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[POLL] U.S. Presidential Election 2016

Whom will/would you vote for?

  • Laurence Kotlikoff (Independent)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Tom Hoefling (America's Party)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mike Maturen (American Solidarity Party)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    659
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Futurdreamz

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The fact of the matter is that the US government is really not in great shape. Electing Trump would force major changes, but Clinton would just enforce the status quo. As an external observer I honestly believe the states are heading down the path to a messy revolution. Trump could direct the revolution so it happens more graceful, but Clinton will let the problems and resentment build up until the call for blood rings loud and clear.
 

Viri

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I like how myopic comments like this are. Trump, a businessman who has no reason to wage wars, will drag you into a major conflict, not Hillary who proposes attacking Assad's government in Syria as one of her first tasks should she become president.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...l-reset-syria-policy-against-murderous-assad/

The first item on her list of agendas is to oust a foreign government. Sounds peaceful and non-intrusive.
Don't worry, she'll be sure to be peaceful with one of her biggest donors.

http://i.imgur.com/3RJGIQs.jpg
 

Lacius

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You haven't demonstrated how Islamophobia can be racist because it's impossible to do so, reason being that Islam is a religion, not a race, and you consistently try to equate the term with some form of ethnic background when in reality it's just a system of beliefs. Similarly you cannot prove thst the sun orbits the Earth - that's because it doesn't, even though it might seem like it does for an observer on Earth.
Islamophobia is as much a form of ethnic or cultural racism as antisemitism. If you want to ignore this in favor of a strict definition of biological racism, be my guest. I don't want to argue semantics. If you want to ignore how some words are used colloquially, that's your prerogative. However, it's likely to cause snowballed arguments like this when you do so.

The bolded parts of my statement are not contradictory, you're just having a hard time reading in context - Trump claims that the judge is incompetent not specifically because he's a Mexican and thus his racial and ethnic background somehow disqualify him as a judge, making him an "inferior human". The reason is that being Mexican presiding over this one particular case pertaining Trump who is vocal about his policy regarding sanctions against Mexico introduces reasonable doubt concerning the judge's ability to accurately assess the case and arrive at a fair an unbiased verdict, at least according to Trump. This isn't about the judge's race or ethnic background, it's about the judge possibly having a horse in the race, however unlikely it may be. One is a matter of race, the other is a matter of association - two completely different matters. You're conflating this with racism when it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with a very particular set of circumstances. You don't want a judge or jury composed of people against whom you're supposedly committing a perceived wrong - that's not how an unbiased court works. In fact, both are supposed to be unaffiliated and in no way connected to the subject matter at hand.
To say a judge's heritage will lead to bias and/or incompetence, so he or she shouldn't be allowed to do one's job, is racist. Trump's rational is irrelevant to whether or not it's racist.

You haven't "demonstrated" that Trump is a racist - you're just saying that he is, and you probably honestly do believe that he is, but there's a difference between the two which often escapes you.
Yes, I have: with definitions and examples. You just disagree with my use of the word racism.

All I'm going to say is that I am diametrically opposed to everything you've said so far, but I'd gladly defend your right to make a complete ass out of yourself on the Internet to the death because it's incredibly entertaining to talk to you - each time I just feel like I'm talking to an alien.
Snide remarks like these are why we can't have nice things. Don't take this conversation so personally, particularly when it's one about semantics. I know you think you need to defend your original points and be right, but it's okay to concede things every once in awhile if one's goal is to come away from a conversation with more truth and knowledge than before. It's okay to admit, for example, that a libertarian solution to discrimination in the marketplace doesn't exist, regardless of whether or not you think there should be a solution, and it's okay to admit that Trump has said racist things depending on one's usage of the word racist.

I like how myopic comments like this are. Trump, a businessman who has no reason to wage wars, will drag you into a major conflict, not Hillary who proposes attacking Assad's government in Syria as one of her first tasks should she become president.
There's a lot left to be desired regarding Secretary Clinton's foreign policy, but Donald Trump has advocated for going into Syria with "tremendous force," "bombing the shit" out of the middle east, allowing more countries to have nuclear weapons, "taking out" family members of ISIS, expanding torture, and more.

I think it's fair to characterize Clinton as hawkish, but the lesser of two evils is obvious here.

The fact of the matter is that the US government is really not in great shape. Electing Trump would force major changes, but Clinton would just enforce the status quo.
I agree with this characterization. I think Secretary Clinton would largely enforce the status quo, which I believe is very preferable to the negative change Donald Trump would bring.

Donald Trump got more votes in the primary than any GOP candidate in history.
And Secretary Clinton received more primary votes than Donald Trump.

At this point, even the liberal extremists themselves are coming out and admitting that Hillary has virtually no chance of winning.
Some liberals like to argue that Senator Sanders had a better chance of winning against Donald Trump (the evidence for this isn't conclusive), and they're trying to frame the election as an "I told you so" moment if Trump wins. However, aggregate polling shows Secretary Clinton with a narrow lead against Trump. Nationally and in many swing states, she's currently ahead by about two or three points, and in almost the rest of the swing states that most models say she doesn't need to win if everything else stays where it's at, it's virtually tied.

In other words, both candidates have a very real chance of winning, so it's unfair to say either has "virtually no chance of winning," and neither side should get complacent. However, I would much rather be Clinton right now. Nate Silver's polls-plus model puts Clinton's chances of winning at around 61% and Trump's at around 39%.
 
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Foxi4

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Islamophobia is as much a form of ethnic or cultural racism as antisemitism. If you want to ignore this in favor of a strict definition of biological racism, be my guest. I don't want to argue semantics. If you want to ignore how some words are used colloquially, that's your prerogative. However, it's likely to cause snowballed arguments like this when you do so.
If you want to claim "culture racism" then A) say so in the first place, as there's a difference between it and strictly race-oriented "racism" and B) we'd have to establish whether or not "Muslim" is a culture, and I don't think it is, more on that later. The term is stupid and unnecessary, "xenophobia" is perfectly servicable in this instance. I don't see why organizations such as the UN would use a phrase like "cultural racism", it comes across like "oven fridge" or "flying car". It's what it says on the tin, the word doesn't seem applicable from a linguistic point of view.
To say a judge's heritage will lead to bias and/or incompetence, so he or she shouldn't be allowed to do one's job, is racist. Trump's rational is irrelevant to whether or not it's racist.
Absolutely false. You don't want the judge presiding over a case to belong to a group affected by the defendant in order to avoid a conflict of interest, no matter what that group might be. This has nothing to do with superiority and/or inferiority, it's supposed to eliminate conscious and subconscious bias. To think of a random example, you wouldn't want a jewish judge presiding over a case concerning a vocal anti-semite, specifically because the anti-semitic angle. Even a slim possibility that a judge might rule based on personal feeling casts a shadow of doubt on the proceedings, and you definitely don't want that.
Yes, I have: with definitions and examples. You just disagree with my use of the word racism.
As does Merriam-Webster.
Snide remarks like these are why we can't have nice things. Don't take this conversation so personally, particularly when it's one about semantics. I know you think you need to defend your original points and be right, but it's okay to concede things every once in awhile if one's goal is to come away from a conversation with more truth and knowledge than before. It's okay to admit, for example, that a libertarian solution to discrimination in the marketplace doesn't exist, regardless of whether or not you think there should be a solution, and it's okay to admit that Trump has said racist things depending on one's usage of the word racist.
It's not snide, it's honest - I do feel like I'm talking to an alien. I'm not taking the conversation personally, this is just the way I speak nornally - I'm a part of the Hateocracy, I suppose. No harm, no foul.

We've already discussed how the "libertarian marketplace" regulates itself, you just didn't accept that it does which is fine - there's no need to go back to that.

I'm not going to "admit" that Trump has "said racist things" because I'm yet to hear him say them - in all previous cases I could find a logical explanation based on the situational context, and I'm not even trying that hard. Your "depending on your usage of the word racism" clause basically comes down to "using it correctly" versus "using some weird extended definition vomited out by a liberal hugbox think tank" - as a linguist by trade I stick to the dictionary definition. If I were on the side of the road with a flat tire, I need a spare wheel, but not a spare bicycle wheel. I concede that the phrase exists, but I don't find the definitions interchangeable.

Speaking of definitions and "cultural racism", let's bit for a moment. You compare muslims to jews - this comparison is thoroughly unfair. Unlike muslims, Jews are widely accepted as an ethnoreligious group. The religion isn't really expanding by much and as a group the Jewish population has remained relatively isolationist since Hebrew times. The Jewish people are connected to one another not just by religion but also by common ancestry, customs, language etc. - all the necessary building blocks of a culture. As such, "Jewish" is an accepted ethnicity, muslim or christian is not. The muslim religion encompasses a vast number of different ethnicities, different cultures following different customs, so I would probably draw a more sharp distinction there.

In the spirit of "conceding", I can tell you that I don't agree with Trump in this particular instance - I don't think the background of the judge is relevant, but that doesn't mean that I'm unable to understand his position. To quote Aristotle, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" - this is one such case. As I've mentioned before, I would defend your right to say things I find nonsensical in the same way if the situation was reversed.
 

Lacius

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If you want to claim "culture racism" then A) say so in the first place, as there's a difference between it and strictly race-oriented "racism"
I did, from the beginning.

The term is stupid and unnecessary, "xenophobia" is perfectly servicable in this instance. I don't see why organizations such as the UN would use a phrase like "cultural racism", it comes across like "oven fridge" or "flying car". It's what it says on the tin, the word doesn't seem applicable from a linguistic point of view.
You have a right to your point of view, I suppose. I don't really care if you think it's necessary or not though.

Absolutely false. You don't want the judge presiding over a case to belong to a group affected by the defendant in order to avoid a conflict of interest, no matter what that group might be. This has nothing to do with superiority and/or inferiority, it's supposed to eliminate conscious and subconscious bias. To think of a random example, you wouldn't want a jewish judge presiding over a case concerning a vocal anti-semite, specifically because the anti-semitic angle. Even a slim possibility that a judge might rule based on personal feeling casts a shadow of doubt on the proceedings, and you definitely don't want that.
The case has nothing to do with race, and Trump's the one making it about race. Learn what conflict of interest is, because to say a judge cannot meet the job description of impartiality as evidenced solely by race/ethnicity is racism. If there's a court case involving the prosecution of an alleged Nazi who killed the judge's family during the holocaust, that's conflict of interest. If there's a neo Nazi who allegedly did an unrelated crime, the Jewish judge is presumed impartial until shown otherwise. I refer you to your own comments on how burden of proof works.

As does Merriam-Webster.
You should read your own sources. What I've said about how the word racism is popularly used stands.
Dictionaries are often treated as the final arbiter in arguments over a word’s meaning, but they are not always well suited for settling disputes. The lexicographer’s role is to explain how words are (or have been) actually used, not how some may feel that they should be used, and they say nothing about the intrinsic nature of the thing named by a word, much less the significance it may have for individuals. When discussing concepts like racism, therefore, it is prudent to recognize that quoting from a dictionary is unlikely to either mollify or persuade the person with whom one is arguing.

It's not snyde, it's honest
In what world does saying I'm making an ass out of myself contribute anything substantive to this conversation? As for whether or not it's snide, I refer you to Merriam-Webster. It's probably in your bookmarks.

We've already discussed how the "libertarian marketplace" regulates itself, you just didn't accept that it does which is fine - there's no need to go back to that.
If it worked, we wouldn't have a problem.

I'm not going to "admit" that Trump has "said racist things" because I'm yet to hear him say them - in all previous cases I could find a logical explanation based on the situational context, and I'm not even trying that hard. Your "depending on your usage of the word racism" clause basically comes down to "using it correctly" versus "using some weird extended definition vomited out by a liberal hugbox think tank" - as a linguist by trade I stick to the dictionary definition. If I were on the side of the road with a flat tire, I need a spare wheel, but not a spare bicycle wheel. I concede that the phrase exists, but I don't find the definitions interchangeable.
Having a degree in linguistics, I can tell you that no real linguist takes such a prescriptivist approach to language. This is going to have to be one of those agree to disagree issues. Like I've said a hundred times, I don't care about having an extended argument about semantics.

Speaking of definitions and "cultural racism", let's bit for a moment. You compare muslims to jews - this comparison is thoroughly unfair. Unlike muslims, Jews are widely accepted as an ethnoreligious group. The religion isn't really expanding by much and as a group the Jewish population has remained relatively isolationist since Hebrew times. The Jewish people are connected to one another not just by religion but also by common ancestry, customs, language etc. - all the necessary building blocks of a culture. As such, "Jewish" is an accepted ethnicity, muslim or christian is not. The muslim religion encompasses a vast number of different ethnicities, different cultures following different customs, so I would probably draw a more sharp distinction there.
I thought about the fairness of this comparison when I made it, but cultural Islam exists. Cultural Christianity exists. And many in the United States take an us vs. them approach that fits a very real definition of racism, regardless of whether or not you're offended by it.

In the spirit of "conceding", I can tell you that I don't agree with Trump in this particular instance - I don't think the background of the judge is relevant, but that doesn't mean that I'm unable to understand his position. To quote Aristotle, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" - this is one such case. As I've mentioned before, I would defend your right to say things I find nonsensical in the same way if the situation was reversed.
This is why I don't think our conversation is useful, because it's just a matter of semantics.
 
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Foxi4

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I did, from the beginning.

You have a right to your point of view, I suppose. I don't really care if you think it's necessary or not though.

The case has nothing to do with race, and Trump's the one making it about race. Learn what conflict of interest is, because to say a judge cannot meet the job description of impartiality as evidenced solely by race/ethnicity is racism. If there's a court case involving the prosecution of an alleged Nazi who killed the judge's family during the holocaust, that's conflict of interest. If there's a neo Nazi who allegedly did an unrelated crime, the Jewish judge is presumed impartial until shown otherwise. I refer you to your own comments on how burden of proof works.

You should read your own sources. What I've said about how the word racism is popularly used stands.

In what world does saying I'm making an ass out of myself contribute anything substantive to this conversation? As for whether or not it's snide, I refer you to Merriam-Webster. It's probably in your bookmarks.

If it worked, we wouldn't have a problem.

Having a degree in linguistics, I can tell you that no real linguist takes such a prescriptivist approach to language. This is going to have to be one of those agree to disagree issues. Like I've said a hundred times, I don't care about having an extended argument about semantics.

I thought about the fairness of this comparison when I made it, but cultural Islam exists. Cultural Christianity exists. And many in the United States take an us vs. them approach that fits a very real definition of racism, regardless of whether or not you're offended by it.
You were claimimg racism from the get-go, not the bizarre "cultural racism" you pulled out of a hat now.

It's fair for you to not care - in fact, I prefer that, I'm libertarian-leaning after all. Let's not dwell into that though, that's not the subject.

Believing in the notion that a jewish judge would be appropriate to judge a Nazi is exactly why you come across like an alien - you refuse to aknowledge any form of racial kinship where it's obvious and push it strongly where it doesn't exist. An average human would expect another human to hold a grudge against someone who's wronged the group they belong to - not you, you expect humans to have the capacity to completely suspend their bias. I don't because I don't expect humans to work like machines. Take 9/11 for an extreme example - it is fair to assume that Americans hated Bin Laden because he committed an atrocity against Americans, whether or not you were directly affected, meaning members of your family died in the attack, is irrelevant.

Speaking of MW:

Racism (Full Definition)
  • 2: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

  • 2: racial prejudice or discrimination
Am I missing something? Are we seeing a different dictionary?

As for linguists being prescriptivists, I'm not one - I realize that definitions are fluid and the most paramount aspect of meaning is active use. Where we differ is that my social circles use the word according to its etymological roots wheras yours are more liberal - surprise, I guess. As a side note I'll add that I too have a degree in linguistics, so the appeal to authority won't work, we're on equal footing.

It might be an argument over semantics for you, but if the semantics change the whole subject matter then they're relevant. It's a lot like the case of "manslaughter" versus "murder" - the end result is the same, a dead body, but how we got to it is relevant. I don't question the fact that Trump is often times a huge asshole, I question whether it has anything to do with race and claim that it doesn't.

As for being "snide", I'm not "unkind or insulting indirectly" - I don't hide my Hateocracy. To the contrary, I put it on a pedestal for everyone to see. In fact, I hold the belief that everyone should point out everything that's wrong at all times - that's love to me. If I call someone "a stupid idiot", it means that I took the time out of my busy schedule to think about them. That's more care than I give to most people, an honourable position to be in. Perhaps there's a grain of being a psycho/sociopath in there, but how would I know? I'm not an expert.

What makes this conversation extremely entertaining to me is the fact that Trump's approach towards muslims and immigrants, meaning "it only takes one bad egg, thus we should stop them all", is the exact same narrative pushed by the liberal circles when it comes to gun control. "It only takes one shooter to kill dozens of people, thus we must ban guns altogether" is the kind of absolutism that reminds me of the grey reality - we're all afraid of each other at all times, we're all xenophobes in some way. Trump's fear of muslims is no different than the average democrat's fear of an NRA member, they just "logic their way" into those positions in different ways. And here I am, sitting and scratching my head, wishing that everyone just minded their own business and stuck to their own lawn without worrying too much about what others are doing on theirs, the libertarian way.
 

Lacius

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You were claimimg racism from the get-go, not the bizarre "cultural racism" you pulled out of a hat now.

It's fair for you to not care - in fact, I prefer that, I'm libertarian-leaning after all. Let's not dwell into that though, that's not the subject.

Believing in the notion that a jewish judge would be appropriate to judge a Nazi is exactly why you come across like an alien - you refuse to aknowledge any form of racial kinship where it's obvious and push it strongly where it doesn't exist. An average human would expect another human to hold a grudge against someone who's wronged the group they belong to - not you, you expect humans to have the capacity to completely suspend their bias. I don't because I don't expect humans to work like machines.

Speaking of MW:

Racism (Full Definition)
  • 2: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

  • 2: racial prejudice or discrimination
Am I missing something? Are we seeing a different dictionary?

As for linguists being prescriptivists, I'm not one - I realize that definitions are fluid and the most paramount aspect of meaning is active use. Where we differ is that my social circles use the word according to its etymological roots wheras yours are more liberal - surprise, I guess. As a side note I'll add that I too have a degree in linguistics, so the appeal to authority won't work, we're on equal footing.

It might be an argument over semantics for you, but if the semantics change the whole subject matter then they're relevant. It's a lot like the case of "manslaughter" versus "murder" - the end result is the same, a dead body, but how we got to it is relevant. I don't question the fact that Trump is often times a huge asshole, I question whether it has anything to do with race and claim that it doesn't.

As for being "snide", I'm not "unkind or insulting indirectly" - I don't hide my Hateocracy. To the contrary, I put it on a pedestal for everyone to see. In fact, I hold the belief that everyone should point out everything that's wrong at all times - that's love to me. If I call someone "a stupid idiot", it means that I took the time out of my busy schedule to think about them. That's more care than I give to most people, an honourable position to be in. Perhaps there's a grain of being a psycho/sociopath in there, but how would I know? I'm not an expert.

What makes this conversation extremely entertaining to me is the fact that Trump's approach towards muslims and immigrants, meaning "it only takes one bad egg, thus we should stop them all", is the exact same narrative pushed by the liberal circles when it comes to gun control. "It only takes one shooter to kill dozens of people, thus we must ban guns altogether" is the kind of absolutism that reminds me of the grey reality - we're all afraid of each other at all times, we're all xenophobes in some way. Trump's fear of muslims is no different than the average democrat's fear of an NRA member, they just "logic their way" into those positions in different ways. And here I am, sitting here, wishing that everyone just minded their own business and stuch to their own lawn without worrying too much about what others are doing on theirs, the libertarian way.
We're going round and round, so I'm done. Thanks for the conversation.
 

Lacius

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What makes this conversation extremely entertaining to me is the fact that Trump's approach towards muslims and immigrants, meaning "it only takes one bad egg, thus we should stop them all", is the exact same narrative pushed by the liberal circles when it comes to gun control. "It only takes one shooter to kill dozens of people, thus we must ban guns altogether" is the kind of absolutism that reminds me of the grey reality - we're all afraid of each other at all times, we're all xenophobes in some way. Trump's fear of muslims is no different than the average democrat's fear of an NRA member, they just "logic their way" into those positions in different ways. And here I am, sitting here, wishing that everyone just minded their own business and stuch to their own lawn without worrying too much about what others are doing on theirs, the libertarian way.
A majority of liberals don't take such an absolutest point of view, so I don't think it's a fair comparison. There's a difference between banning guns altogether and common sense gun regulation that minimizes gun violence without being too burdensome to responsible gun owners.
 

Foxi4

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A majority of liberals don't take such an absolutest point of view, so I don't think it's a fair comparison. There's a difference between banning guns altogether and common sense gun regulation that minimizes gun violence without being too burdensome to responsible gun owners.
Yes, that is what they say, but they rarely elaborate on what the "responsible regulation" is. When pressed, at least in my experience, they just tend to be afraid of guns even existing. They're against open carry because the sight of a gun scares them, they're afraid of closed carry because they can't see who's armed and who isn't and thus they feel threatened. Nothing seems to be "reasonable", at least nothing short of just removing guns from the equation altogether.

If you can't carry openly or secretly, how can you carry? What kind of additional "checks" should be implemented? Is this a case of bad PR caused by NRA members ready to reenact Die Hard at all times or is it just a matter of being afraid of guns? What should be pulled back? According to a quick Google search, 41% of American households have at least one gun and the average gun owner owns 8 guns, twice as many as two decades ago. A 2007 survey shows that there are 112.6 guns per 100 citizens out there, that's 1.126 guns per capita. There are literally more guns in America than people, and that's strictly legally owned, registered guns. How do you responsibly control that? An interesting subject that I'd love to talk about, now that we're finally done with (perceived?) racism.
 

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Yes, that is what they say, but they rarely elaborate on what the "responsible regulation" is. When pressed, at least in my experience, they just tend to be afraid of guns even existing. They're against open carry because the sight of a gun scares them, they're afraid of closed carry because they can't see who's armed and who isn't and thus they feel threatened. Nothing seems to be "reasonable", at least nothing short of just removing guns from the equation altogether.

If you can't carry openly or secretly, how can you carry? What kind of additional "checks" should be implemented? Is this a case of bad PR caused by NRA members ready to reenact Die Hard at all times or is it just a matter of being afraid of guns? What should be pulled back? According to a quick Google search, 41% of American households have at least one gun and the average gun owner owns 8 guns, twice as many as two decades ago. According to a 2007 survey there are 112.6 guns per 100 citizens out there, that's 1.126 guns per capita. There are literally more guns in America than people, and that's strictly legally owned, registered guns. How do you responsibly control that? An interesting subject that I'd love to talk about, now that we're finally done with (perceived?) racism.
I doubt all pf them are legally owned however. Plus what is considered "legally owned" varies by state.
 
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