Logic behind Christianity?

Pyrmon · Jul 11, 2011

[quote name='ManFranceGermany' post='3768584' date='Jul 11 2011, 11:15 AM'][quote name='PyroSpark' post='3767068' date='Jul 10 2011, 08:11 PM']I've looked into this before, but it seems that whenever I get close to believing, something comes up and makes me say "wait, what?" and puts me back to square one.So, is it possible to be a Christian if you're a logical thinker AND have not been raised with religion?[/quote]

Lets face it, Religions are for morons. Thats the case for all Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam). At least the Buddhists and Hindus doesn't have this arrogance you can find in all Abrahamic religions.

Did you ever read the Quran? Its not any better!
And now let the hate of the muslims on Gbatemp begin "no, you're not right, Islam is the best, you just had a bad translation or misinterpreted it, Islam is so peaceful and wonderful" ... yea sure... as peaceful as Christians, which made million of crusades and killed Muslims and Jews.
And about Judaism, don't let me even begin.

The most funny part is, this strict muslims which want the sharia law(islamic law), are not any worse than strict Christians and Jews.
In Israel strict Jews, don't even want to sit beside women ina bus! can u imagine that shit? they want to have seperate buses! Same things for strict Christians.
Maybe they should talk with each other and see that they want the same idiotic shit.

This three Religions say that they did so much good to the people, really, do you believe that native Americans or older cultures didn't have a working society and they were less peaceful as us today??? do this religious people really believe this???

People might say, that at time of Judaism, later Christianity and even more later Islam, religious rules (don't kill other people, don't steal...yea, seems that we had to learn this...lol) were good. This might be true, i mean lets face it, rapes were normal, women had even less rights than what this religions finally gave them. But today they are a relict!

Ask a strict Christian, Jew, Musilm which religion is the best... do you really belive he will say, "mine is good, but the other is just fine too"?

For making a long story short, all religions are unlogic.
[/quote]
I'm Muslim and I don't really appreciate you calling me a moron. Especially since you don't have the ground to say so.
And just what do you have against my religion? You say it's violent and barbaric, yet you don't say why.
Why do you associate all Muslims with hate? Especially the ones on the temp? I don't think any Muslim temper has said or done anything to deserve that.
Extremists do not represent the majority in any religion. You cannot hold their actions against the moderate majority.
The values of my religion still hold up in the modern world. I get much wisdom from it.
Again, you talk about the extremists as if they represent all of us. You can't do that. My religion is good, but the others are just fine too. I don't think they are right, but they are fine nonetheless.
You didn't provide any real arguments to say that all religions are illogic.

cwstjdenobs · Jul 11, 2011

[quote name='Foxi4' post='3768618' date='Jul 11 2011, 04:39 PM']Christianity does not condemn people of different or no faith at all, it just assumes that said person was misguided,[/quote]

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Nope it says you can't be an Atheist, or of another faith, it's all apparently so obvious and you are lying by saying you don't believe so being wicked.

EDIT:
[quote name='Pyrmon' post='3768642' date='Jul 11 2011, 04:48 PM']And just what do you have against my religion? You say it's violent and barbaric, yet you don't say why.[/quote]

What's the penalty for [censored]? Who gets punished? Enough said. I know you say you only follow the Koran and take no notice of the Hadiths, but you are in the minority on that point. You can't take your minority interpretation and say that is what Islam is the same way we can't take the bomb happy lunatics and do the same with there interpretations.

Magmorph · Jul 11, 2011

[quote name='Foxi4' post='3768618' date='Jul 11 2011, 09:39 AM']Christianity does not condemn people of different or no faith at all, it just assumes that said person was misguided, however if he or she acted morally throughout his/her life, an "exception" is made.[/quote]
What evidence do you have to back up this claim? That is certainly not the message I got from reading the Bible. Your version of Christianity does not make up Christianity as a whole. You call the Bible fictional and apparently disagree with what the majority of Christians think. In what way do you consider yourself to be a Christian?

Jamstruth · Jul 11, 2011

[quote name='Pyrmon' post='3768642' date='Jul 11 2011, 03:48 PM'][quote name='ManFranceGermany' post='3768584' date='Jul 11 2011, 11:15 AM'][quote name='PyroSpark' post='3767068' date='Jul 10 2011, 08:11 PM']I've looked into this before, but it seems that whenever I get close to believing, something comes up and makes me say "wait, what?" and puts me back to square one.So, is it possible to be a Christian if you're a logical thinker AND have not been raised with religion?[/quote]

Lets face it, Religions are for morons. Thats the case for all Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam). At least the Buddhists and Hindus doesn't have this arrogance you can find in all Abrahamic religions.

Did you ever read the Quran? Its not any better!
And now let the hate of the muslims on Gbatemp begin "no, you're not right, Islam is the best, you just had a bad translation or misinterpreted it, Islam is so peaceful and wonderful" ... yea sure... as peaceful as Christians, which made million of crusades and killed Muslims and Jews.
And about Judaism, don't let me even begin.

The most funny part is, this strict muslims which want the sharia law(islamic law), are not any worse than strict Christians and Jews.
In Israel strict Jews, don't even want to sit beside women ina bus! can u imagine that shit? they want to have seperate buses! Same things for strict Christians.
Maybe they should talk with each other and see that they want the same idiotic shit.

This three Religions say that they did so much good to the people, really, do you believe that native Americans or older cultures didn't have a working society and they were less peaceful as us today??? do this religious people really believe this???

People might say, that at time of Judaism, later Christianity and even more later Islam, religious rules (don't kill other people, don't steal...yea, seems that we had to learn this...lol) were good. This might be true, i mean lets face it, rapes were normal, women had even less rights than what this religions finally gave them. But today they are a relict!

Ask a strict Christian, Jew, Musilm which religion is the best... do you really belive he will say, "mine is good, but the other is just fine too"?

For making a long story short, all religions are unlogic.
[/quote]
I'm Muslim and I don't really appreciate you calling me a moron. Especially since you don't have the ground to say so.
And just what do you have against my religion? You say it's violent and barbaric, yet you don't say why.
Why do you associate all Muslims with hate? Especially the ones on the temp? I don't think any Muslim temper has said or done anything to deserve that.
Extremists do not represent the majority in any religion. You cannot hold their actions against the moderate majority.
The values of my religion still hold up in the modern world. I get much wisdom from it.
Again, you talk about the extremists as if they represent all of us. You can't do that. My religion is good, but the others are just fine too. I don't think they are right, but they are fine nonetheless.
You didn't provide any real arguments to say that all religions are illogic.
[/quote]
TO be fair he never once mentioned Islamic Extremists. He was just saying that you would assume he was making that generalisation and say to him how peaceful Islam really is (and you have...proving his point) He talked about extremists in all religious sects. Christian ones are annoying as hell, Jewish ones are annoying as hell it just so happens that your ones seem to be the most violent to western society for some reason. He mentioned the violence of the Crusades (Christianity is peaceful my arse. Those were based on "Convert or die and be tortured in hell for your sin!" Yay for religion!!)

He was making broad sweeping statements about all religions so yeah...

Wolvenreign · Jul 11, 2011

Let us begin the unmaking.

What I am about to show you is a contradiction of sorts. Not within the Bible itself. Those are far too easily brushed away. Rather, I wish to show a contradiction between the Bible's portrayal of life and people, and the reality of the world.

Remember first and foremost, the Holy Bible's tenant for salvation. "Believe in Jesus Christ, redeem your sins and have faith that He died for your sins." (Paraphrasing.)

Now, look at the world around you. Human beings are curious and intelligent. We do the greatest good in this world by providing new technology to feed those who may not have eaten otherwise. The production of technology, however, requires the practice of something which is entirely, totally opposite to faith. I speak of science.

How is science opposite to faith? Science is the practice of never, ever taking anything for granted. Trial and error, innumerable tests, all in the name of accepting one's human finality and getting just a little bit closer to the truth each and every time. Technology is just applied science, and it has been our greatest tool for benevolence. Even when it was used for evil, in the name of war, it was used by those who had faith in their country, faith in the system, and faith that they would win. Technology and science ask for no faith; only a curious mind and the desire to make the world a better place.

Now, let's get back to the Bible. Remember what I said about faith being the ultimate tenet? I wasn't kidding. You can do all the evil in your life that you please, so long as you confess your sins just before you die. That's beside the point, however...

The real point here is that, according to the Bible, your faith determines whether or not you will burn eternally, or live in stoic paradise with the creator of all things. Here is where the paradox lies.

God is supposed to be three things. Omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent. The second one is called into question here.

How can a God who loves all things create a curious advancement-by-applied-science race, and then make the sole difference between them burning for all eternity and living in utter paradise...whether or not they keep faith about one thing that happened/will happen (depends on what age it is in humanity) with no constant evidence and only fear to back it up?

Allow me to sum this up briefly for you. If God were omnibenevolent, he would have no reason to set up a condition in which those who take nothing for granted burn in hell forever.

I call this paradox, "The Curiosity Paradox".

A side note to all those raised Christian. I was once like you. Fighting for the church because they're your friends, your family, because it's what you were raised to believe, even if you don't want to admit that to yourself.

Let me tell you; I was raised to be a minister. I was given literary training, reasoning ability, and skill in the debate arts. I was trained night and day to spread the "good word". I didn't hate it at the time. I thought I was going to do the world a favor, and stop my friends who were not Christian from burning for all eternity. As time went on, though, I became brighter and brighter. It wasn't long before the ravening curiosity that comes with a thirst for knowledge would get to me. I had to see the world without pretenses. I had to cease assuming that the Bible was correct...and when I did, I felt a great relief pass through me. I began to question my assumptions until they were no more.

After all of that, I can confidently say that no amount of family upbringing is worth the mental slavery, the utter sheepishness that comes with submitting your mind and soul to an unthinking, unquestioning faith. Don't let yourself continue to rationalize when you have yet to take off the lenses and see the world for yourself.

And with love, I will say...don't be afraid.

Foxi4 · Jul 11, 2011

[quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3768668' date='Jul 11 2011, 05:58 PM'][quote name='Foxi4' post='3768618' date='Jul 11 2011, 04:39 PM']Christianity does not condemn people of different or no faith at all, it just assumes that said person was misguided,[/quote]

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Nope it says you can't be an Atheist, or of another faith, it's all apparently so obvious and you are lying by saying you don't believe so being wicked.
[/quote]

It's a false doctrine.

1. IF YOU BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR
THEN YOU DO NOT GO TO HELL

2. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST
AND YOU HAVE NOT HEARD THE GOSPEL OR DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT
THEN YOU ARE JUDGED BY THE NATURAL LAW (OR BY THE MOSAIC LAW
IF YOU ARE A JEW.) THE ROYAL LAW ("You shall love your neighbor
as yourself") FULFILLS ALL THE REQUIREMENTS OF BOTH THE MOSAIC
LAW AND THE NATURAL LAW (according to Galatians 5:14).

The Natural Law is approximated in the Ten Commandments
(see Exodus 20:1-17) together with The Great
Commandment (see Matthew 22:35-40). The Royal Law,
so named by James, is "You shall love your neighbor
as yourself" (see Galatians 5:14, James 2:8).
The Mosaic Law is all the Law of the Old Testament.

3. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST
AND YOU HAVE HEARD THE GOSPEL AND UNDERSTAND IT
(but you reject it nevertheless)
THEN YOU GO TO HELL

. . . unless Jesus decides to take mercy on you, which He as Judge,
is allowed to do.
~http://www.internetchurchofchrist.org/pearl-doallnonchristiansgotohell.html

B. Can non-Christians be saved?
The "no" position: non-Christians cannot be saved
Many people believe the Bible says clearly and unequivocally that salvation is only possible for those people who believe in Christ as Savior and Son of God. To the objection that this seems "mean-spirited" of God, they point out that all men stand condemned because of their own sin, and God does not "owe" salvation to anyone. He has graciously offered atonement for sin to those who put their faith in Christ.

John 3:16-18 is probably the strongest statement in the Bible that salvation is possible only by faith in Christ as the Son of God:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. (NIV, John 3:16-18)

The apostle Paul stated a similar position, though not worded quite as strongly:

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (NIV, Romans 3:21-25)

There are many other Bible verses, especially in John, that imply that faith in Christ is a condition of salvation (John 5:24, John 6:28-29, John 6:47, John 9:35, John 11:25-26, John 12:36, John 20:31, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:26).

The "yes" position: non-Christians can be saved
Critics of the "no" position point out that the New Testament books were originally written and used as statements of faith and reference material within the early Christian communities. This is especially true of the Letters of Paul, which were written to specific churches he had founded, usually to address some specific issue of doctrine or conduct that had arisen. Within these churches, those who didn't believe in Christ would be those who had heard and understood the Gospel but willfully rejected it. Thus, the condemnation of non-believers may be intended for those people rather than for ones who had not heard the Gospel. There is some support for this position even in John. In the story of Jesus healing a blind man (John 9:1-41), Jesus condemns the Pharisees not for their lack of faith (symbolized by blindness), but because they have heard the truth and still refuse to believe (they claim they can see). In that context he says,

Then Jesus told him, "I have come to judge the world. I have come to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind." The Pharisees who were standing there heard him and asked, "Are you saying we are blind?" "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see. (NLT, John 9:39-41)

Paul, too, writes that those who have not heard the Gospel (the pagan Gentiles) may attain the equivalent, in their own hearts, by other means:

God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life. This is my message. (NLT, Romans 2:12-16)

Another criticism of the "no" position is that the idea of faith in Christ as a condition of salvation is not strongly present in the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke), if at all. The overall thrust of the synoptic gospels is that salvation is available to all those who make love for God and love for their fellow men the guiding forces in their lives. This is best summed up by Jesus' response to the expert in religious law:

One day an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus by asking him this question: "Teacher, what must I do to receive eternal life?" Jesus replied, "What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?" The man answered, " 'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.' And, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' " "Right!" Jesus told him. "Do this and you will live!" (NLT, Luke 10:25-28)

A similar thought is expressed in 1 John:

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. (NIV, 1 John 4:7-12)

There are a number of other verses in the Bible that suggest that God will judge different people by different standards, and salvation is more generally available than just to those with faith in Christ as Son of God (Matthew 5:43-46, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 12:47-48, Luke 18:26-27, John 1:29-30, John 5:25-29, John 12:28-32, Romans 14:10-12, 1 Timothy 4:10, Revelation 20:11-15).

In the past, some Christian churches taught that all non-Christians were condemned, and even Christians of other denominations were likely condemned. However, world travel and instant communication have brought people of different religions closer together and have forced a reevaluation of old beliefs that other religions were invalid, obsolete, or even the work of the devil. If we take John 3:16-18 as the sole criterion for salvation, then all non-Christians, children who die young, and the mentally disabled will be automatically condemned to hell. Many people find that inconsistent with the New Testament's portrayal of God as a loving Father. In addition, it seems inconsistent with the Bible's portrayal of God as all-powerful to believe He is somehow unable to save anyone He finds worthy, regardless of religious affiliation.

Dutch theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560 - 1609) believed it is God's desire to save all people if they do not reject the salvation offered by Christ. God has bestowed sufficient grace on even those who have not heard the Gospel for them to implicitly accept that salvation. Those who know the Gospel have greater advantages and responsibilities; their salvation is conditional on repentance and faith in Christ.

Today, the majority of Christian churches adhere to some variation of the Arminian view of salvation.
~http://www.twopaths.com/faq_salvation.htm#VIIIB

As in many other cases, this dilema is open for interpretation of the reader. It all really goes down to your personal belief. You rather choose to belive in the God of Fear or the God of Love, you follow the Old Testament closely or the New one.

What evidence do you have to back up this claim? That is certainly not the message I got from reading the Bible.

That's your interpretation then.

Your version of Christianity does not make up Christianity as a whole.

Of course it doesn't, we are all individuals and we percieve rules differently. Some follow them strictly, even when they're stupid, others choose to use them as guidelines, not original truths. I'm just the latter.

You call the Bible fictional and apparently disagree with what the majority of Christians think.

Who is that majority? Who is the minority? I don't percieve religion that way. Your belief is your buisness, it's not a matter for statistics, it's a matter of the heart and mind. The Bible needs to be revised - it cannot be conscidered a concrete source of information and law - it's circa 2000 years old. Obviously it went obselete, and obviously it needs revisions. Times change, and so should religion. Lack of evolution means regression.

In what way do you consider yourself to be a Christian?

I simply believe in Jesus Christ the messiah, his father and the Holy Spirit and I do my best not to break obvious moral rules. That's the extent, more or less.

cwstjdenobs · Jul 11, 2011

Way to prove yourself wrong man.

3. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST
AND YOU HAVE HEARD THE GOSPEL AND UNDERSTAND IT
(but you reject it nevertheless)
THEN YOU GO TO HELL

But I'd say I didn't reject it so much as couldn't (notice, not a choice) believe. And almost every Atheist and people of none Christian faiths falls into this category.

Foxi4 · Jul 11, 2011

[quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3768737' date='Jul 11 2011, 06:34 PM']Way to prove yourself wrong man.

3. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST
AND YOU HAVE HEARD THE GOSPEL AND UNDERSTAND IT
(but you reject it nevertheless)
THEN YOU GO TO HELL

But I'd say I didn't reject it so much as couldn't (notice, not a choice) believe. And almost every Atheist and people of none Christian faiths falls into this category.
[/quote]

. . . unless Jesus decides to take mercy on you, which He as Judge,
is allowed to do.

IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST
AND YOU HAVE NOT HEARD THE GOSPEL OR DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT
THEN YOU ARE JUDGED BY THE NATURAL LAW

At the end of the day, Jesus shall be the judge of your life. Simply being a decent human being will suffice, I didn't prove myself wrong in the slightest. Unless you *reject moral life*, you're in the clear.

Need I remind you about the story of Jesus's crucifiction? One of the co-victims did not know the gospel, nor was he a Christian, however in his final days he chose to reject his past life and admitted his sins, and that sufficed for his entry to heaven.

cwstjdenobs · Jul 11, 2011

[quote name='Foxi4' post='3768743' date='Jul 11 2011, 05:36 PM']. . . unless Jesus decides to take mercy on you, which He as Judge,
is allowed to do.[/quote]

Sorry I wasn't quote mining, I just left that out as all it's saying is that Jesus can choose to go against those rules in special cases.

IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST
AND YOU HAVE NOT HEARD THE GOSPEL OR DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT
THEN YOU ARE JUDGED BY THE NATURAL LAW

Click to expand...

At the end of the day, Jesus shall be the judge of your life. Simply being a decent human being will suffice, I didn't prove myself wrong in the slightest. Unless you *reject moral life*, you're in the clear.

So sorry, are you saying the only way you can't believe is by not understanding the Bible? Because that's what you bolding that part seems to imply. I know for a fact I know the Bible and it's history better than the vast majority of Christians out there.

Foxi4 · Jul 11, 2011

What I meant by that is that if you find yourself unable to "read between the lines" of the Bible and draw conclusions, which are usually simple rules of morality which you're probably already following then you shall be judged via means of the Natural Law. I didn't mean to call you an idiot, obviously. It's just that this source text is worded crudely and I didn't want to edit it.

I much prefere the longer refference link, it shows the duality of interpretation more clearly, but it's a bit tl:dr.

cwstjdenobs · Jul 11, 2011

Ahh, so it's pretty much the CS Lewis argument then that if you're a good person, no matter who you think you are worshipping or even if you don't think you are at all you are basically accepting Christ? Or are you saying that "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." is also a false doctrine?

Foxi4 · Jul 11, 2011

I like arguing with you, you're really nit-picky. Seeing that Jesus shall judge you, you're still entering God's domain "by him", aren't you?

And no, it's not the CS Lewis argument. That's retarded thinking. It's the "be a genuienly good person and you'll go to heaven, petty human nomenclature like "Christian", "Muslim" or "Atheist" means jack in the eyes of God" argument.

ManFranceGermany · Jul 11, 2011

[quote name='Pyrmon' post='3768642' date='Jul 11 2011, 05:48 PM'][quote name='ManFranceGermany' post='3768584' date='Jul 11 2011, 11:15 AM'][quote name='PyroSpark' post='3767068' date='Jul 10 2011, 08:11 PM']I've looked into this before, but it seems that whenever I get close to believing, something comes up and makes me say "wait, what?" and puts me back to square one.So, is it possible to be a Christian if you're a logical thinker AND have not been raised with religion?[/quote]

Lets face it, Religions are for morons. Thats the case for all Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam). At least the Buddhists and Hindus doesn't have this arrogance you can find in all Abrahamic religions.

Did you ever read the Quran? Its not any better!
And now let the hate of the muslims on Gbatemp begin "no, you're not right, Islam is the best, you just had a bad translation or misinterpreted it, Islam is so peaceful and wonderful" ... yea sure... as peaceful as Christians, which made million of crusades and killed Muslims and Jews.
And about Judaism, don't let me even begin.

The most funny part is, this strict muslims which want the sharia law(islamic law), are not any worse than strict Christians and Jews.
In Israel strict Jews, don't even want to sit beside women ina bus! can u imagine that shit? they want to have seperate buses! Same things for strict Christians.
Maybe they should talk with each other and see that they want the same idiotic shit.

This three Religions say that they did so much good to the people, really, do you believe that native Americans or older cultures didn't have a working society and they were less peaceful as us today??? do this religious people really believe this???

People might say, that at time of Judaism, later Christianity and even more later Islam, religious rules (don't kill other people, don't steal...yea, seems that we had to learn this...lol) were good. This might be true, i mean lets face it, rapes were normal, women had even less rights than what this religions finally gave them. But today they are a relict!

Ask a strict Christian, Jew, Musilm which religion is the best... do you really belive he will say, "mine is good, but the other is just fine too"?

For making a long story short, all religions are unlogic.
[/quote]
I'm Muslim and I don't really appreciate you calling me a moron. Especially since you don't have the ground to say so.
And just what do you have against my religion? You say it's violent and barbaric, yet you don't say why.
Why do you associate all Muslims with hate? Especially the ones on the temp? I don't think any Muslim temper has said or done anything to deserve that.
Extremists do not represent the majority in any religion. You cannot hold their actions against the moderate majority.
The values of my religion still hold up in the modern world. I get much wisdom from it.
Again, you talk about the extremists as if they represent all of us. You can't do that. My religion is good, but the others are just fine too. I don't think they are right, but they are fine nonetheless.
You didn't provide any real arguments to say that all religions are illogic.
[/quote]

ahh..I was waiting for you, funny that no Jew or Christian had a problem with it.
I said it about all three religions and if you couldn't see this, or you are a strict religious person, than you're really a moron.

Also, I did not say that you are barbaric, but all of this religions are. If you have such complexes and you call yourself a speaker of islam, than yes, you got a problem. Don't tell me its good what terrorists do. no matter if in name of god or not, they are terrorists.

look here, my mum is Jew, my dad Christian, my finance is Muslim and my best friend Buddhist...and we all care a shit about religions or skin colors. thats something, you will never understand, but at least it works here in my part of Europe

and now go on to hate and praise.
you're religion is the same shit as mine. sorry bro. get over it. There are much more important things in life, how you could make the planet a better palce to live, but for sure not to pray 5 times the day.

And if you really believe that Islam is better than Christianity or Judaism...well, let me just tell you, youre wrong, noone is better, all the same crap.

Foxi4 · Jul 11, 2011

ahh..I was waiting for you, funny that no Jew or Christian had a problem with it.

They chose to ignore it, including me. You picked the worst starting line ever, calling someone an idiot because his beliefs are not 100% like yours is retarded and only a close-minded moron could come up with such a concept.

I said it about all three religions and if you couldn't see this, or you are a strict religious person, than you're really a moron.

That's even worse.

Also, I did not say that you are barbaric, but all of this religions are. If you have such complexes and you call yourself a speaker of islam, than yes, you got a problem.

If you are such a huge megalomaniac that you can't take criticism, you're the one with issues.

Don't tell me its good what terrorists do.

Partially it is. America's been begging for some ass-whooping for years. I'm not suprised that the Middle East never forgave them for the parties US Troops had on their turf, depleted Uranium shells polution among one of them. I'm including only the US, but European countries did damadge during the Gulf War aswell.

no matter if in name of god or not, they are terrorists.

So are half of world's goverments.

look here, my mum is Jew, my dad Christian, my finance is Muslim and my best friend Buddhist...and we all care a shit about religions or skin colors. thats something, you will never understand, but at least it works here in my part of Europe smile.gif

I'm happy for you, but why are you ragging on someone else? Is it something you're getting off your mum, dad, fiance or friend?

and now go on to hate and praise.
you're religion is the same shit as mine. sorry bro. get over it. There are much more important things in life, how you could make the planet a better palce to live, but for sure not to pray 5 times the day.

That's no reason NOT to pray 5 times a day, those things are unrelated, you can do both.

And if you really believe that Islam is better than Christianity or Judaism...well, let me just tell you, youre wrong, noone is better

Yes.

all the same crap.

No.

cwstjdenobs · Jul 11, 2011

Again sorry, not meant to be argumentative. Just trying to get a more rounded handle on your views.

And I've got to admit that's a new interpretation for me to consider. For some reason I've only being able to see that as meaning "Only through following Christ...", especially with the "I am the way, the truth".

Foxi4 · Jul 11, 2011

[quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3768823' date='Jul 11 2011, 07:12 PM']Again sorry, not meant to be argumentative. Just trying to get a more rounded handle on your views.

And I've got to admit that's a new interpretation for me to consider. For some reason I've only being able to see that as meaning "Only through following Christ...", especially with the "I am the way, the truth".[/quote]

Hehe, it's actually NICE to have a pleasant discussion with someone who does think about it. Don't get me wrong, I am *NOT* trying to convert you or anyone else. I'm just trying to describe how "my" belief looks like.

It's like I said - Bible is not "definitive", it's made by us, humans, and should be revised here and there. The wording of some stories is a bit crude and maybe even "too" open for interpretation, but all in all, it's not that bad.

Demonstryde · Jul 11, 2011

you cant say religion is bad , how else would we get government funding to wage holy wars... religion is the sole reason for most every war in history. haha and no i have never met a person not born into a religion that ended up choosing to be a religious follower.
i was never forced to beleive that there was a god and im thankful for that, as i was able to grow my mind naturally as i got older. the universe is far too large and complex for me to think that god only put us here...with all of the trillions of galaxy's with billions of stars that have billions of planets orbiting them its hard to think that we are the only intelligent life forms... with those statistics it is also hard to think that there would be a god that can read all of the thoughts of everything...there is just too many. instead of cementing your feet to the gound and staring at your toes should be thinking of what you are doing and not what you think god wants you to do...

unfortunately you cant have a relatively sane conversation with any religious person as the second you say somthing that contradicts their reliion they put up a jesus wall or allah wall and block out anything logical you might say...

main point is... if you are going to retort to this..... dont bother if you were a person indoctrinated into your religion as it wasnt your choice but your parents, and you can thank them for that hahahahahahhaha have fun closed minded fools

Magmorph · Jul 11, 2011

I recall more than one passage about blasphemy being an unforgivable sin.

cwstjdenobs · Jul 11, 2011

[quote name='Demonstryde' post='3768843' date='Jul 11 2011, 06:21 PM']you cant say religion is bad , how else would we get government funding to wage holy wars... religion is the sole reason for most every war in history.[/quote]

I call bull. Religion has being used as excuses for wars, the same old very human factors of greed or even need for resources are behind any I can think of.

EDIT: I'd even go as far as saying at least one of the Abrahamic faiths was invented purely for this reason. But that doesn't mean the wars where actually about religion, just that it's a good motivator.

unfortunately you cant have a relatively sane conversation with any religious person as the second you say somthing that contradicts their reliion they put up a jesus wall or allah wall and block out anything logical you might say...

The same can be said for most Atheists in these sort of discussions.

And cough cough, Foxi4, Pyrmon, and lots of others I'm probably missing, are they putting up a Jesus wall or Allah Wall? They aren't trying to convert you, and not agreeing with you and thus converting over to your view doesn't mean they instantly dismiss any point that doesn't agree with them.

nugundam0079 · Jul 11, 2011

Why in the world would you ask this sorta thing on an internet board? this is something that YOU yourself has to really look into all you're doing here is starting an argument.

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