Hardware Scanlines on N3DS XL

[Koldur]

Thanks for your very extensive tests on this! When you wrote that you found a n3DS that didn't have scan lines I was about to tell you that that was impossible as scan lines are inherent to the display technology. But I didn't account for the fact that Nintendo could have used two different type of displays in one type of 3DS.....

After seeing the results of your tests, I am happy I have the scan line version since it seems to have a way better display. The other one has a terrible viewing angle.

 

[Kohmei]

Thanks for your very extensive tests on this! When you wrote that you found a n3DS that didn't have scan lines I was about to tell you that that was impossible as scan lines are inherent to the display technology. But I didn't account for the fact that Nintendo could have used two different type of displays in one type of 3DS.....

After seeing the results of your tests, I am happy I have the scan line version since it seems to have a way better display. The other one has a terrible viewing angle.

I settled on type A too. Kind of ironic considering how much time I invested trying to find something else, but it was worth it to realize it's the best possible option

 

[Koldur]

I settled on type A too. Kind of ironic considering how much time I invested trying to find something else, but it was worth it to realize it's the best possible option

Ahhh well, at least you now know what you can choose and why! Pretty important if you are picky (like I am) with your consoles. So I still think it is time well spent.

 

[Syphos]

I think I have the Type A n3DS.

But does this problem (probably) only apply to the XL versions?

 

[Kohmei]

I think I have the Type A n3DS.

But does this problem (probably) only apply to the XL versions?

It's hard for me to say since I haven't seen the standard size and they don't sell them here. Since the screens are a different size it's completely possible they were designed to different specifications, different even from the two types I've identified

 

[n3dsxltemp]

Hey Kohmei, do you have an account at NeoGAF?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1009798&page=2


I registered to chime in and say that the bottom screen on the left side has "bleeding".
You can see where the LEDs are placed from the bleed.

Saw it on the 2 units I had, and also there's a picture of it here:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=155864959&postcount=135

You can see the intense light fade then intensify again 3 times in that picture. (It does that the entire length.)



As far as I'm concerned, the "TYPE A" panel is the bad one because I can easily see the scan line distortion when I play New Leaf with its rolling log overworld.

Edit:
Last hope is if NoA releases the regular sized N3DS...
and it's not like countries that got the hardware months before NA even mentioned the N3DSXL issues.

 

[Kohmei]

Vertical scrolling is definitely an eye sore. I really wish there was some kind of happy medium. The DS lite was so nice because you could just adjust the trimmers to get the perfect screen if you had the scanline effect. I wonder if there's a hardware mod you could do on the N3DS that would offer you a similar option, or if it would do anything to fix it at all, I don't know. Very frustrating, but for the time being, it still beats the OG3DS, for me at least.

Edit:

Not a NeoGAF member. Seems some people in one of those threads are doing exactly what I was afraid of: confusing the gap between rows of pixels with the flickering of them. I think most people here at least understand what I'm complaining about

 

[Syphos]

It's hard for me to say since I haven't seen the standard size and they don't sell them here. Since the screens are a different size it's completely possible they were designed to different specifications, different even from the two types I've identified

Wait.. what? The regular N3 isn't sold in the US?

I wonder whats the difference in the used screens.
Did Nintendo have to use a different manufacturer for them?
Or did they have to use screens they sorted out just to meet the production deadline?

 

[Kohmei]

Wait.. what? The regular N3 isn't sold in the US?

I wonder whats the difference in the used screens.
Did Nintendo have to use a different manufacturer for them?
Or did they have to use screens they sorted out just to meet the production deadline?

According to the NeoGAF thread posted above, the issue is that Nintendo is using both IPS and TN type panels. Type A is IPS and type B is TN. Apparently the working theory is that only the XL comes with IPS, so if you think you have an IPS in your normal sized N3DS, this would mean there is a panel lottery for both sizes.

Nintendo definitely outsources panel production. Very few parts in Nintendo's hardware is actually made by Nintendo. Nintendo just puts all the pieces together.

Edit: Seems Sharp has made the upper panels for Nintendo up until now. They might have changed manufacturers, or simply changed spec

 

[Just3DS]

Just for info, when I moved from my old EUR 3DS XL to EUR N3DS XL I immediately noticed that the bottom screen display and viewing angles are exactly the same, whereas the upper screen is definitely an improvement on N3DSL XL with no washing out to white when viewing angle shifts to top (north) which my old 3DS has it. Same issue is present with top screen in regular JPN N3DS I have. Also, the old 3DS XL has bit cool colour temperature for both top and bottom screens while N3DS XL colour temperature seems neutral and perfect for both top and bottom screens. Comparing it OP's information I can conclude that mine N3DS XL has Type A (IPS kinda) top screen display, (and I think they kept using same bottom screen for their 3DS XL line so far). I haven't noticed the scanline effect you talking about on N3DS screens, although I know that there is horizontal black lines kinda thing present on top screen of old 3DS XL when I turn off 3D slider as it doesn't has a second image to display anymore.

 

[Hammyface]

I just wanted to chime in with the OP's findings and add some helpful information.

The actual technical term for what you are seeing is called "mutliplexing". Hopefully this helps you dig deeper into this.

Anyway, I've returned 3 new3DS's so far, and all 3 of them had it. Some were worse than others. On the one that was "least bad", you'd only see the "scanlines" on the top and sides of the upper screen. You couldn't really see them in the middle of the screen. But they all had it. I honestly might just keep exchanging them until I get a good one. I remember this exact same issue since the GBA. The DSi was really bad; I had to return 7 of them until I got one without the issue.

It's super annoying because you see it whenever you move the console slightly. The entire screen fills up with these faint lines. It's probably something the average person doesn't notice, but to me it's as bad, if not worse, than a stuck pixel.

For those that are asking, it is most noticeable on the top screen when in the home menu and it dims to give you a notification. Move the system up and down slightly (or dart your eyes up and down) and you should see these ugly, rolling "scanlines". This is because Nintendo has been using crummy low-quality screens for over a decade. I'm not hating on Nintendo; I love them. But they really scrape the bottom of the barrel with their handheld LCD screens.

Unfortunately I am not sure there is a fix for the new3DS. I've looked at hi-res photos of the motherboard and I didn't see any potentiometers. With the GBA, DSLite, DSi, etc you were able to adjust a small pot to feed the exact voltage to the screens. The 3DS (and new3DS) for some reason got rid of this. If there's a potentiometer on the new3DS, I sure as hell haven't found it.

But anyway in short, the OP is absolutely correct, the issue is called "multiplexing", and it's only an issue in the most cheaply-made LCD screens. There appears to be no fix except to exchange them until you get a good one; unless someone out there has found some hidden potentiometer for the new3ds.

 

[Kohmei]

But anyway in short, the OP is absolutely correct, the issue is called "multiplexing", and it's only an issue in the most cheaply-made LCD screens. There appears to be no fix except to exchange them until you get a good one; unless someone out there has found some hidden potentiometer for the new3ds.

I actually fully disassembled one of them looking for exactly that. I adjusted my DSlite using the ones right next to the battery so I know what you're talking about. While I'm not incredibly knowledgable about hardware, I certainly didn't see anything like it that indicated it was adjustable.

And that's kind of what I'm wondering now: Would a theoretical mod be possible if you were to intercept the voltage to the screens and add your own potentiometer? I imagine such a mod would be incredibly difficult if it's even possible, but maybe someone with some electrical background might be able to imagine a solution

As far as I can tell, all of the IPS panels are affected and none of the TN panels are affected. I've noticed some variation in the IPS but given the quantity I've tried out, I'm reluctant to believe there exists an IPS panel without the problem to some extent

 

[Hammyface]

I actually fully disassembled one of them looking for exactly that. I adjusted my DSlite using the ones right next to the battery so I know what you're talking about. While I'm not incredibly knowledgable about hardware, I certainly didn't see anything like it that indicated it was adjustable.

And that's kind of what I'm wondering now: Would a theoretical mod be possible if you were to intercept the voltage to the screens and add your own potentiometer? I imagine such a mod would be incredibly difficult if it's even possible, but maybe someone with some electrical background might be able to imagine a solution

As far as I can tell, all of the IPS panels are affected and none of the TN panels are affected. I've noticed some variation in the IPS but given the quantity I've tried out, I'm reluctant to believe there exists an IPS panel without the problem to some extent

Yeah the GBA had the adjustment behind the back label (remember back in 2001-02 when everyone thought this was adjusting brightness?) and the DSi and DSiXL had it behind the battery cover; two different potentiometers for the two different screens.

Why the new3DS doesn't have the adjuster when clearly they are using the same multiplexing-type screens is beyond me. My guess is there is one somewhere but it's not adjustable by using a screwdriver. Maybe a value set by a SMD resistor? Or maybe it's even set in software or programming?

While someone figuring it out or some mod would be awesome, I doubt enough people notice it to be bothered by it. This thread was the only thing I could find regarding complaints, and it seems like the only people here who notice it (myself included) are the types who notice things like motion blur, rainbowing on certain projectors, etc.

What's funny is I noticed my top new3DS screen has a yellow tint to it but it doesn't bother me much. The "scanline effect" (multiplexing) on the other hand is driving me nuts. I think the only way to "fix"it is by continuously returning them until you find one that was calibrated properly "by accident".

I wonder if Target is going to ban me from returning for repeated returns? I know Best Buy does that. I know it's a bid obsessive but it actually makes me unable to enjoy my new3DS.

A small sidenote which I think is kind of interesting but I had two 3DS XLs (not the new one) and the original 3DS and neither had this issue, which is weird, because every other Nintendo handheld since the GBA (maybe even the GBC, I don't remember) has had this issue. Maybe I just got lucky with my original 3DS systems? But the problem is there on all of the new3DS's, clear as day.

Another easy way to spot it is in Super Mario Bros 2 (either from the E-Shop or the SNES emulator on the DStwo running Super Mario All Stars then SMB2US), go through the first door in the first stage and I notice it very easily on the blue sky. If you gently move the console you'll see the multiplexing lines everywhere. The top screen is not getting the proper voltage for some reason.

Even stranger is I have not yet seen this take place on the bottom screen on any of the new3DS systems. My guess is Nintendo is feeding identical voltage to both the top and bottom screens, even though they probably require slightly different voltage (the bottom screen has a digitizer, and the top screen is larger and IPS). I don't think the top screen being IPS has anything to do with it since every other Nintendo handheld exhibited this issue for me as well (besides the old3DS but maybe that was just luck).

I definitely know this is something that can be solved by multiple returns and looking for one that's perfect because on all 3 new3DS systems I had, the problem was way less noticeable on one than the other two.

One weird sidenote as well is that my DSiXL had the same issue, and I was able to fix it with a minor pot adjustment, however it keeps coming back after a few days. Really weird. I even used hot glue on the potentiometer so I can definitely rule out that it was moving on its own or something.

Nintendo's quality control as of late has been really horrendous. Remember the original 3DS scratching the top screen when you closed it? And 3DS XL systems with dust under the screen right out of the box? The volume slider on one of the new3DS's that I got is about 20 times harder to push up and down when compared to the 3D slider. The other two didn't have that problem. Factory workers tightening the screws too hard? No idea.

I hope there's a fix for this, but if not, I will keep seeking out a perfect unit. Now I'm just worried about what the OP said about some of the systems having a worse "head tracking" capability than others!

 

[Kohmei]

Well there are TN panels in the N3DS XL line that don't have the problem, so if you can't live with this, then you should be able to find one. They are a bit rarer, but not impossible to find.

I've went through nearly 30 units if I factor in store demos and all of the IPS ones had it. If a mythical perfect unit out there exists, well, I wish you good luck. It will probably be exceedingly difficult to find. Especially if some of your theories are true about using the same voltage for both top and bottom screens, it sounds like it simply might not exist. From what I read, IPS panels use 15% more power than TN all other things being equal, so it might very well be the case that Nintendo is using the panels interchangeably when really they shouldn't be.

I ultimately decided on the IPS because the TN has its own set of problems which bothered me more than the multiplexing.

One more thought: I've noticed variation too, and I think it has to do with how full the battery is. Even in the same unit, the effect seems more pronounced with a fully charged battery. After about 20 minutes it seems to diminish a good deal, so this might explain the variation that we're seeing, or why your DSi came back in a few days, simply because it's impossible to maintain all the variables due to reasons that don't even include the quality of the screen. Just a theory. It could also just be my eyes or brain trying to ignore it

 

[Hammyface]

I did notice a variation too. I noticed it's extremely noticeable right after you open the console from sleep mode. It will be like this for a minute or two. It will get a little bit better, but will still be there, though. The top screen definitely isn't getting the correct voltage.

Here is a video of the issue:

 

[Kohmei]

here is a video of the issue:

It's hard for even me to see in the video

 

[Hammyface]

It's hard for even me to see in the video

Cameras are really bad at capturing stuff like this. Maybe if you raise it to 720p or higher. But yeah...eyes see very differently than camera lenses

 

[foob]

i own a ps vita OLED 1000, all screens have issues compared to that beauty.

OLED screens have longevity issues (to this day) and for some people they are too saturated to be natural. Sony made the right decision going back to the regular LCD from a longevity standpoint but its probably a moot point since the battery is so hard to remove & that will be an issue sooner.

 

[Hammyface]

I agree with mech that the Vita screen (the original OLED 1000 model) has the nicest screen I have ever seen. The images look painted on. And I am no fan of the Vita.

Kohmei, here is a weird experiment. Go into the system settings, and then Super-Stable 3D, then manual setup. Hit next, and adjust whatever number is there to -1.0. See if the scanlines change at all. Also try +1.0. Might be a placebo thing but it seems like it helped a bit on my system.

 

[Kohmei]

I've tried messing around with that and it only seems to add ghosting. Not to mention I can see the multiplexing just fine in 2D as well, so I'd think it's unrelated to 3D

Edit: this isn't related to the above, but I've started noticing strange vertical lines particularly when tilting the console to the left or right. Not that I'd ordinarily do this while playing, but I've been screwing around with the gyroscope controls in some games. I don't suppose this is also related to multiplexing or is it something else? Has anyone else noticed it?