US congressional leaders have reached agreement on COVID stimulus bill (UPDATE: signed into law)

[D34DL1N3R]

It needs a drastic change or just totally tore down and reassembled "for the people" like it was originally intended.

It is "for the people" because they are all elected by the people. If people want change they need to start voting these old timers out. But they don't. What is your master plan for reassembly since voting seems to not work out for you?

 

[Deleted User]

One thing History has shown us is that anarchy never works as intended.

Having lived in countries where political uprisings took place, when they actually happened, the only thing it changes is which corrupt circle holds power. The downside is that the older corruption is usually already better-fed and full, so they have calmed down; new corruption on the back of revolution is practically starving and will eat away more from an already-dysfunctional state of affairs.

Our ancestors weren't kidding when they coined the adage, "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't."

So if you actually want change, work from within the system; it isn't as flashy as pointing fingers from the outside and blaming people and won't win you Social Media Cookie Points, but it's the most effective way to see results. As always, Politics is about finding common ground, so no one side's policy will ever fully win; that's just the asinine rhetoric they sell emos to get them triggered into anarchy.

 

[Deleted User]

So if you actually want change, work from within the system;

Well... let me riddle bullet holes into that.
If the current system is so broken, then how are you supposed to work within it?
Take climate change, for example. It's been widely agree on shit needs to get done. I think most with in my generation, and the ones before me would agree that climate change needs to be dealt with, ASAP. But the government, the current system. does not care. Biden might help, but we need deep changes NOW. We don't have another 8 years to waste.
If it was also the case, that it can be worked within. why hasn't a solution came up yet?
At this point there has been consensus that both parties are shit. Both are out to line their pockets.
So why hasn't that been solved?
A lot of people argue that the system is broken to a point that it has to be redone from the ground up.


Further more lobbying exists, why hasn't that been dealt with?
I think both sides of the isle can agree that it shouldn't be legal. As long as that also continues to exist, where cooperation change the law by shilling a fuck ton of money to go speak for them, the general public, in any capacity , quickly begins to not matter

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Also healthcare, which I know is contentious in the states. But it really shouldn't be, every single country does not let healthcare be privatized. What about worker unions? The government body that's supposed to protect them had their budget slashed. While the body that is supposed to crack down on them was increased. Essentially disproportionately winging things into company favor

 

[Deleted User]

Well... let me riddle bullet holes into that.
If the current system is so broken, then how are you supposed to work within it?

The same way we deal with life.

You don't kill yourself just because you have a bad start in life, you work at it to get better.
Backseat Politics and The Internet will always have something to say; there are 7 Billion people on this planet with 7 Billion opinions.

There are always good, honest, hard-working Politicians behind the scenes in every side, which in this current climate are called the Adults in the Room.

Resetting everything will get you the exact outcome, because Politics isn't as simple as finding new people; Politicians and Diplomats take years to hone their skills, especially in inter-cultural Diplomacy. The only place a one-trick pony works is for local consumption, and even then they're riding on the back of Career Politicians.

If you take away the existing body of work and diplomacy you will have to renew them and that takes time, alongside a shift in Bargaining Power. Those things are often discounted when people stand on their anarchistic soapbox, because they do well when you're less informed of Politics as an Art form and Science.

 

[Deleted User]

You don't kill yourself just because you have a bad start in life, you work at it to get better.

So if complete network of broken gears exist, you keep trying to spin the gear? knowing it's broken as it continuously slips?
I've alluded to it in a thread a made a while ago.
The capitalistic economic system is broken. Or more accurately broken towards the people. it's inherit nature is to exploit, for nothing but profit.
You cannot fix that.



I am still be in large favor for a democracy, but the economic system we have, is inherently conflicting with democratic values.
I'll go as far as saying that, capitalism needs to go.



To be clear, capitalism is better than feudalism, however as we replaced feudalism, we now need a system to replace capitalism. It had a role it did it's job, but it does not suite our needs right now.

 

[Deleted User]

You cannot fix that.

Actually, History shows you can but it may not be in the time-frame you want.
Many philosophers have contemplated the Human Condition, since Time Immemorial and your take is as old as their opinions based off it.

Change has to come in at a gradual pace and it has to be grassroots, not from war nor anarchy.
What you get from those two alternatives is a different system altogether, and something that cannot be predicted.

If that is the goal then so be it; they have changed History multiple times.
But one thing is for sure, if anyone is promoting anarchy for the sake of the people then they are delusional, more so with our advanced technologies in warfare.

Anarchy benefits the local powerful and foreign vested interests.

There is a traditional saying in Asia, "Elephants fight, ants get trampled."
That is ancient wisdom.

 

[Deleted User]

Actually, History shows you can but it may not be in the time-frame you want.

Dude, you can't fix a thing that's inherit to a system.
That is capitalism's main goal, profits.
This can be substantiated from the fact companies prioritize stock holders over the consumers. Or the fact that our government has prioritized businesses over people.Or, a topic that hits closer to me. Companies like EA and others, hiring people to research and exploit people's psychology to buy lootboxes

Anarchy benefits the local powerful and foreign vested interests.

Democracy is not anarchy.
If you don't know the difference between a economic system and a government system then you don't know what your talking about.
Capitalism referes to economics. I am vouching for that to be replaced.
I am not vouching for democracy to go in place of anarchy. anarchy only creates a power vacuum.

 

[Deleted User]

Dude, you can't fix a thing that's inherit to a system.

I doubt you have enough experience nor competency to talk on this subject.

You can fix a broken system by augmentation, or is that an alien concept to you.
If so then my first sentence here is why.

Dissolving any Government by an uprising is an anarchical state of affairs.
If you can't distinguish between political systems and the lack thereof then, again, sentence number one is your answer.

To get what you want out of a Government is to augment broken policies; they, in turn, will transition with time.

 

[Deleted User]

Actually, History shows you can but it may not be in the time-frame you want.

further more, we don't have much time. I'd hate to be a doomer
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-on-climate-and-the-risk-of-societal-collapse
But I really don't like this. And Biden will not solve it to the extent it needs to be dealt with.
Why?
Because he told his investors, those that backed him. that nothing will effectively change.

You can fix a broken system by augmentation, or is that an alien concept to you.

Again, you can't fix something that is inherit to that system.
I'll go use a really bizarre example, but it will suffice.
The specter and meltdown exploits are inherit to those vulnerable CPU's. You cannot fix the issue, it is at hardware level. you can augment and create a bandaid with a software patch, but the issue still remains, festering.
This is what I'm getting at.
Capitalism's main goal is profit beyond all else. You cannot fix that. it's inherit to it. You can try to reel it in with government, but you cannot fix it's issues entirely.

Dissolving any Government by an uprising is an anarchical state of affairs.

However it's not total anarchy, as you were stating earlier.
Let me go back to the climate change issue then.
We've known it's a problem for multiple decades. However instead of doing something ,politicians, banked off it and had a conflict of interest versus the people.

If this issue could of been fixed, when literately there has been scientific data for decades about it. Why has it not been solved. Are you telling me people haven't been vocal enough?


voting is a replacement for a guillotine. Effectively right now people's voices, aren't getting listened to. since they have to pick between worse or worser. (which is why there is a lot of unrest) Which comes back to capitalism. You can argue
"well it's possible to get someone who has people's actual values"
and to that I say their chances of getting in there is completely fucked because again, capitalism. It also allows for the stupidly rich to solve their problems by throwing a fuck ton of money with no real effort. Any candidate that those people may of want quickly gets overshadowed, since those that would have interests for the people, are more likely to not be rich/not from the top 10%

 

[Deleted User]

I understand your angst, so I'll answer with that in mind.

Because he told his investors, those that backed him. that nothing will effectively change.

There are several ways to look at this promise as it stands, so I won't bore you with explaining what you already know.
The most effective solution is always a grassroots majority mandate, which unfortunately isn't there; but hope is not lost because the economic viability of Green alternatives is also rising, so I would recommend waiting to see where the intersection is.

Again, you can't fix something that is inherit to that system.

As I mentioned, there are many examples of augmentation, or Hybrid systems if that fits your vocabulary more; we always start with hybrids and let the grassroots decide from its benefits where the road takes the country.

A simple example is how Social policies for Welfare can fit into many self-proclaimed Capitalist countries, especially in Europe, if we're looking for Western counterparts. Conversely, Asian countries have also adopted Capitalist hybrids to their economic model; all these take into account local grassroots flavours and they are, by definition, neither here nor there and contrary to your statement.

However it's not total anarchy, as you were stating earlier.

This is more than just a Semantics issue; the moment someone enters Politics, they become a Politician.
It can be hard to understand until you become one yourself, mostly because few understand the Job Description.

It isn't about a particular Economic System per se because all Systems are political and have the conflicts of interest you're talking about.
The point is about getting the majority of the grassroots sentiment to agree with you, otherwise no policy can survive longer than a Term.

This goes back to augmentation, gradually showing the country benefits to override fears and disinformation.
In the end, being vocal has very little to do with it and will create diminishing returns as people become saturated with the Media shouting, pessimistic and desensitised to the whole affair.

It's always good to remember that you need to appeal to those for and against your idea, and the only way to do that in Politics is to go slowly, augment and show results afterwards.

 

[Deleted User]

As I mentioned, there are many examples of augmentation, or Hybrid systems if that fits your vocabulary more; we always start with hybrids and let the grassroots decide from its benefits where the road takes the country.

A simple example is how Social policies for Welfare can fit into many self-proclaimed Capitalist countries, especially in Europe, if we're looking for Western counterparts. Conversely, Asian countries have also adopted Capitalist hybrids to their economic model; all these take into account local grassroots flavours and they are, by definition, neither here nor there and contrary to your statement.

sigh
you don't get the underlying point though.
You need to elect people into the government, that will do the above yes?
If you want a economic reform within, you elect your choices.
Problem, your choices are already selected. Because the other candidates, who would hold you view
CAN NEVER BE ELECTED.
Why do you think Bernie was screwed over?
Was it because perhaps Bernie even with his more watered down view this year was still a threat to those in power?
They will always be out supported if they don't follow behind the massive corporations. Along with having those corporations help advertise against you. It's not that people wouldn't support them, it's that corporation voices are able to weigh in so much more.
Currently our system is broken.
I know you have this noble idea that it can be solved within. But it can't.
Maybe a couple decades ago. But not anymore.
America's problem is a lot more specific. At least with Europe it's not a strict two party system. And with Europe's case people's voices are heard way more often and have protections for the people (compared to the US)
US has none of that. Over time policies that would of protected have been stripped away.
Money in the United States right now speaks more than the people, and it has reached the point where the people can't fix it.

 

[weatMod]

Not sure handouts do much good as a general principle.

Though if you have got people addicted to them then that seems like a paltry sum, though if you are bracing for a shortfall then eh.

over 70% of the money is NOT going to the people
just like last time , just another bailout for you know whos over on Wall St, just like in 2008
they get trillion while we get $600... and hyperinflation

 

[DJPlace]

600 is not enough you assholes.

but still when are people getting these checks?

 

[Lacius]

McConnell blocks effort to quickly increase direct stimulus payments

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell on Tuesday blocked an effort to quickly pass a measure to increase direct stimulus payments from $600 to $2,000, though the legislation could be voted on at a later time or date if McConnell so chooses.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/29/politics/republican-senator-reject-2000-stimulus-increase/index.html

 

[Deleted User]

I was going to leave this, but then I realised if I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't reply; what you do with your political angst is on you, but how I explain or leave things unexplained is on me. I just hope you don't get yourself hurt in the future.

Problem, your choices are already selected. Because the other candidates, who would hold you view CAN NEVER BE ELECTED.

This is Democracy, in a nutshell and you're not the first to feel that it's not going as you'd hoped; Socrates himself was executed by a democratic vote, so what can I tell you.

You complain about how the people you want voted are not; that's basically a minority wanting majority power. This will never happen and if you feel you deserve that right, then as a minority your train of thought and subsequent actions are in violation of the Democracy you hold dear.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that you get your way and your minority voice grabs power; the only way that happens is outside of Democracy and obviously through Anarchy. In the subsequent power struggle, the chances of your minority maintaining power are slim to none; the Military will always win.

Your little exercise in futility will have cost the innocent lives of many, most likely including your family and loved ones.

Currently our system is broken.

The saddest part is that you don't realise this is not from a broken system but from the country's Democracy. People voted for these Politicians; this should tell you that you don't even understand the people living in the same country as you.

You definitely don't understand immigrants from Socialist countries, their backstory and distrust of anything labelled Socialism.

Long story short, get the majority to think like you and you'll have your change. It's not going to be a quick turnaround and it might even last your whole lifetime; but if you believe your cause is righteous then it's a lifetime well-spent creating a better future for your countrymen.

Who knows, the next time we chat you might become a Politician yourself.

 

[danver]

Wow y'all must love to argue over politics huh. This is why i have stopped watching the news all together. The reason being is because all people want to do is put there two cents in. Then proceed to argue who's right to me that is just damn pointless. Sure we can be angry about whats going on, and whats not being done right, or what we think is right. The fact of the matter is we are not in congress we are not in any position to tell the senate what the hell to do, or better yet president elect Biden, or president Trump.

 

[wartutor]

Wow y'all must love to argue over politics huh. This is why i have stopped watching the news all together. The reason being is because all people want to do is put there two cents in. Then proceed to argue who's right to me that is just damn pointless. Sure we can be angry about whats going on, and whats not being done right, or what we think is right. The fact of the matter is we are not in congress we are not in any position to tell the senate what the hell to do, or better yet president elect Biden, or president Trump.

The answer isnt to just ignore the outside world and live in your own little bubble. It is natural to argue points back and forth between one another or nothing would of ever got accomplished or will ever get changed. With your mindset u may as well lay in a ditch and just wait for death.

 

[The Catboy]

McConnell blocks effort to quickly increase direct stimulus payments

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell on Tuesday blocked an effort to quickly pass a measure to increase direct stimulus payments from $600 to $2,000, though the legislation could be voted on at a later time or date if McConnell so chooses.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/29/politics/republican-senator-reject-2000-stimulus-increase/index.html

I really hate that this turtle has so much power and Kentucky continues to vote for him. Mitch is literally one of the biggest contributors to the Covid mess we’ve found ourselves in thanks to him constantly blocking every bill and being impossible to work with. Admittedly, both sides have been trying to use Covid as a means of injecting bullshit into bills, but Mitch has just been the worst. Instead of doing anything good, he’s just been doing everything possible to stall and block any efforts to making things better. Seriously, how does he still have supporters?

 

[danver]

Well like i always say in life there are people who are good. Then there are people who are just shit, but i try to show that chivalry is not dead. By helping those that need help, and hoping it gets passed on.

 

[Deleted User]

You complain about how the people you want voted are not; that's basically a minority wanting majority power.

Oh I didn't know it was a minority a to not want the top 1% corporation rule to rule the 90%
It's not my personal views.
If I pull myself out from my own politics, outside looking in.
The Republican party doesn't match up those who vote for them.
Same with the democratic party.
The one clear uniting issue.
Is corporation, over people
There's a massive dissonance occurring. People only vote for them, because that's the only option they've been provided. A pick between of lesser of evils. Nothing truly aligning with what they want.
They are giving up voting for their conscious since they feel that voting third party is a waste of a vote.
Again, capitalism controlling essentially who you get to elect.
If they were to find a candidate they want, it would be out campaigned for the status quo, by those who want to keep it. Aka the rich.

You definitely don't understand immigrants from Socialist countries, their backstory and distrust of anything labelled Socialism.

And I bet you don't know anything about those who would wish the USSR was back.
I'd imagine the reason of that distrust in anything socialism comes back to multiple issues
Primarily the red scare. Which in the United States heavily lobbied against anything socialist to essentially flex and show that capitalism is better.
No, really, that's the entire reason. (also not to forget to mention the reason why we went to war with Vietnam was because they became communist.)
combined with countries naming themselves socialist or communist while not actually being (cough cough china. China is more closer to capitalist than actual socialist or communist in the modern day. Even though the main controlling party has Communism in the name)
I hope your not confusing your economic systems and social scale systems. Since if your thinking socialism is inherently authoritarian or same for communism. Congrats, you fell for the red scare propaganda.
You can have a country that is democratic and also socialist/communist. You can have authoritarian capitalism. (china)
I say that now since, well, due to the red scare, essentially, it's created a situation that conflates economic and social scale systems, that has been deeply rooted/impacted American politics and culture.

he saddest part is that you don't realise this is not from a broken system but from the country's Democracy.

It is broken systems.
Capitalism has a incentive, that incentive is money over people.
Nothing more nothing less. As long as that incentive remains, corruption will too.
Democracy doesn't live in a vacuum. it Lives with the system along side it. If the system along side it allows and enables corruption, so too will it, even in the most perfect images of a democratic system.

Long story short, get the majority to think like you and you'll have your change.

The majority of people already agree with my sentiment that the current system we have. Is not working.
We may come to different reasons as to why it's not working. We may come to different solutions to fix it.
However we all know at this point it's blatantly, not working, it is favoring the rich, there is no equality in that. And as a result, people's voices are going unheard.
I may not have agreement with the people on the other side of the isle about what do to do. But we both agree it's a serious issue. from what I can tell.

Who knows, the next time we chat you might become a Politician yourself.

Most politicians are rich, own a profitable business or is capable of investing in stocks along with knowledge likely the public won't know.
I consider that highly unlikely, I would be out lobbied. Unless I drank the poison that would be accepting donor money and having to give up my values in order to keep competing.