[PPOTW] What is the best video game genre?

[PPOTW] What is the best video game genre?

  • Action/Adventure

    Votes: 127 24.3%
  • Beat Em Up

    Votes: 10 1.9%
  • Fighter

    Votes: 9 1.7%
  • First Person Shooter

    Votes: 18 3.4%
  • JRPG

    Votes: 169 32.4%
  • MMO

    Votes: 12 2.3%
  • Platform

    Votes: 57 10.9%
  • Puzzle

    Votes: 12 2.3%
  • RTS

    Votes: 8 1.5%
  • Sandbox

    Votes: 15 2.9%
  • Simulation - Flying/Racing/Sports/Life etc.

    Votes: 11 2.1%
  • Survival Horror

    Votes: 17 3.3%
  • Third Person Shooter

    Votes: 4 0.8%
  • WRPG

    Votes: 19 3.6%
  • Other (please specify)

    Votes: 34 6.5%

  • Total voters
    522

YayMii

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Kinda disappointed how the genre that has taken the most of my time (Rhythm games) isn't on the list :unsure:
And the objective thread title poses as a problem too. I guess I'm out then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Posting calculators with powerful specs is completely evading the question. There are no big-name JRPGs that have ever been released on a calculator, and there never will be. Unless you have access to a calculator app that completely and fully replicates the experience of a game like Ni no Kuni, your argument is completely invalid.
 

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Kinda disappointed how the genre that has taken the most of my time (Rhythm games) isn't on the list :unsure:
And the objective thread title poses as a problem too. I guess I'm out then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Posting calculators with powerful specs is completely evading the question. There are no big-name JRPGs that have ever been released on a calculator, and there never will be. Unless you have access to a calculator app that completely and fully replicates the experience of a game like Ni no Kuni, your argument is completely invalid.

I'm not saying it has been replicated. I'm saying that it's *possible* to replicated it. As in, most JRPG have very mathematical gameplay, the turn-based ones especially. Even the ones which aren't turn-based tend to be restrictive and linear. I'm proposing that such a game can be ran on the rather weak hardware of a calculator.
 

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I'm not saying it has been replicated. I'm saying that it's *possible* to replicated it. As in, most JRPG have very mathematical gameplay, the turn-based ones especially. Even the ones which aren't turn-based tend to be restrictive and linear. I'm proposing that such a game can be ran on the rather weak hardware of a calculator.
The problem is, your proposal claims that JRPGs are only mathematical gameplay. There's a lot more to them than just battles, and to fit a full world from a modern game into a calculator is simply not possible.

Hell, since we're talking about Ni no Kuni, you wouldn't even be able to fit the game's companion book into the calculator. The DS version of the game came with a physical 343-page hardcover book because the 512-megabyte cartridges they used weren't big enough to fit all of its information (meanwhile, the digital copy of the book can be found in the PS3 version's files, and it alone is 400+ MB).
 

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I'm not saying it has been replicated. I'm saying that it's *possible* to replicated it. As in, most JRPG have very mathematical gameplay, the turn-based ones especially. Even the ones which aren't turn-based tend to be restrictive and linear. I'm proposing that such a game can be ran on the rather weak hardware of a calculator.

just like a first person shooter CAN be replicated on a calculator. Hell, I played Wolfenstein 3D on my TI-83 back in high school. Oh, and platformers can be played on a calculator. Oh, and rhythm games can be played on a calculator. Oh, and adventure games can be played on a calculator. ANYTHING can be played on a calculator which is just a pocket PC with a built-in screen with controls and happens to be pre-programmed to work as a calculator.

Long story short, your argument is bad and you should feel bad but you won't because you are a troll. Go back under your bridge and try to collect some tolls.
 

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I'm not saying it has been replicated. I'm saying that it's *possible* to replicated it. As in, most JRPG have very mathematical gameplay, the turn-based ones especially. Even the ones which aren't turn-based tend to be restrictive and linear. I'm proposing that such a game can be ran on the rather weak hardware of a calculator.
As I mentioned earlier, all RPG's can be replicated with a calculator, a pen, a piece of paper and some dice because they all stem from their "pen, paper, dice and maybe a costume if you're THAT hardcore" forefathers.

What you are mentioning is the so-called "human element" where the protagonist has the option to choose paths and influence the overall story (non-linearity, branching story) which is commonplace in western RPG and not so much in eastern RPG due to a different approach towards storytelling.

Western RPG's are more focused on the role-playing aspect and how the story is moulded by the characters involved wheras japanese RPG's focus on the often grandiose and "epic" plot with the characters only tagging along for the ride.
 

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What you are mentioning is the so-called "human element" where the protagonist has the option to choose paths and influence the overall story (non-linearity, branching story) which is commonplace in western RPG and not so much in eastern RPG due to a different approach towards storytelling.

Story branching is mostly for visual novel in eastern market.
 

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Story branching is mostly for visual novel in eastern market.

That's mostly because Visual Novels are composed almost entirely of the story element wheras in traditional JRPG, a lot of the "substance" is replaced with repetitive grinding for the sake of grinding rather than smooth progression to artificially increase the length of the game. //Criticism
 

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Any ways of removing that MASSIVE poll from the main home screen?
I wanna be able to see all recent posts of forum :/ annoying to see this every time I go back main screen or refresh..
 

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I wonder how many pokatards i voted with to get the JRPG to the top of the list. Looking down, /waves at the 3rd person shooter category, I like 3PS, but there arent a lot of games that lend them selves well to a 3PS well.
 

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That's mostly because Visual Novels are composed almost entirely of the story element wheras in traditional JRPG, a lot of the "substance" is replaced with repetitive grinding for the sake of grinding rather than smooth progression to artificially increase the length of the game. //Criticism

I haven't grinded in a jRPG in years.

Some games do do what you say, however most jRPGs these days you only have to grind if you suck and need to decrease the skill level required by making the game easier.
If you'd like to avoid grinding I suggest you turn the difficulty down till you can handle harder ;)
 

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I haven't grinded in a jRPG in years.
Either you have been extremely lucky with your choices or you have already been psychologically conditioned to accept this bad practice. By grinding I don't necessarily mean having to backtrack for the sake of leveling up - I mean bad pacing which is "fixed" by means of combat.

JRPG's are prime offenders in this regard, not all of them, but the great majority. There's a difference between providing an acceptable level of challenge and throwing enemies that the player has no chance of defeating at him. One of the more commonly-known JRPG tropes are so-called "invisible enemies" or "random encounters", in some games you can't make two steps without running into a bunch of baddies.

This is a remnant of the olden days when video games were unable to show an excessive number of detailed sprites, today it serves no purpose other than extending the gameplay time and preparing you for possible upcoming boss battles. Running from those encounters will lead the characters to be underpowered when the time for the final encounter comes, not running from them is a massive waste of time.

This is poor pacing - the game should establish a balance between combat and exploration. Role-playing games are about playing roles - throwing enemies at the players at completely random times, especially overpowered ones is a sign of poor DM'ing in real life and bad game design in computer games. There's more to adventure than just combat while you're getting from one place to the other.

There are JRPG's which nullify this problem by introducing visible enemies or visible groups of enemies so that the player can avoid them when the purpose of entering the world map is not leveling up but exploration - this is done in "Ni No Kuni" or the "Dragon Quest" games. There are also games which introduce items that allow you to avoid battles when you do not wish to run into them, such as "Pokemon" and its "Repel", however this begs the question how well the game is actually made if it has items specifically designed to combat its own battle system.

With good pacing, a moderate number of battles should be able to prepare you for the boss you're about to encounter. This is because in a good RPG experience isn't only gained from battle, but primarily for questing and other interaction the DM deems worthy of rewarding. Moreover, a good RPG gives the player rewards not only in the form of experience but also items.

With JRPG's, especially early on, I find myself grinding outside of a town ahead of schedule either to build up my stats or my abilities or to gain enough gil for the most expensive weapon in the town's store - as a player I shouldn't be doing that, the game should offer me opportunities to gain these abilities and equipment by a variety of means.

Of course this is just the tip of the iceberg - you could write a whole essay about common JRPG problems. You might say that this is a few isolated cases, but you and I both know that's not true. In a lot of ways, this kind of structure is somewhat expected, this is what the target audience actually "likes" - I suppose it stems from the traditional "systematicness" of Asians in general. These "problems" are especially apparent in Korean MMORPG's which are more often than not completely fixated on the idea of "grinding outside of the town", or at least that's my impression.
 

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At what point does it become a pain to grind in the Final Fantasy games? Eight? They progressively get babied up as well. There comes a point where the adventure gets boring and so do the action/battles.
"Final Fantasy" tries really hard to nullify the problems plaguing JRPG, but it does so awkwardly. By creating the so-called "Final Hallway" they completely destroyed an important aspect of RPG's in general - exploration. The player is lead through the games on a string and even though the stretches between battles have become more sensible, there is nothing that you can do in-between of those battles - you must follow the hallway. It's as if Square-Enix was screaming "please give us a break, we just want to make movies". The times when people used "Final Fantasy" as an example of a "good" JRPG are in the distant past, clamwaters.
 

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"Final Fantasy" tries really hard to nullify the problems plaguing JRPG, but it does so awkwardly. By creating the so-called "Final Hallway" they completely destroyed an important aspect of RPG's in general - exploration. The player is lead through the games on a string and even though the stretches between battles have become more sensible, there is nothing that you can do in-between of those battles - you must follow the hallway. It's as if Square-Enix was screaming "please give us a break, we just want to make movies". The times when people used "Final Fantasy" as an example of a "good" JRPG are in the distant past, clamwaters.

I am not and never have been a part of those people who claim that, foxxi. So have they always been bad or did they gradually get bad? Plus they got into the movie industry in VII... Uh, stretches between battles have become sensible? You mean the difficulties have become more sensible. I don't care if battles happen every 4 steps. As long as I have the power to defeat them, that's fine with me. (Plus it'll make it easy to level up without having to grind... and as long as I have enough items or gotten them from the last battle *rambling*)
 

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I am not and never have been a part of those people who claim that, foxxi. So have they always been bad or did they gradually get bad?
The problem isn't with whether they got bad or not (although the quality did drop as time went on) but with the fact that times moved on, and they moved on one way while "Final Fantasy" went the other, kind of.
Plus they got into the movie industry in VII...
They've gone into the movie industry before that with "Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within" and before that they also released a "Final Fantasy" TV series, but you're missing my point.
Uh, stretches between battles have become sensible? You mean the difficulties have become more sensible.
The difficulty isn't as much a problem as the fact that you have to go through the whole song and dance that comes with the battle - the intro sequence, the battle itself and the outro sequence. This doesn't improve the game - this wastes your time (and often times it does so deliberately to artificially increase the length of a game without a whole lot of substance).
I don't care if battles happen every 4 steps.
Well then you enjoy grinding. If that's what you're looking for, fine, but do know that this is not "good RPG", this is a turn-based action game.
As long as I have the power to defeat them, that's fine with me. (Plus it'll make it easy to level up without having to grind... and as long as I have enough items or gotten them from the last battle *rambling*)
There has to be a balance between the level of the enemy and your own level. The battle has to provide a challenge to mentally engage you, when you're not engaged and start tapping the button waiting for the battle to be over then you're already bored. If the whole battle revolves around "pressing A to win" then there is no game and the design is poor. Your choices in battle have to matter. If they don't matter because your characters are overpowered at a given point then there are no stakes and as such there is also no tension and the game just wastes your time. If you are underpowered not because of ineptitude but because the game wants to stall you with an overpowered enemy that's not a boss, the game is simply punishing you for playing it. A good RPG shouldn't reach either of those extreme ends of the spectrum.
 

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There has to be a balance between the level of the enemy and your own level. The battle has to provide a challenge to mentally engage you, when you're not engaged and start tapping the button waiting for the battle to be over then you're already bored. Your choices in battle have to matter. If they don't matter because your characters are overpowered at this point then there are no stakes and as such also no tension and the game just wastes your time. If you are underpowered not because of ineptitude but because the game wants to stall you with an overpowered enemy that's not a boss, the game is simply punishing you for playing it. A good RPG shouldn't reach either of those extreme ends of the spectrum.

Right, I walked into this cave in Xenoblade and got my ass kicked by a creature 3 times my level. Annoying. I didn't know I was supposed to be grinding before that.
 

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Either you have been extremely lucky with your choices or you have already been psychologically conditioned to accept this bad practice. By grinding I don't necessarily mean having to backtrack for the sake of leveling up - I mean bad pacing which is "fixed" by means of combat.

JRPG's are prime offenders in this regard, not all of them, but the great majority. There's a difference between providing an acceptable level of challenge and throwing enemies that the player has no chance of defeating at him. One of the more commonly-known JRPG tropes are so-called "invisible enemies" or "random encounters", in some games you can't make two steps without running into a bunch of baddies.

This is a remnant of the olden days when video games were unable to show an excessive number of detailed sprites, today it serves no purpose other than extending the gameplay time and preparing you for possible upcoming boss battles. Running from those encounters will lead the characters to be underpowered when the time for the final encounter comes, not running from them is a massive waste of time.

This is poor pacing - the game should establish a balance between combat and exploration. Role-playing games are about playing roles - throwing enemies at the players at completely random times, especially overpowered ones is a sign of poor DM'ing in real life and bad game design in computer games. There's more to adventure than just combat while you're getting from one place to the other.

There are JRPG's which nullify this problem by introducing visible enemies or visible groups of enemies so that the player can avoid them when the purpose of entering the world map is not leveling up but exploration - this is done in "Ni No Kuni" or the "Dragon Quest" games. There are also games which introduce items that allow you to avoid battles when you do not wish to run into them, such as "Pokemon" and its "Repel", however this begs the question how well the game is actually made if it has items specifically designed to combat its own battle system.

With good pacing, a moderate number of battles should be able to prepare you for the boss you're about to encounter. This is because in a good RPG experience isn't only gained from battle, but primarily for questing and other interaction the DM deems worthy of rewarding. Moreover, a good RPG gives the player rewards not only in the form of experience but also items.

With JRPG's, especially early on, I find myself grinding outside of a town ahead of schedule either to build up my stats or my abilities or to gain enough gil for the most expensive weapon in the town's store - as a player I shouldn't be doing that, the game should offer me opportunities to gain these abilities and equipment by a variety of means.

Of course this is just the tip of the iceberg - you could write a whole essay about common JRPG problems. You might say that this is a few isolated cases, but you and I both know that's not true. In a lot of ways, this kind of structure is somewhat expected, this is what the target audience actually "likes" - I suppose it stems from the traditional "systematicness" of Asians in general. These "problems" are especially apparent in Korean MMORPG's which are more often than not completely fixated on the idea of "grinding outside of the town", or at least that's my impression.


We've been agreeing on a whole lot lately (even if I haven't explicitly posted my agreement). Personally, I've only been recently really getting into jRPGs, though I had played a couple when I was younger. The two main issues you bring up in grinding and random encounters are pretty big for me when looking for a game in the genre to play.

I tried playing Earthbound, for example. It had visible enemies, and even a nice feature where if you snuck up on an enemy from behind you'd get a free attack. Unfortunately, though, it could be rather difficult to avoid enemies even though you could see them, and if they caught you from behind, they'd get a free attack. To go along with that, the game required grinding as there wasn't much you could do with the battle system to compete against higher-leveled opponents and you'd be under-leveled if you didn't grind. As a result, it wasn't a game I very much enjoyed.

Chrono Trigger, on the other hand, had visible enemies that were quite avoidable, the battle system was deep enough that you could overcome a level disadvantage, and there wasn't much need for grinding. It was well-paced, non-linear, and a game that showed what the genre was capable of.

Quite a number of games, at least older ones, are more along Earthbound's lines, which are not to my preference, but I've also played a few games more along Chrono Trigger's lines, which has gotten me digging through the genre to find more of the ones that are done right. I like the genre, it's just unfortunate that so many of the games in the genre have random encounters and unbalanced leveling.
 

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