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[POLL] U.S. Presidential Election 2016

Whom will/would you vote for?

  • Laurence Kotlikoff (Independent)

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  • Tom Hoefling (America's Party)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mike Maturen (American Solidarity Party)

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RevPokemon

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It doesn't take much for something like that. Let's say much of the general public later sees pepe as racist. If enough people feel that way, there could be a level of shame on its usage, for example, that will cause even avid meme-users to avoid its usage, even if they generally see it as having a nonsense connotation. After enough time, well, you can imagine the rest of the story.
Sure theoretically that is true but I was speaking in terms of reality.

Second, I just did a silly subjective study where I invited one white 26 year-old male to look at my computer screen and tell me what he sees. He's a casual internet user who is closer to the general public than a Temper and/or meme-user, and the picture was normal pepe. He said, "Oh, that's that frog thing that's racist, right?" He was unlikely ever aware of the "random nonsense" connotation, but my point here is clear.
I do not know what you describe an average internet user as (I am assuming the popular social media websites, youtube, and perhaps a few mainstream news websites) but I feel in that in the case that you see it being used by the alt right then you are also going to see it in its original non alt right context so that it is relatively easy to tell the two apart.
 
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Lacius

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I do not know what you describe an average internet user as (I am assuming the popular social media websites, youtube, and perhaps a few mainstream news websites)
That's my definition, yeah.

but I feel in that in the case that you see it being used by the alt right then you are also going to see it in its original non alt right context so that it is relatively easy to tell the two apart.
How it's being reported by the media is an important factor.
 

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How it's being reported by the media is an important factor.

Well let's go back to your average internet user. Assuming his tastes in websites are such as those you stated then most likely his media sources are also somewhat normally. He probably is semi politically knowledgeable (he knows at least basics of what is happening in current events although he does not fully understand) and gets his digital news from local sources (i.e local big 4 affiliates and the digital arm of the area newspaper), the tv networks (CNN, FNC, MSNBC and the National Big 4 websites), and maybe a few of the more well known news papers (NYT or WaPo). A lot of the articles that discuss Pepe are not part of those news sources and when they are, they are not front page stories but probably in the politics section from the time being.

So more or less he is relativly likly to not know about this. Assuming that he does however then it has to be ask on how it is reported? Do they mention prior usage for example? If so then that makes the chances a bit smaller. If a comment mentions that then it also becomes smaller. Same if he takes the time to do a short google search.

Ultimately it is safe to say most people are either indifferent or understand the circumstances.
 
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First, whether or not you define pepe by its alt-right usage, which you obviously don't, that connotation likely comes to mind when you see it now; that was my point there.

Second, I just did a silly subjective study where I invited one white 26 year-old male to look at my computer screen and tell me what he sees. He's a casual internet user who is closer to the general public than a Temper and/or meme-user, and the picture was normal pepe. He said, "Oh, that's that frog thing that's racist, right?" He was unlikely ever aware of the "random nonsense" connotation, but my point here is clear.
Firstly, everyone participating in this discussion is familiar with Pepe and with its prior use. This particular Pepe is the tiniest of blips on the radar for everyone involved. Frankly, I had no idea there even where alt right Pepes around until Hillary told me so - all I keep getting are Trump Pepes, which are admittedly very funny.

Secondly, you asked one random person who apparently lived under a rock and has never stumbled upon Pepe for an opinion, showed him the example and got the expected result? Sounds like a great study. Do I even need to explain why "asking one random person" doesn't constitute a study, informal or not? That's just asking someone a question. Good controls, sizable test group, sounds reliable. Allin all, you're presenting an anecdote as evidence - I could easily repeat it in my circle of friends and get the opposite result..
Considering the former equals the latter, that is the whole argument.
No, it doesn't, and we established why. To use one of your own examples that I specifically disagreed with, the alt right consistently uses a set of symbols called the alphabet. If your logic held any water, prior use of the alphabet would've been irrelevant as a new group came along and usurped it. Since that's retarded, the alphabet isn't a set of white supremacist symbols.

You're consistently using the same fallacious argument you were already called out on - just because Pepe is associated with the alt right in certain circles or is being actively used by this nebulous alt right that has no representatives to speak of doesn't make it a "symbol of the alt right". The mental gymnastics you're perpetrating here are amusing, but ultimately futile.
How it's being reported by the media is an important factor.
Ah, and here we have the actual crux of the issue. Are you accusing the media of manipulation? Because we can have a healthy discussion about that, unlike the one we're having to endure now.
 
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Saiyan Lusitano

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Pepe the Frog is just a sad, misunderstood and lonely frog that needs companion. How anyone would see anything beyond that is ludicrous.
 
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Saiyan Lusitano

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Now, I'm just gonna be honest and call bullshit on the Pepe meme being racist. It isn't.

Take a look at what has happened in Germany recently: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...pelted-bottles-asylum-seekers-protecting.html

If this had been in America how would the white folks defending themselves be labelled? Just as they are in that article. "Neo-Nazis". EU and Merkel have ruined Europe but there's till hope for America to not get into the same situation.

Btw, I'm not Hungarian but if I were, I'd be proud as they're standing up to protect themselves!
 

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No, it doesn't, and we established why. To use one of your own examples that I specifically disagreed with, the alt right consistently uses a set of symbols called the alphabet. If your logic held any water, prior use of the alphabet would've been irrelevant as a new group came along and usurped it. Since that's retarded, the alphabet isn't a set of white supremacist symbols.
Once again, your analogy is just stupid. This takes us back to your false analogy of cars and air are being used by deplorable people, which doesn't mean they're being used as symbols for hate. If you can't understand that distinction, then you cannot effectively participate in this conversation. In the same way, letters are being used as graphemes, not as specific symbols for hate.

Since that's retarded, the alphabet isn't a set of white supremacist symbols.
I agree. It's about as retarded as your analogy.

You're consistently using the same fallacious argument you were already called out on - just because Pepe is associated with the alt right in certain circles or is being actively used by this nebulous alt right that has no representatives to speak of doesn't make it a "symbol of the alt right". The mental gymnastics you're perpetrating here are amusing, but ultimately futile.
Until you realize that a symbol's meaning is entirely dependent upon its association, you are going to continue to apply the association fallacy incorrectly. I really don't mean to be snide, but this was actually laughable.

Ah, and here we have the actual crux of the issue. Are you accusing the media of manipulation? Because we can have a healthy discussion about that, unlike the one we're having to endure now.
Whether or not the media's reporting on this made people more knowledgeable of what's going on with the meme and/or contributed to how people view the meme is irrelevant to the conversation.
 

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Now, I'm just gonna be honest and call bullshit on the Pepe meme being racist. It isn't.

Take a look at what has happened in Germany recently: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...pelted-bottles-asylum-seekers-protecting.html

If this had been in America how would the white folks defending themselves be labelled? Just as they are in that article. "Neo-Nazis". EU and Merkel have ruined Europe but there's till hope for America to not get into the same situation.

Btw, I'm not Hungarian but if I were, I'd be proud as they're standing up to protect themselves!
Shut up you evil racist! Those poor helpless refugees were just expressing them selves culturally by throwing rocks and glass at those evil white honky police officers! How dare those evil, racist, Hitler, Neo-Nazis think their country isn't for everyone and attack them?! I hope mother Merkal raises their monthly allowance from 3K a month to 4K a month!

Refugees welcome! Open boarders for all! Boarders are racist!
 
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Once again, your analogy is just stupid. This takes us back to your false analogy of cars and air are being used by deplorable people, which doesn't mean they're being used as symbols for hate. If you can't understand that distinction, then you cannot effectively participate in this conversation. In the same way, letters are being used as graphemes, not as specific symbols for hate.
According to your very own argument, if a symbol is used to perpetrate a hateful message, it becomes hateful as it inherits the qualities of the hateful group that uses it. Therefore, if I use the alphabet, a set of symbols, to construct a hateful message with, it would have to make the alphabet hateful, according to your own proposed logic progression, which is preposterous.
I agree. It's about as retarded as your analogy.
You're the one who posited this scenario, so I'm glad that we agree. If your explanation works only in very specific circumstances then it's not a very good example.
Until you realize that a symbol's meaning is entirely dependent upon its association, you are going to continue to apply the association fallacy incorrectly. I really don't mean to be snide, but this was actually laughable.
I thought we've established that Pepe has no particular meaning and it's merely "dressed up in it" as the user sees fit? Didn't you just spend two pages explaining how symbols don't necessarily have to have meaning in order to be symbols? Which is it - does Pepe have any intrinsic meaning or is the perception entirely dependant on the viewer's experience? This is a rethorical question since I don't associate Pepe with any particular meaning whatsoever, in fact, I was unaware of the white supremacist use until Hillary's staff told me about it, and I go into the deepest holes of the net for my lulz.
Whether or not the media's reporting on this made people more knowledgeable of what's going on with the meme and/or contributed to how people view the meme is irrelevant to the conversation.
Nice dodge. To reiterate, "how the media report news is an important factor, but it's irrelevant". Okay.

This is getting circular and we won't see each other eye to eye on the matter, so I'll just conclude by saying that I acknowledge the fact that the alt right is using the Pepe meme since that's demonstrably true, however, the meme is simultaneously being used by millions of people every day in different contexts and reporting on it as if it's used exclusively as an alt right symbol of white supremacy now or that it carries some intrinsic hateful meaning is both disingenuous and stupid.

On top of that, it's not even a subject a presidential candidate should bother addressing at all. Perhaps if the Clinton machine was more concerned about presenting Clinton's reform plan in a favourable light and explaining her policy rather than mercilessly beating up bogeymen, I would treat it more seriously. As of late, her Facebook and Twitter accounts almost exclusively post slams against Trump - nothing actually constructive. Just today I read a post from her Facebook account saying that you should vote for Hillary because Trump made business deals with Kadafi in the past. What the f*ck is that pile of horse, didn't she receive a bunch of donations from Saudi Arabia? Didn't previous presidents shake hands with Saddam Hussein before we've decided that he's inconvenient and bombed the sh*t out of him? Does it even matter? Making a business deal with someone doesn't make you responsible for what that person does, and you probably shouldn't point out that someone has a splinter in their eye if you have a log in yours. The entire political debate has changed into a mud slinging festival, and it's kind of embarrassing to even follow it.
 

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Shut up you evil racist! Those poor helpless refugees were just expressing them selves culturally by throwing rocks and glass at those evil white honky police officers! How dare those evil, racist, Hitler, Neo-Nazis think their country isn't for everyone and attack them?! I hope mother Merkal raises their monthly allowance from 3K a month to 4K a month!

Refugees welcome! Open boarders for all! Boarders are racist!
Thats some fantastic strawmanning, fox might have a job for you
 
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Saiyan Lusitano

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Shut up you evil racist! Those poor helpless refugees were just expressing them selves culturally by throwing rocks and glass at those evil white honky police officers! How dare those evil, racist, Hitler, Neo-Nazis think their country isn't for everyone and attack them?! I hope mother Merkal raises their monthly allowance from 3K a month to 4K a month!

Refugees welcome! Open boarders for all! Boarders are racist!
The patriarchy is to be blamed for it because of that, we cannot be progressive like the wonderful Middle-East are with women, gays and overall their lifestyle which is very healthy and lasts for a lifetime. Women for their own sake need to be fully clothed otherwise men cannot be responsible for their actions, women also need to shut up and take in whatever men demand, women should not be allowed to drive and nor speak (edit: because saying once isn't enough).

Down with the patriarchy and those horrible western values no one really likes!
 

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The patriarchy is to be blamed for it because of that, we cannot be progressive like the wonderful Middle-East are with women, gays and overall their lifestyle which is very healthy and lasts for a lifetime. Women for their own sake need to be fully clothed otherwise men cannot be responsible for their actions, women also need to shut up and take in whatever men demand, women should not be allowed to drive and nor speak (edit: because saying once isn't enough).

Down with the patriarchy and those horrible western values no one really likes!
I cant even begin to try to comprehend what your message is or who youre trying to convince since I dont see anyone saying we should oppress gays and women
 

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According to your very own argument, if a symbol is used to perpetrate a hateful message, it becomes hateful as it inherits the qualities of the hateful group that uses it. Therefore, if I use the alphabet, a set of symbols, to construct a hateful message with, it would have to make the alphabet hateful, according to your own proposed logic progression, which is preposterous.
Are letters being used as specific symbols for hate, or are letters being used to construct words? The sooner you understand this difference, the better.

I thought we've established that Pepe has no particular meaning and it's merely "dressed up in it" as the user sees fit? Didn't you just spend two pages explaining how symbols don't necessarily have to have meaning in order to be symbols? Which is it - does Pepe have any intrinsic meaning or is the perception entirely dependant on the viewer's experience? This is a rethorical question since I don't associate Pepe with any particular meaning whatsoever, in fact, I was unaware of the white supremacist use until Hillary's staff told me about it, and I go into the deepest holes of the net for my lulz.
Symbols usually have no intrinsic meaning. They get their meaning entirely from how they're used. Please read my posts before responding to them. As I already said, a symbol's meaning is entirely dependent upon its association.

so I'll just conclude by saying that I acknowledge the fact that the alt right is using the Pepe meme since that's demonstrably true, however, the meme is simultaneously being used by millions of people every day in different contexts and reporting on it as if it's used exclusively as an alt right symbol of white supremacy or that it carries some intrinsic hateful meaning is both disingenuous and stupid.
Then we agree. Read my posts from now on.

On top of that, it's not even a subject a presidential candidate should bother addressing at all. Perhaps if the Clinton machine was more concerned about presenting Clinton's reform plan in a favourable light and explaining her policy rather than mercilessly beating up bogeymen, I would treat it more seriously.
If you think the Clinton machine hasn't been predominantly focused on policy, then you're blind. I also don't think a single post about pepe is merciless.

As of late, her Facebook and Twitter accounts almost exclusively post slams against Trump - nothing actually constructive.
Attacking Trump for his specific rhetoric and policy positions is actually constructive.

Just today I read a post from her Facebook account saying that you should vote for Hillary because Trump made business deals with Kadafi in the past.
As the post states, Gaddafi was a terrorist and a dictator. In addition, the larger point is that his foreign business raises serious questions about a.) Trump's judgment, and b.) His ability, or lack thereof, to be president when he won't move his business to a blind trust.

What the f*ck is that pile of horse, didn't she receive a bunch of donations from Saudi Arabia?
Saudi Arabia is a not a terrorist. It's a country. The donation was also to the Clinton Foundation, not to Hillary Clinton. They were also charity donations, no business. Hillary was also not a Secretary of State at the time. Come on. You're grasping at straws again.

Didn't previous presidents shake hands with Saddam Hussein before we've decided that he's inconvenient and bombed the sh*t out of him?
No one brought that up but you.

Does it even matter? Making a business deal with someone doesn't make you responsible for what that person does, and you probably shouldn't point out that someone has a splinter in their eye if you have a log in yours.
I suggest you look into the serious judgment issues in doing business with a terrorist, and I suggest you look into the serious conflicts of interest that would exist if Trump became president and didn't remedy the situation properly, which he's unlikely to do.

The entire political debate has changed into a mud slinging festival, and it's kind of embarrassing to even follow it.
One side is slinging a lot more mud than the other. Hillary has largely been focusing on her policy positions, Trump's bad policy positions, his demagoguery, and his bigotry. Trump has been focusing on Hillary's health, etc.
 

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Are letters being used as specific symbols for hate, or are letters being used to construct words? The sooner you understand this difference, the better.
I understand the difference, you don't seem understand my point. The Pepe character, a single component, is used to construct alt right iterations of the meme, which makes it perfectly analogous to using letters to construct a racist message. Letters by themselves are not representative of any message, and neither is Pepe for the same f*cking reason. I'm surprised it took us this long to get to this point.
Symbols usually have no intrinsic meaning. They get their meaning entirely from how they're used. Please read my posts before responding to them. As I already said, a symbol's meaning is entirely dependent upon its association.
So racist iterations of the meme are racist and alt right iterations of the meme are alt right. This was never contested by anyone.
Then we agree. Read my posts from now on.
Pot and kettle.
If you think the Clinton machine hasn't been predominantly focused on policy, then you're blind. I also don't think a single post about pepe is merciless.
It's not just the Pepe article, don't be disingenuous.
Attacking Trump for his specific rhetoric and policy positions is actually constructive.
No, it's not. Don't tell me why I shouldn't pick Trump, I'll be the judge of that and base my decision on what he says - tell me why I should pick *you*, that's the purpose of your campaign. Hillary is the last person I'll ask for an opinion on Trump's policy, specifically because she has a horse in the race - she's his opponent in the election, being critical of his policies is her default position by definition.
As the post states, Gaddafi was a terrorist and a dictator. In addition, the larger point is that his foreign business raises serious questions about a.) Trump's judgment, and b.) His ability, or lack thereof, to be president when he won't move his business to a blind trust.
There are no morals in business. Trump is not responsible for what Kadafi did just because he made deals with him. The U.S. government makes deals with morally questionable individuals all the time, which doesn't make it liable for what those individuals do outside of those deals.
Saudi Arabia is a not a terrorist. It's a country. The donation was also to the Clinton Foundation, not to Hillary Clinton. They were also charity donations, no business. Hillary was also not a Secretary of State at the time. Come on. You're grasping at straws again.
Saudi Arabia is a country that funds terrorism, the Clinton foundation made deals with Saudi Arabia, the Clinton foundation belongs to the Clintons, the situation is analogous, QED. The fact that Hillary wasn't Secretary of State at the time makes it an even better analogy as Trump wasn't in public office either, so they were both private individuals minding their own business.
No one brought that up but you.
I brought it up because it's relevant and analogous to the Kadafi case.
I suggest you look into the serious judgment issues in doing business with a terrorist, and I suggest you look into the serious conflicts of interest that would exist if Trump became president and didn't remedy the situation properly, which he's unlikely to do.
Already addressed, so there's no reason to reiterate the same point.
One side is slinging a lot more mud than the other.
That's definitely true, it just doesn't work in your favour.
Hillary has largely been focusing on her policy positions, Trump's bad policy positions, his demagoguery, and his bigotry. Trump has been focusing on Hillary's health, etc.
Sure. That's why she hasn't called a press conference since December last year, aside from her alt right speech, unless I missed something. While Trump "focuses" on her health, she focuses on his tax return, so it's an embarrassing sh*t show all around.

Can we leave Pepe alone now? There's literally nothing more to talk about here and repeating ourselves over and over is exhausting.
 

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I understand the difference, you don't seem understand my point. The Pepe character, a single component, is used to construct alt right iterations of the meme, which makes it perfectly analogous to using letters to construct a racist message. Letters by themselves are not representative of any message, and neither is Pepe for the same f*cking reason. I'm surprised it took is this long to get to this point.
I get the point you're wanting to make, so please don't say I'm the one who doesn't understand. The problem is that your point isn't a good one. If you think letters, which are graphemes used to construct words, are the same as pepe, which is being used as a specific and consistent symbol for hate, despite everything I've said, then I cannot help you. When neo Nazis starting dressing the letter A as a hateful symbol and using it as an avatar, please let me know, because until then, the letter A is not being used as a specific symbol for hate; it's being used as a letter to construct words. If you want to talk about how words can be symbols for hate, great. That's another story. Your analogy is poorly constructed and has a glaring flaw that I have pointed out numerous times.

So racist iterations of the meme are racist and alt right iterations of the meme are alt right. This was never contested by anyone.
Then why are you arguing with me? It's perfectly fine for a campaign to acknowledge the consistent alt right usage and adoption of the pepe meme.

No, it's not. Don't tell me why I shouldn't pick Trump, I'll be the judge of that and base my decision on what he says - tell me why I should pick *you*, that's the purpose of your campaign.
First, if a candidate is deplorable, it's perfectly fine to say, "This candidate is deplorable for these reasons. This is one of the many reasons why you should vote for me instead." Second, the point of a campaign is to both convince you why A is good and to convince you why B is bad. Your unrealistic expectations of what a campaign is or should be is laughable.

There are no morals in business. Trump is not responsible what Kadafi did just because he made deals with him. The U.S. government makes deals with morally questionable individuals all the time, which doesn't make it liable for what those individuals do outside of those deals.
Putting aside the fact that the U.S. government has made deals with questionable individuals before, which is true, you really think it's morally okay to sustain a dictator and/or terrorist through business just because it's good for you? You think that shows good judgement from someone who is running to be president of the United States and claims to be America-first? I'm not arguing that doing business with a terrorist makes one guilty of terrorism, so don't make another one of your many strawman arguments, but it does make one an enabler.

Saudi Arabia is a country that funds terrorism, the Clinton foundation made deals with Saudi Arabia, the Clinton foundation belongs to the Clintons, the situation is analogous, QED.
If you think the Clinton Foundation made deals with Saudi Arabia, you need to do more research, because you sound like a moron who doesn't comprehend the situation. In addition, Hillary was not on the Clinton Foundation board, and she had no position of power at State when the money was donated. You're talking about donations to a charity, purely on the receiving end, not business.

I brought it up because it's relevant and analogous to the Kadafi case.
It's not. Try again.

That's definitely true, it just doesn't work in your favour.
You seriously think the Hillary Clinton campaign, which is talking policy positions, rhetoric, etc., is slinging more mud than the conspiracy-ridden alt-right Trump campaign that targets her emails, health, fake donation scandals, etc.? Remember that we're talking about the same Trump campaign that panders to outright racists and discusses policy only so far as to say "I'm not telling" and "It's going to be great"?

Sure. That's why she hasn't called a press conference since December last year, aside from her alt right speech, unless I missed something.
How the hell is this relevant to her focus on policy? lol

While Trump "focuses" on her health, she focuses on his tax return, so it's an embarrassing sh*t show all around.
While Hillary Clinton has followed the standard protocol when it comes to releasing health records, Trump has not followed the norm of releasing his tax returns. Given the very real possibility of a conflict of interest when it comes to Trump and his business, let alone questions about his tax rate, etc., it is very reasonable to want to talk about why Trump is hiding his tax return for the first time since Watergate and why he's lying about why he can't release his taxes.

In other words, presidential policy has a very real potential effect on Trump's finances. It's important that we see what those effects are, where the conflicts of interest might be, etc. Continued baseless conspiracy theories about a candidate's health is pure mud-slinging. To even compare the two things is a level of intellectual dishonesty that I'm not even surprised to see from you anymore. It's sickens me enough that I don't really want to continue this conversation.

Can we leave Pepe alone now? There's literally nothing more to talk about here and repeating ourselves over and over is exhausting.
I'll leave pepe alone when you leave Hillary Clinton's campaign alone for merely acknowledging a symbol associated with white supremacy.
 

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I'm not going to dignify the whole post with a response, I already made my case. Pepe as an extrapolated component of a message is not a hateful symbol, just like the letter "N" isn't a hateful symbol if extrapolated from the "N" word. However, both can be used to construct a hateful message, like a racist word or a racist picture. That's really all there is to say about this, you can keep disagreeing to your heart's content, I'm done - there are better things to discuss than this.

As for Clinton's charity, charities are non-profit organisations, or 501(C)'s - they're the non-profit equivalent of a corporation. They have no obligation to accept donations from anyone, especially if the donors are morally ambiguous. As far as Trump's tax return is concerned, he is not obligated to publish it - it's just a tradition. I see more potential for conflicts of interests with Clinton's charity since unlike a corporation that's publicly on the stock market or a campaign fund it is not obligated to publish its "earnings", the flow of money is not transparent. There is some real potential for abuse there, but we've already talked about that.

PS: Your letter "A" example immediately reminded me of "The Scarlet Letter", was that intentional or coincidental? Were you goading me? Because if yes, it worked - I found it humorous.
 
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