Do you believe in life after death?

[Foxchild]

I suspect that God would have eventually granted Adam and Eve access to the forbidden fruit - when they were ready. It's like if I told my 11 year old "don't drive the car, when you're old enough I'll teach you." Now, if he snuck out and drove the car anyway, you better believe I'd punish him, and I don't think I'd be an a-hole to do so. Interestingly, in the Genesis account, after they eat the fruit, God says, "now lest they take from the tree of life and eat and live forever..." and He kicks them out of Eden - why so harsh? Well, since the curse of sin would have been an eternal curse for an immortal being, God spared them that by denying them eternal life at that time. But even as He kicked them out, He promised a savior (the Seed of the woman in Gen. 3 - hinting at the virgin birth even); once Jesus took care of the sin problem, eternal life became an option for humans again (note that one of Jesus' titles is the "second Adam"). Just speculation, but I believe in Eden they had access to both, what we would call, the spiritual and physical realms. Now, I don't think the "spiritual realm" is all ethereal and magical... I think it's just as scientifically real as what we call the physical realm - it is just in dimensions that we don't have access to. After the fall, humanity was cut off from those spiritual dimensions and we can only access the physical in this life. When we die, it switches. We loose access to the physical realm, but can then interact with the spiritual one. At the Second Coming, I believe Jesus will set things right and we will have access to both once more.

 

[WeedZ]

I suspect that God would have eventually granted Adam and Eve access to the forbidden fruit - when they were ready. It's like if I told my 11 year old "don't drive the car, when you're old enough I'll teach you." Now, if he snuck out and drove the car anyway, you better believe I'd punish him, and I don't think I'd be an a-hole to do so. Interestingly, in the Genesis account, after they eat the fruit, God says, "now lest they take from the tree of life and eat and live forever..." and He kicks them out of Eden - why so harsh? Well, since the curse of sin would have been an eternal curse for an immortal being, God spared them that by denying them eternal life at that time. But even as He kicked them out, He promised a savior (the Seed of the woman in Gen. 3 - hinting at the virgin birth even); once Jesus took care of the sin problem, eternal life became an option for humans again (note that one of Jesus' titles is the "second Adam"). Just speculation, but I believe in Eden they had access to both, what we would call, the spiritual and physical realms. Now, I don't think the "spiritual realm" is all ethereal and magical... I think it's just as scientifically real as what we call the physical realm - it is just in dimensions that we don't have access to. After the fall, humanity was cut off from those spiritual dimensions and we can only access the physical in this life. When we die, it switches. We loose access to the physical realm, but can then interact with the spiritual one. At the Second Coming, I believe Jesus will set things right and we will have access to both once more.

But god is omnipotent. He knew They would fail before he created them, the garden, the earth, and punished them anyway is my point.

 

[Foxchild]

But god is omnipotent. He knew They would fail before he created them, the garden, the earth, and punished them anyway is my point.

I get what you're saying, but what are the options? God could just not make people at all, or He could make sure they never have any option other than to do what He wants them to, effectively stripping them of free will. Neither is exactly a great alternative. Ultimately, one could argue that this "failure" route was the best course to take, since, once redemption through Jesus comes into play and eventually the Second Coming restoring everything and making Jesus' followers "sons and daughters of God", humanity ends up better off than if they'd never eaten the fruit anyway. "But what about those who don't follow Jesus - it's not better for them," you say? True, but as long as the one administering a punishment is just, it is the person being punished's fault they are being punished. What I mean is... I've been a manager for almost 13 years now, and a pretty lenient one, probably too lenient a lot of the time. But, if I let you know what my expectations are, and you ignore them, I'll talk to you, I'll work with you, I'll train you. I'll come up with a reasonable plan to get you where you need to be. But, if you choose to do your own thing and not do what you're supposed to do, eventually I'll be forced to discipline you, even terminate you if it comes to that. It has nothing to do with how much I like or care about you as a person. It is you that is choosing to bring this upon yourself - I don't want to do it, but you're not giving me a choice... your punishment is your fault. Now, let's say I knew the future, that I would eventually have to punish you. You are still the one that causes that punishment to come about, it's not like I haven't warned you, my foreknowledge doesn't really change anything.

To further stretch this metaphor, let's say I've got a whole group of lousy employees. But, my son also works for this company, and he's a model employee. When corporate comes down and wants to know why our numbers are so bad, I make my son a scapegoat and fire him, to give everyone else a second chance and to try to save our store. Since I know the future, I know that several of you still won't shape up and I'll still have to fire you eventually. But, I also know that enough of you will appreciate the sacrifice my son made to make it worth it. Those who continue to slack deserve what they get. Those who work hard and get the store performing the way it should also deserve the reward they get. But I don't decide who is rewarded and who is punished, each individual does, based on how they respond to that sacrifice play.

 

[WeedZ]

I get what you're saying, but what are the options? God could just not make people at all, or He could make sure they never have any option other than to do what He wants them to, effectively stripping them of free will. Neither is exactly a great alternative. Ultimately, one could argue that this "failure" route was the best course to take, since, once redemption through Jesus comes into play and eventually the Second Coming restoring everything and making Jesus' followers "sons and daughters of God", humanity ends up better off than if they'd never eaten the fruit anyway. "But what about those who don't follow Jesus - it's not better for them," you say? True, but as long as the one administering a punishment is just, it is the person being punished's fault they are being punished. What I mean is... I've been a manager for almost 13 years now, and a pretty lenient one, probably too lenient a lot of the time. But, if I let you know what my expectations are, and you ignore them, I'll talk to you, I'll work with you, I'll train you. I'll come up with a reasonable plan to get you where you need to be. But, if you choose to do your own thing and not do what you're supposed to do, eventually I'll be forced to discipline you, even terminate you if it comes to that. It has nothing to do with how much I like or care about you as a person. It is you that is choosing to bring this upon yourself - I don't want to do it, but you're not giving me a choice... your punishment is your fault. Now, let's say I knew the future, that I would eventually have to punish you. You are still the one that causes that punishment to come about, it's not like I haven't warned you, my foreknowledge doesn't really change anything.

To further stretch this metaphor, let's say I've got a whole group of lousy employees. But, my son also works for this company, and he's a model employee. When corporate comes down and wants to know why our numbers are so bad, I make my son a scapegoat and fire him, to give everyone else a second chance and to try to save our store. Since I know the future, I know that several of you still won't shape up and I'll still have to fire you eventually. But, I also know that enough of you will appreciate the sacrifice my son made to make it worth it. Those who continue to slack deserve what they get. Those who work hard and get the store performing the way it should also deserve the reward they get. But I don't decide who is rewarded and who is punished, each individual does, based on how they respond to that sacrifice play.

I see what you're saying, and thats a very well made arguement. But the question for me is always, what's the point? What is the purpose for running the play if you know how it ends? Personally I'm an agnostic. Im not going to try and change your believes, i respect everyones personal ideals. But ill share my opinions just the same.

I'm not a fan of the new testement. Not just because I find the stories of the talking snake, or the walking on water stuff unrealistic. But because it seems as though someone had taken the Hebrew beliefs and tried to make it more appealing to the masses. Things like an eternal after life and being able to reunite with lost loved ones play perfectly on the greed that every person has. The threat of eternal punishment seems like the perfect recruitment ploy.

God himself in the new testament has been changed dramatically. Where he once wanted people to respect and appreciate the rare gift of life as there was nothing after death, now wants, above all things, to be worshipped and admired. Which to me seems like a very petty need for an ultimately divine being.

You made a great example with the business structure. I wonder what sort of goal god plans to reach with his system of management. Because all I can gather, is he wants to reward those that worship unconditionally by giving them eternal life, so they can continue to do so forever.

I grew up in a Catholic family. when I was younger I heard stories about lucifer's jealousy and his desire to torment humanity. And when I began looking into other religions, particularly the old testament, and making comparisons to the new, I was convinced that the devil himself had convinced humanity through sorcery that he was god. Taking his rivals place for the benefits of blind obedience and tormenting human beings.

At this point I believe there is no afterlife. We should appreciate what time we have in this beautiful and rare creation. With that alone we don't need commandments or fear of punishment in order to respect each other. It's the idea that we have someone giving us rules that's makes us believe we can damn others, and that we can be as harmful and greedy as we wish so long as we surrender our selves to god in the end.

Sorry, I know that was long winded.

 

[ProtoKun7]

But god is omnipotent. He knew They would fail before he created them, the garden, the earth, and punished them anyway is my point.

Not exactly. Having the power to see the future doesn't mean that the ability is always on. I have the power of sight but that's dependent on me keeping my eyes open. They had free will and they chose poorly.

The forbidden fruit is like being given a car and told to only use diesel. If you put petrol in it because the guy at the garage said petrol will be fine and it stops working you can hardly blame the person who gave you the car. Sure, the fuel station sells both petrol and diesel but that doesn't mean the petrol is for you too. You'll just have to put up with a broken car. Turns out the guy at the garage had an ulterior motive and wants the person who gave you the car to lose business.

 

[Foxchild]

I have always found the "Satan as the good guy" theory interesting. I mean, say what you want about the devil, he's smart. Why rebel against a Being who is, by definition, invincible. Is Satan really the deceiver he's painted to be or is he a champion of freedom fighting against a tyrannical God? One of the stranger things in the Bible is the battle of Armageddon. A lot of people assume Armageddon is a giant world war of some kind. According to the Bible, however, Armageddon is all the armies of the earth united to fight off Jesus at his second coming ("the kingdoms of the earth are united together against the Lord and against His Christ" Psalm 2). Used to seem weird to me; I can understand people not believing God exists or that Jesus wasn't Who He claimed to be, but to find out that it's all true and choose to fight against Him? Why would anyone do that? Then, after Jesus returns (and mops the floor with earth's armies "blood as deep as a horse's bridle"), Satan is imprisoned for 1,000 years while Jesus rules the planet. Then Satan is released and he is actually able to "deceive the nations" again and lead one final rebellion. The only reason I can comprehend why anyone would choose Satan's side would be for the freedom to live life outside of God's rules. So it really comes down to what you believe (faith anyone?) - is God the overbearing tyrant, or does He have our best interests at heart. That's why the Bible says in Hebrews "Without faith it is impossible to please God, for all who come to Him must (a)believe that He exists and (b) that He rewards those who diligently seek Him" It is not enough just to believe in God's existence (the devil believes God exists), but that He rewards those who seek Him (which the devil clearly does not believe). So, for now, I guess the choices are, choose a side or don't believe in either.

 

[Lacius]

I'm not aware of any reason to think an afterlife exists. In addition, it seems pretty obvious to me that we are the products of natural processes in our brains.

 

[mustafag32g]

We muslims believe in "life" after death, and that death is only the beginning. In the holy quran god says the following, which is really interesting.

1) It is Allah Who takes away the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep. He keeps those (souls) for which He has ordained death and sends the rest for a term appointed. Verily, in this are signs for a people who think deeply.

2) He is the Irresistible, (Supreme) over His slaves, and He sends guardians (angels guarding and writing all of one’s good and bad deeds) over you, until when death approaches one of you, Our Messengers (angel of death and his assistants) take his soul, and they never neglect their duty

3)And if you could see when the angels take away the souls of those who disbelieve (at death); they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): “Taste the punishment of the blazing Fire

God has warned us many many times in the quran, to believe in a creator. I know it may be hard to believe, because now a days everything can be proofed with scienc. But i can not see my brain, does it mean, that it does not exist ? By looking around us and seeing the complex and beautiful creations of god, you can not deny the existense of a god.

 

[WeedZ]

I have always found the "Satan as the good guy" theory interesting. I mean, say what you want about the devil, he's smart. Why rebel against a Being who is, by definition, invincible. Is Satan really the deceiver he's painted to be or is he a champion of freedom fighting against a tyrannical God? One of the stranger things in the Bible is the battle of Armageddon. A lot of people assume Armageddon is a giant world war of some kind. According to the Bible, however, Armageddon is all the armies of the earth united to fight off Jesus at his second coming ("the kingdoms of the earth are united together against the Lord and against His Christ" Psalm 2). Used to seem weird to me; I can understand people not believing God exists or that Jesus wasn't Who He claimed to be, but to find out that it's all true and choose to fight against Him? Why would anyone do that? Then, after Jesus returns (and mops the floor with earth's armies "blood as deep as a horse's bridle"), Satan is imprisoned for 1,000 years while Jesus rules the planet. Then Satan is released and he is actually able to "deceive the nations" again and lead one final rebellion. The only reason I can comprehend why anyone would choose Satan's side would be for the freedom to live life outside of God's rules. So it really comes down to what you believe (faith anyone?) - is God the overbearing tyrant, or does He have our best interests at heart. That's why the Bible says in Hebrews "Without faith it is impossible to please God, for all who come to Him must (a)believe that He exists and (b) that He rewards those who diligently seek Him" It is not enough just to believe in God's existence (the devil believes God exists), but that He rewards those who seek Him (which the devil clearly does not believe). So, for now, I guess the choices are, choose a side or don't believe in either.

Like I said, I don't believe in either. But I do find it interesting as well. If Satan is fighting this war against Christ and Christ is out to destroy mankind, then that would mean Satan is trying to protect the lives of people right? Another theory I had is, as far as I know, it doesn't actually say that Satan was a creation of god, but just a servant. It could be that these divine beings are peers as far as creation, and have a social structure not that different from ours. Perhaps this war between god and Lucifer started with how mortals were being treated. Another thing I want to point out is that Satan has notably killed a handful of people, whereas god has asked people to kill their own children, destroyed entire cities, killed all on earth except 2, and plans to destroy mankind again. So yeah, I think there might be something to this Lucifer being the good guy.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

We muslims believe in "life" after death, and that death is only the beginning. In the holy quran god says the following, which is really interesting.

1) It is Allah Who takes away the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep. He keeps those (souls) for which He has ordained death and sends the rest for a term appointed. Verily, in this are signs for a people who think deeply.

2) He is the Irresistible, (Supreme) over His slaves, and He sends guardians (angels guarding and writing all of one’s good and bad deeds) over you, until when death approaches one of you, Our Messengers (angel of death and his assistants) take his soul, and they never neglect their duty

3)And if you could see when the angels take away the souls of those who disbelieve (at death); they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): “Taste the punishment of the blazing Fire

God has warned us many many times in the quran, to believe in a creator. I know it may be hard to believe, because now a days everything can be proofed with scienc. But i can not see my brain, does it mean, that it does not exist ? By looking around us and seeing the complex and beautiful creations of god, you can not deny the existense of a god.

I think life and existence is a miracle, no doubt. But I also think that how ever it came into being is something we will never fully understand as it had to have happened outside of our reality. Also, if there is an afterlife, I don't think we would know it. Everthing we are, personality, memories, all exist as neurons and chemicals in our brains. When you die, those things are destoryed.

 

[FAST6191]

Relevant as of this last page of discussion

 

[WeedZ]

Relevant as of this last page of discussion

Dude, thanks for posting this. I've never heard of Jim Jeffries, but I now have a new favorite comedian.

 

[Haloman800]

There is convincing evidence that Jesus Christ rose from the dead after 3 days in the tomb. If that is true, all his other claims are credible (Including afterlife).

Check out the Lionsgate documentary "Case for Christ" on Dailymotion.

 

[FAST6191]

Dude, thanks for posting this. I've never heard of Jim Jeffries, but I now have a new favorite comedian.

Before you watch too many of his specials first watch a show he did called Legit. It is something of an expanded/fictionalised version of a sketch/story he used to end various shows with. I had already watched his specials by the time he made the show but if you had not seen them then the show would probably be far better (not that it was bad otherwise).

 

[WeedZ]

Before you watch too many of his specials first watch a show he did called Legit. It is something of an expanded/fictionalised version of a sketch/story he used to end various shows with. I had already watched his specials by the time he made the show but if you had not seen them then the show would probably be far better (not that it was bad otherwise).

I'll check that out for sure. I already watched two of his specials on youtube, couldn't tell you what they were called.

 

[BORTZ]

As a Christian, yes, I do believe in life after death. If anyone wants to talk feel free to PM me.

 

[Lacius]

There is convincing evidence that Jesus Christ rose from the dead after 3 days in the tomb. If that is true, all his other claims are credible (Including afterlife).

Check out the Lionsgate documentary "Case for Christ" on Dailymotion.

I've read Lee Strobel's book The Case for a Creator, and it is very obvious to me that he either did very little research or, more likely, heavily cherry-picked what he would write about. For all I know, the book/documentary The Case for Christ does a better job, but I doubt it. The existence of a historical Jesus is hotly debated to this day, and I'm unaware of any contemporary evidence of a historical Jesus' existence. Personally, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the Jesus character of the Bible had been loosely based off one or more real people, but the existence of a historical Jesus says nothing about whether or not we have any reason to think the supernatural claims of the Bible are true. In the end, belief in Christianity requires faith, and we're at square one regarding evidence for an afterlife.

 

[Haloman800]

The existence of a historical Jesus is hotly debated to this day

I've debated with many atheists. If they start claiming 'Jesus never existed' it become clear they have no idea what they're talking about & haven't done basic research. 100% of scholars agree Jesus existed (even atheists)

Virtually all scholars who write on the subject accept that Jesus existed,[5][6][7][8]

(See Wikipedia; Historical Jesus).
Since all of this is new information to you, I highly suggest you watch the documentary before responding, that way we can discuss the actual points, rather than useless conjecture based on personal opinion.

 

[Lacius]

I've debated with many atheists. If they start claiming 'Jesus never existed' it become clear they have no idea what they're talking about & haven't done basic research. 100% of scholars agree Jesus existed (even atheists)
(See Wikipedia; Historical Jesus).
Since all of this is new information to you, I highly suggest you watch the documentary before responding, that way we can discuss the actual points rather than useless conjecture based on personal opinion.

This isn't new information to me, and it is not true that "100% of scholars" agree that Jesus existed. In reality, it's hotly debated due to the absence of contemporary evidence for a historical Jesus, and views vary wildly with regard to how much an alleged historical Jesus comports with Biblical Jesus. The phrase "Jesus existed" also oversimplifies a complicated issue; many do agree that the Jesus character was likely based off one or more real people, but that's not to say anything about which parts of Bible's descriptions of Jesus are true and which are not. When a scholar says, "I believe historical Jesus existed," that does not mean he or she is talking about the same version of Jesus you believe in. I suggest reading On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt by Richard Carrier. It has been described as setting a proper standard for historicity regarding whether or not a Jesus existed.

 

[Haloman800]

This isn't new information to me, and it is not true that "100% of scholars" agree that Jesus existed.

Yes it is. Virtually every scholar is in agreement. If you can't get this basic fact right, how can we take you serious about any of your other claims?

 

[sarkwalvein]

Yes it is. Virtually every scholar is in agreement. If you can't get this basic fact right, how can we take you serious about any of your other claims?

Wait... Is this message false? I am confused.