Barack Obama or John McCain?

[Jockel]

Bush is a great President

Doubt that. Highly.
@Sonicslasher: You make me angry. You are just short sighted and stupid.

 

[CPhantom]

This is the election. 'Nuff now.

 

[abaddon41_80]

I am a Bush supporter but he is not a "great" president. He is a decent president and the media makes him out to be much worse than he really is

 

[Pizzaroo]

*post removed because everyone likes obama and I dont want this to start a flame war*

 

[VmprHntrD]

Ok I posted once and figured that would be it but I've seen a lot of misinformation and stupid comments people are writing here as fact that really just isn't true. I'm not going to refute the hell out of the stuff, but if you bothered to look farther than the evening news, foreign news, or disengenuous print media sources things would be ironed out quick.

1) The republican party and in particular McCain has NOT been playing the race card or fear of the black people card as certain public people are trying to make it appear like. The first strike was Obama like it or not. Weeks ago the man said some lines to the effect of 'they will try and scare you, they will say I'm a muslim, pick on my funny name...and on yah he is black too!' What the hell in that is not playing a race card? Just the other day he did it again except comparing it to powdered wig white dudes on the currency as a new direction. It's very uncool as McCain has tried very hard NOT to have that crap played out by his campaign...If anything credit there has to be given even if you hate that vapid celebrity hit piece on Obama.

2) Universal healthcare works, to a point, but also it really is dependent on the entire system of taxation and management of the government, but also a huge factor is total population. In a place like Canada or France where you have a sliver of the total bodies in the country you can manage it to a somewhat respectable level. The US is over 300M people now, the level of taxation under the current system would break the back of the country, a massive overhaul of the system would need to take place, but also just with the population the level of tax would be insane to fund it. Combine all that just with the general turn around time for free healthcare going into the weeks or worse depending on things, it's a bad idea. What needs fixing is a massive overhaul of both the way the insurance industry handles claims, but also how both the doctors overcharge for services and how medical suppliers massively overprice their items for sale which snowballs through the doctors into your wallet.

3) McCain has more qualifications than being shot down and beaten for a few years in Vietnam. Go check his war record, at least the highlights of it up on the Wikipedia. You don't become a highly decorated Colonel in the armed forces being a punching bag to the enemy.

4) Only republicans are taking the 'low road' with politics. That's crap. Go check politico.com which pounce on both sides evenly and you'll see a sharply different image of how and what is doing it to whom. Both sides play it dirty and damn well evenly enough. Obama has done stuff, McCain has done stuff...neither is a patron saint.

5) Prophet Problem with socialism? Not everyone deserves to have everything everyone has being 100% equal. It doesn't work, it can't work, humanity on the whole wouldn't tolerate it. A great way to put this let me see. Say I give you $100 as a gift for doing me a huge favor. Some guy comes up to me seeing me do that and bitches about it saying it's not fair because he can do it too or whatever else, and me being the good socialist wanting everything to be equal and free takes $50 from you and gives it to him despite the fact YOU worked for your $100 and now got 1/2 pay. Do you think you'd feel screwed? Yah it's a crude example, but everyone does a certain job in society, some make more, others make less but what you earn you earn, and it's not any governments right or task to say even though that guy sat on his butt for 1/2 a day and worked bagging groceries for the other half, and you who worked 8hrs in a factory should have the same benefits and pay to be socially fair. It's crap.

6) Like it or not a solid energy plan is to run up the cost of gas over $4 and try and ram through solar, wind and water as the future that's hear now as it's not, and it's not viable to run much of anything in many corners of the country while it is in others. A viable plan is all encompassing, you need to lease the land (not taxing but making $ off the companies) to go after oil. While doing so, you can use this money either to finally strongly research 'new energy' and apply it, or use it toward another part of the country that is budgetarily suffering.

7) Bush Jr = McCain == BULLSHIT. While they do agree on a few things, such as the 'surge' working, drilling on top of going after all new sources of energy, and some others, they more disagree than agree. I can't list them all, it's a bitch but for starters go look at his record from the 1990s, and if you want recent try McCain-Feingold and McCain-Kennedy as a start. Bush don't like working with dems, he also doesn't listen to people who have ideas...McCain does both and works with them at times too.


Gamesphere - If you consider yourself informed, up to date, and getting even news you're a lost cause. NBC is the most left leaning tv media outlet of news and Olbermann tips the scales quite far to the left, not to insanity by any means but he's no centrist. Seriously...if you have to watch that balance it out with the right leaning Fox, or screw both and go read the BBC and the AP News if you want something with opinion tossed out and facts thrown in.

 

[Dack]

I believe it was "the now show" on Radio 4 that had Obama on the 'Bob The Builder' ticket - Can we fix it....yes we can! while McCain was on the "now why did I come in here again" ticket.

 

[Sonicslasher]

@Vampire
I completely agree with you!

 

[VmprHntrD]

My time in college was spent in political science for the full run with an emphasis on parties and politics, then sprinkled in some constitutional law, international politics and policy as well, and some political philosophy. I tend to keep up, know how to sift out the bullshit, and know places I can go to get the minimal to no-spin answers when I want them. Sadly in this day you have of the big 3 in cable news one leans moderately right (far if you count Hannity), CNN is moderately left, and NBC is far left. The print media depending on what market you're in is mostly moderate to moderately left, few tilt right, some go nutbag left like the NY Times. As far as the world news outlets, much just play off what gets pumped out from our markets to theirs so it's taken on face value coupled with the popular negative american stereotype the stupid population here on the whole arrogantly reinforces without any damn clue of it or care. The AP news I know is a nice level headed bit, and the BBC ignores the spin and bothers with research thankfully, and Reuters doesn't get nut bagged out really either.

But, if you want level political commentary and news releases 365/7 use POLITICO.COM as they give it all over the whole spectrum and I haven't seen any covered agendas as even the opinion pieces have other editors who counter with theirs so you can get both sides.

 

[Prophet]

5) Prophet Problem with socialism? Not everyone deserves to have everything everyone has being 100% equal. It doesn't work, it can't work, humanity on the whole wouldn't tolerate it. A great way to put this let me see. Say I give you $100 as a gift for doing me a huge favor. Some guy comes up to me seeing me do that and bitches about it saying it's not fair because he can do it too or whatever else, and me being the good socialist wanting everything to be equal and free takes $50 from you and gives it to him despite the fact YOU worked for your $100 and now got 1/2 pay. Do you think you'd feel screwed? Yah it's a crude example, but everyone does a certain job in society, some make more, others make less but what you earn you earn, and it's not any governments right or task to say even though that guy sat on his butt for 1/2 a day and worked bagging groceries for the other half, and you who worked 8hrs in a factory should have the same benefits and pay to be socially fair. It's crap.

What you earn you earn? Is this the same capitalism that allows the privileged to live off of trust funds, never lifting a finger, while the less fortunate work them selves weary for minimum wage?

Your example and argument are as simplistic as they are flawed. You seem to believe that many people are lazy and they should starve for it rather than being coddled by the system. That is a point I grant you, however it isn't a point against socialism but rather a statement made against the ills of mankind as a whole. Socialism is the philosophy of equality in all things. EQUALITY in work-load as well. I often think of socialism as a function of higher evolution; a tier that mankind is not quite ready to ascend to. But the way you speak of it is as if we should not still aspire to reach it.

Furthermore, not only have you made a very clumsy attempt at explaining the ills of socialism (A system I fear you lack any insight into), but you seemingly sweep the flaws of capitalism under the rug. There is a facade to capitalism that few seem to be capable of piercing; a proverbial carrot on a stick. YOU CAN GET RICH HERE !!! RAGS TO RICHES!!! yada, yada. The truth is this: yes you can go from rags to riches, but you can also be born into your rags and die in them. You can be born into rags and face an insurmountable journey to riches, while some men are born with the world handed to them. Capitalism allows the exceptional and the lucky, to excel/maintain. But for the laymen, for the rank and file men and women of a capitalist nation there is no probable climb; for them they must resign them selves to the class they were born into. And this is the system you choose to endorse? A system that would see to it that the rich stay warm and the poor stay cold, with no care for fairness nor equality.

Gandhi once said, "There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed." When I find people who seemingly foam at the mouth at the very mention of socialism, I attribute it to their greed getting the best of them. Your example plays right into this. Socialism is not about taking something from one person and giving it to someone else. It is about reclaiming, it is about redistributing, that which in all rights already belongs to the people. We are all American's and it is only just, that the America I live in is equal to the America you live in. I deserve a place to rest my head at night, independent of my social and financial standings. I deserve to not die of illness, because my parents are living check to check. When a child is born it should not feel as though it is some twisted lottery. Birth should not be a race, where those fortunate enough to be born into middle class start closer to the finish line.

I argue this: Capitalism is only appealing to those who she has seen fit to bless. Come take a walk through the projects with me, tell me what has capitalism done for them.

 

[VmprHntrD]

Your socialist utopian insanity is about as flawed as my intentionally overly basic swipe at the unfairness of socialism in society. I'm not privledged, I don't make 50K a year, but I don't feel entitled to all the crap someone making 100k+ a year does. They do their purpose in life and earn a pay commensurate with what they do, and what I do in life gets me the pay that I earn.

I don't need your 'projects' crap excuses either. I've had to deal with unemployment and it drying up, selling off large amounts of what little property I have, sucking up to get cash from family for what I could, extending loans/taking out lines of credit, and not making ends meet for a few years. Just in the last 2 years I've mostly dug that pit full of dirt but still have a ways to go. No, I don't like someone else can drive around in some 4MPG Hummer and not give a fuck, but I don't feel that I should be entitled to every damn thing that person has either.

I understand the concept that socialism is a form of equality. I don't agree that capitalism allows those who already have to be graced for life into such a level of well being. One well sized bad decision, one stupid comment the press will eat up, one financial blunder and they'll be brown bagging $2 wine with a screw top just as much as some screw top wine drinking bum could find a way to get away from that and get a job and a new start. Either way it's hard to blow and hard to bounce away from it, but it can be done. I have zero respect for someone who is disadvantaged who just pisses and whines the world isn't fair and they deserve this, that, and the other thing just as much as I hate some entitled feeling rich piece of crap brat who has an inheritance coming so it never likely will matter for their snobbish piece of crap existence what the little people do.

What you see in socialism as reclaiming is just a fancy word for what you're saying people piss you off with, which is them saying stealing. Stealing, reclaiming...at the root they're just the same form of redistribution of wealth. The thing is, the concept of stealing and reclaiming are taking some basic need or tangible from someone who has it away, and giving it to someone else who hasn't to make things more fair...more socially right...equality as you said. I never said someone deserves to die and rot in a pit of they can't take care of themselves, but what I am saying is that to make sure someone doesn't drop and rot you don't take such vast amounts way at exponential levels depending on how much more you make as that's just insane.

 

[Prophet]

Your socialist utopian insanity is about as flawed as my intentionally overly basic swipe at the unfairness of socialism in society.
Intentionally? Do you fear complexity?

I don't need your 'projects' crap excuses either. I've had to deal with unemployment and it drying up, selling off large amounts of what little property I have, sucking up to get cash from family for what I could, extending loans/taking out lines of credit, and not making ends meet for a few years.
All of those safety nets still seem like luxuries that many survive and die without.

I understand the concept that socialism is a form of equality. I don't agree that capitalism allows those who already have to be graced for life into such a level of well being. One well sized bad decision, one stupid comment the press will eat up, one financial blunder and they'll be brown bagging $2 wine with a screw top just as much as some screw top wine drinking bum could find a way to get away from that and get a job and a new start. Either way it's hard to blow and hard to bounce away from it, but it can be done.

The fact that a man can lose his wealth, does not make it anymore fair that he has been unjustly and inherently blessed while other men no less deserving have been left to struggle from the bottom. Did you even read my post?

QUOTE(Vampire Hunter D @ Aug 3 2008, 04:18 AM)

What you see in socialism as reclaiming is just a fancy word for what you're saying people piss you off with, which is them saying stealing. Stealing, reclaiming...at the root they're just the same form of redistribution of wealth. The thing is, the concept of stealing and reclaiming are taking some basic need or tangible from someone who has it away, and giving it to someone else who hasn't to make things more fair...more socially right...equality as you said. I never said someone deserves to die and rot in a pit of they can't take care of themselves, but what I am saying is that to make sure someone doesn't drop and rot you don't take such vast amounts way at exponential levels depending on how much more you make as that's just insane.

You have just jumped the shark my friend. Stealing and reclaiming are not the same, in anyway. Here let me get the old dictionary:

Steal: to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force.

Reclaim: To claim back; to demand the return of as a right; to attempt to recover possession of.

Your idea of Socialism seems to resemble a Robin Hood justification; stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. This is almost right, but where you see Robin Hood as “stealing” I see him as “reclaiming” gold for the unfairly taxed.

This is Socialism. Every man is born with inalienable and innate liberties, most chiefly: A share of the earth. Every person, owns a piece of this world and we are within our rights to choose not to share our piece. That is fine, but we must consider this: if our ancestors had done that what would have ever been accomplished? Civilization has flourished because men have decidedly come together and pooled their resources, in hopes of building together that which they could never erect alone. This is the basis of civilization; the idea that we fare better in mass then we do alone. What we have today is the very product of this archaic pact made by our ancestors; a pact that we have sadly abandoned. The thrones that were built by the toil of the many are now occupied by the few. When a man is born today, he is born with the same rights that he would have received at the dawn of civilization: a share of the earth, a share of it's wealth, a share of it's tragedies, a share of its wonders. No one should be allowed to monopolize the fruits of civilization, because “civilization” is an endeavor that we all have a stake in, an endeavor that some of us have given blood for and some have given sweat to and some have done little for and some have done much for, but all have done their best by. Yes, this is the greatest tenant of socialism, it's success hinges on all of us doing our best and I believe this is where me and you begin to drift apart. Because you believe some men are innately lazy, happy to reap the rewards of another man's toil. And in our society, this does exist. In fact it runs rampant. But the error you make is in assuming that it is the men that are corrupt rather than the system. I don't believe myself to be naive, nor optimistic but I have faith in the spirit of man. I have faith that if food is provided, if basic luxuries are given, if happiness is not stifled... if men are not pitted against one another fighting for status/wealth/survival, then I believe that instinctively we will share the burden fairly. We will carry our weight and rejoice at how surprisingly light the burden is. In a true socialist state, (which the world has yet to see) I believe that men will continue to do that which is in the best interest of self and I believe what is best for self will simultaneously be what is best for the group and the nation.

 

[Apex]

I am a Bush supporter but he is not a "great" president. He is a decent president and the media makes him out to be much worse than he really is

So you know him personally?

The media works with what it's given.

 

[solange82200]

Ugh, I'm shocked at all the nasty conservatives on here. Yuck.

Anyway, I agree Obama isn't the most experienced candidate, but I would rather vote for Sonic the Hedgehog as president rather than have a Rethuglican in power again. They disgust me beyond belief. A bunch of redneck warmongers. Have you ever listened to Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly? That basically sums up what the majority of Republicans think. What a bunch of evil fucktards. And no, I do not want the US to be a socialist country. I do not want Universal Healthcare. But you know what I want less? A fucking worthless WAR that is costing us 12 BILLION DOLLARS per MONTH. For what??? What do WE get out of it? What do I get out of it????? Most of Iraq doesnt even want our help. Bush IS the worst president ever, I am repulsed at the idiots who voted for him. Maybe that is why Bush hasn't bothered hunting down Osama Bin Laden, because he knows he owes him one. If 9/11 wouldnt have happened, he wouldn't have been able to get elected again using his fearmonger tactics.

Oh, and I would like to know what you republicans think of Dick Cheney's little bullshit answer when asked what he thinks about the majority of American's disapproving of the Iraq war. Remember, when he said "So?"? You people are proud of that? You have a vice president representing you who doesn't even care what you think? Yeah, that's real fucking American!

 

[DarkAura]

I swore I posted here.... Where did mah post go?

Oops, I mixed up this topic with another. They sound similar to me. Merge?

 

[solange82200]

Vampire Hunter, McCain himself isnt stupid enough to play the race/muslim card, but have you heard any of the Republican talk show hosts or tv show hosts? They make a point of referring to him as Barrack HUSSEIN Obama, meanwhile never using any other candidate's middle name, they talk nonstop about the fact that he must be like Jeremiah Wright, insinuating that he hates white people. They more or less call Michelle Obama a militant, all because of the "For the first time in my adult life I'm really proud of my country" comment, which even LAURA BUSH took her side on, saying that it didn't come out the way it was intended to. All the people that Republicans look up to (Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc.) ALL do the exact same things that Obama is saying they do. They take everything he says or does and miscontrues it, meanwhile giving McCain a free pass. They love to talk about Michelle Obama's verbal slip, but you never hear them mention how Cindy McCain was a drug addict who stole from her own charity. So seriously, I dont see how you can say that Obama is lying when he says that "they" do those things. It's a fact

 

[SylvWolf]

Vampire Hunter D is the most intelligent person in here. I was going to make a few posts similar to yours, but I think you summed up almost everything I had to say nicely.

Oh, and on communism. It just doesn't work. It kinda seems good on paper, but name me one time when it has truly succeeded. There's always political corruption, and there's always a group of people doing better than the common people. The only way for communism to have a hope of working is if the leaders can be equal to the subjects, and it is against human nature to do that. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Honestly, it would take a George Washington, and people just aren't like that anymore. In communism, EVERYONE has to be equal, and that is why it will always fail - people, for all they say, like to be better than others.

And I support McCain. He may not be the best candidate and I certainly would've rather seen a different Republican, but I just can't see Obama doing a good job as president. Raising taxes at this stage of the game would completely destroy the US economy. It's doing bad now but wait until taxes are raised... And the war in Iraq, no matter if you agree with it or not, has to be finished right. If we pulled out now, the situation would fall apart and violence would shoot right back up. What would the last 5 years mean if that were to happen? Again, McCain is surely not the best candidate for president but he's the best we got right now.

Might as well tackle Bush. He hasn't been the greatest president, nor has he really been a good one. He's been an average to below average president. And he's not responsible for much else besides the war in Iraq. The gas prices, economy, and housing crisis are all out of his control. I don't know what you people think he can do about that. He seems like an idiot, but I still think that's just an act. And he's definitely not the worst president ever. There have been much worse. Buchanan anybody? Seven seceded states and no action? Look it up sometime.

Go America. Peace out.

 

[ca82686]

this thread is still going on? wow, an actual bush supporter, are you one of the 10% of people who still support him? i feel like I'm meeting a celebrity, may I have your autograph? Anyways, how will making the bush tax cuts, which have crippled our economy as it is, permanent help any more than raising taxes? Say what you will, but theres one things the democrats can do most of the time, and that is balance the budget. I'm sure some political scientists will site examples from wikipedia refuting this, but, its true. There is no evidence that if we pulled out now that everything would fall apart, the leader of iraq agreed that we need some sort of scaled back withdrawl of troops, thats what is crippling our economy, a war that was made because saddam tried to kill bush's daddy, and to finish what he started.

Also reagan wasn't the greatest president, he wasn't even close, why does everyone keep insisting he is a hero? Anyways, if you support McCain, you support the downfall of the United states of America, and 100 years in iraq, and most likely a war with iran as well, as he so cheerfully sung "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb iran". So way to go. With Obama we at least have a chance at having a decent president and a chance at restoring our place at home and abroad as the land of opportunity and not a war mongering police state. With McCain the chances are 0, and we'll just have business as usual, and a 3rd term for bush, or perhaps even worse.

 

[Heran Bago]

He may not be the best candidate and I certainly would've rather seen a different Republican, but I just can't see Obama doing a good job as president. Raising taxes at this stage of the game would completely destroy the US economy. It's doing bad now but wait until taxes are raised... And the war in Iraq, no matter if you agree with it or not, has to be finished right.

Yes because continually lowering taxes on the rich and blowing money we don't even have on another pointless war can only help the economy. It worked these last several years. Historically, war does stimulate the economy, but recent examples like the Korean war and this thing show you have to go about it the right way or it just doesn't work.

What the American economy needs is a real Republican. We haven't seen one of those in like 20 years and I don't think we'll see another one in quite some time, if ever. The republican party, as a political party, has gone to shit.

Obama would at least help our global image. I'm not crazy about either candidate really...

 

[ca82686]

yeah, the republicans were at least a bit more respectable when they actually stood for things and had ideals and ideas and such, but as of recent they turned into a religious cult, thinking that women have no rights to do anything other than make babies so they can grow up to be dead soldiers, stoning gay people for being different, and war mongers, slinging more hate speak into a debate that it would make a muslim extremist blush. They reject science like stem cells, which could potentially cure every disease known to man, and are holding us back as a species.

 

[aslacker55]

yeah, the republicans were at least a bit more respectable when they actually stood for things and had ideals and ideas and such, but as of recent they turned into a religious cult, thinking that women have no rights to do anything other than make babies so they can grow up to be dead soldiers, stoning gay people for being different, and war mongers, slinging more hate speak into a debate that it would make a muslim extremist blush. They reject science like stem cells, which could potentially cure every disease known to man, and are holding us back as a species.

I'm a Republican, served in the army, yes I'm religious, I'm also anti-abortionist, I don't believe in same sex marriage, my stand point on fetal stem cells is obvious (anti-abortionist), and I support my Commander in Chief's decision.

Does that mean that I'm holding back my species or I'm in a cult? Or may be you just don't like us and our way of thinking.