run Aroma and legacy-elf at the same time. Additionally these legacy-elf files expect some magic values on hardcoded memory addresses, aroma is not providing these.

Are there any particial .elf-homebrew you want to use in the future? Pretty much any major .elf should already have a plugin/.rpx version. If it doesn't have .rpx/plugin version yet, it might be easier to port this one homebrew.

Aroma itself has sooo many benefits and cool features that would not be possible while maintaining legacy-elf support (e.g. running plugins while also running a .rpx), so I really think it's worth it.

 

[MikaDubbz]

Like QuarkTheAwesome already said: that "displaying homebrew on wii u menu"-thing is just a plugin. I think it's a really clever and easy way to use homebrew. With this setup you don't need to install any custom channel and hitting the 300 title limit it's most likely only happening because of piracy. It's totally feasible to not use that plugin and load write a custom oldschool-hbl-like-launcher. The homebrew loading within is designed in such a way that any plugin/homebrew can load a new .rpx within just a few lines of code at any time. Loading a .rpx vs. .wuhb doesn't make a difference, it just works. So writing a HBL is pretty trivial, maybe getting the meta data from .wuhb is the most tricky part, but its also pretty easy.

The main reason for no supporting .elf files is a technical one. Aromas module system is using the memory region a "legacy .elf"-homebrew needs, so it's impossible to run Aroma and legacy-elf at the same time. Additionally these legacy-elf files expect some magic values on hardcoded memory addresses, aroma is not providing these.

Are there any particial .elf-homebrew you want to use in the future? Pretty much any major .elf should already have a plugin/.rpx version. If it doesn't have .rpx/plugin version yet, it might be easier to port this one homebrew.

Aroma itself has sooo many benefits and cool features that would not be possible while maintaining legacy-elf support (e.g. running plugins while also running a .rpx), so I really think it's worth it.

Cool, I look forward to seeing what its like in practice. The only .elfs I truly care about are those that forward to specific vWii homebrew like USBloader GX, Nintendont, and Super Mario War (though if someone could make a Wii U specific build of Mario War that would be one less vWii app I'd need a forwarder for from the Wii U menu). Humorously, these are Wii U homebrew apps I actually have made Wii U channels for and do want to keep on my Wii U menu. I know not everyone cares about such things, but for me this stuff really ties my whole Wii U together and it'll be a small shame if I have to remove them.

I guess what I'm curious about, if you don't mind answering is, what exactly the big benefits of this new environment will be? I know that it can be installed to something like Health and Safety instead of a random DS game, which means it also can't be deleted or moved to a hard drive, making it all the more fool-proof for accidental bricks. I know that plugins from boot that we can enable or disable on the fly is a big part of this, and that is certainly cool. I believe I asked once if we could re-enable the Wii U startup shortcut screen on the Gamepad that CBHC no longer can use, and I think you said it should be possible. Sounds like something you're not focused on, but something that feasibly could still be done in the environment, and that is really cool to me too, I loved that feature and it sucks that it can't work with CBHC.

But is that it, or is there more features it can offer that we can't already achieve in the likes of CBHC? I've seen some people proclaim it will make the Wii U faster and junk like that, but I'm fairly certain that is not on the table with this unless maybe it can overclock the vWii or something like that? I dunno, point is it still feels like something that has a shroud of mystery to it, and as such it keeps me curious. And I get it if you don't really want to talk about all of it's potential yet, I appreciate you telling us all that you have so far, when you obviously don't have to tell us anything about it yet at all.

 

[Maschell]

Humorously, these are Wii U homebrew apps I actually have made Wii U channels for and do want to keep on my Wii U menu. I know not everyone cares about such things, but for me this stuff really ties my whole Wii U together and it'll be a small shame if I have to remove them.

You don't these channels anymore. With the "homebrew from menu"-plugin you just put them on the sd card and they behave **exactly** like an installed channel.

The only .elfs I truly care about are those that forward to specific vWii homebrew like USBloader GX, Nintendont, and Super Mario War.

There is already a forwarder in .wuhb format for that: https://github.com/WiiDatabase/Boot2vWii
With this it will look like you have custom forwarding channels, but you never need to install them.

I guess what I'm curious about, if you don't mind answering is, what exactly the big benefits of this new environment will be?

Everything will (hopefully) just work. Most of the changes are from the technical side and this allows to do thing that were not possible before. Using H&S instead of a DS game is not really related to the environment at, it's "just" a new entrypoint.
- The evironment will behave exactly the same no matter which entrypoint you use.
- Everything is designed to be highly modular and everything can be updated/installed by just (re)placing files on the sd card.
- Plugins will have their own memory instead of stealing it from games. => Games will crash less often and more sophisticated plugins can be used
- Modules can export functions that can be used in any plugins/homebrew using the offical dynload api
- RPX homebrew are loaded in a much cleaner way with full permissions (instead of hijacking the MiiMaker and replacing the .rpx on PowerPC side)
- .wuhb can simulate an entire channel without installing anythig on your console. They still contain all the meta data and can even simulate/embedd the /vol/content directory. The console won't notice that the channel is loaded on the fly from the SD card, it just works. So for updating/installing a "channel", you just (re)place a single file on the sd card. Done. No packing of homebrew as .app files, no fightinh with WUP Installer anymore, not reinstalling the old version just because you want to update. It just works.
- Much easier for a dev to test things. You can send a .wuhb/.rpx/plugin at via the network **at any time** and it just loads on the console. Example: Even if your currently playing MK8, you can double click on a .rpx on your computer and it'll load up on your wii u. Same for plugins: if you load a plugin via the network, the current application restarts with the new plugin (version)
- And much more I probably forgot about.

 

[MikaDubbz]

- Plugins will have their own memory instead of stealing it from games. => Games will crash less often and more sophisticated plugins can be used

This is probably the most interesting to my purposes news to me, does this mean that SDcaffiine modpacks won't effect game loading times? I put together a large BOTW modpack that works great, but every time you get to the load screen with all the mods, it crawls, like you're left on that screen a solid 2 or 3 minutes. If this can make the game load at or close to the original wait times again, that'd be huge for me.

 

[QuarkTheAwesome]

- .wuhb can simulate an entire channel without installing anythig on your console. They still contain all the meta data and can even simulate/embedd the /vol/content directory. The console won't notice that the channel is loaded on the fly from the SD card, it just works. So for updating/installing a "channel", you just (re)place a single file on the sd card. Done. No packing of homebrew as .app files, no fightinh with WUP Installer anymore, not reinstalling the old version just because you want to update. It just works.

the completionist in me does want to mention that you don't get a unique title ID as a .wuhb, so IOSU-side things like Nintendo Network may not play ball. ofc there are no existing homebrew that use this anyway. curious if there's hooks for the SAVE api? could be a nice way to make the SD card layout even more regular instead of hardcoding paths into sd:/wiiu/apps (given the Aroma stuff knows where the .rpx/.wuhb came from on SD)

This is probably the most interesting to my purposes news to me, does this mean that SDcaffiine modpacks won't effect game loading times? I put together a large BOTW modpack that works great, but every time you get to the load screen with all the mods, it crawls, like you're left on that screen a solid 2 or 3 minutes. If this can make the game load at or close to the original wait times again, that'd be huge for me.

I'm not an expert in game modding but I would wager a significant chunk of that comes from reading from SD, which is just inherently painfully slow with a stock IOSU. that said, the Aroma/WUPS (0.4?) version of SDcaffiine can guarantee /dev/iosuhax is enabled which should give it more options for fast SD access. even forgoing that, there's been some optimizations on the backend toolchain stuff which I'm sure you've heard much about already, which a recompiled modern version would benefit from.

 

[Maschell]

curious if there's hooks for the SAVE api?

/vol/save gets already redirected to the sd card for .wuhb files